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Originally posted by zaavia: *
China is going for better relationship with India and Russia to counter growing US's role in the region. Pakistan as a puppet state of US? What about now? Arent we a defacto puppet state of US even now?
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Honestly i dont define us a puppet state yet, as the CE has not be forth coming on everything. He still manages to anger the American Govt with Kashmir, not providing all the help required for certain things. It is a cat and mouse game, rather it is poker. Never show your full hand, call the other mans bluff and make sure you have a contigency plan for when things get screwed up. I trust the majority of the people at the head of the country.
I dont trust many if not all of the politicians. But the FO, Military, ISI etc. They are full of hard working men, so egotistical and after power and money, but many are working for the country. I dont think for a second that the people would accept the way things would be if we were a puppet state. We are Saudi or Kuwait that someone else can walk all over us. It didnt happen in the 80s. Hell it didnt happen in the 90's when the Presseler Amendment was implemented. We told the US to bugger off and we continued on our way.
Politics is fuild and not based in black and white. Rather it is all gray. So China can be good friends with both India and Russia that does not mean its commitments to Pakistan are less. Also everybody knows that India wants to be the leader of the third world. But India is seen as a future ally and a possible rival, depending on which stance India takes vis a vis the Americans. Right now it is doing everything except for jumping in Bush's lap and saying "i want your baby". The Chinese as alwyas will adopt a watch and see approach.
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Thats not the case, we have always been used and then dumped afterwards. Right now we are again being used like the past, its just to be seen when they will dump us. After independence, Russia wanted to have a friendly relationship with us, but we went towards the Americans. We joined two defence agreements with the Americans, namely SEATO and CENTO, according to which the Americans were obliged to help Pakistan in any war with India. But during the 1965 and 1971 war, instead of helping us, they even stopped delivering weapons to us. In 1979, they needed us again, so they paid us, used us. Although the fundamentalism/heroin/klashnikov culture and other social problems were due to Pakistan's involvement in the Afghan war. When American interests were fulfilled, with the destruction of USSR, Pakistan was left alone to handle millions of Afghan refugees. Later with the detonation of a nuclear device, sanctions were imposed on us. The sanctions remained till 911. Pakistan paid for F-16's but couldnt get them, and on the other hand the Americans are loading the Indians to their teeth.
Is this the response to our friendship? The Americans have made it clear over and over, that in any Pakistan-India war, they would support the Indians.
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Absolutely correct. I agree with everything you said. That is why i say we have to becareful and get substantial gains monetarily and physically for all this. We should demand elimintion of our 4 billion dollar debt for the US for a positive vote in the UNSC. Congress has to pass the bill, get our debt written off and then we vote yes. With the US you have to haggle and do arm twisting. So them that they cant control us 100%. That worries them. They see Pakistan as a problem, not because we are unstable or a "failed state" but because even though all the fact ups that have happened, we are still pretty solid on the International arena. Many Pakistanis under play the role Pakistan plays in the world. My friends who are posters here are guilty of the very same.
However the stats are different. We play 2 roles in the Islamic world. We are the political voice as well as the one true military force that is independent to an extent and extremely we established. That is the one reason egypt fears us. Because we have the ability to negate their influence and power in the middle east in a matter of minutes. It was only until 1971 that the Islamic world saw us as a small member. From 1947 to 1971 Saudi looked up to us. We were training so all the diplomatic officers of the Middle East. Heck we still do it for most African Muslim Nations and CIS countries. It is only after 1971 and the whole political situation in the 90's that we became the younger idiotic brother. Otherwise we were the Dada to the Islamic world.
Boy do i ramble on or what? :D
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Seeing the past, its clear that the Americans have always used Pakistan at will and not the other way around.
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Agreed, so why dont we use them as well?
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This is the exact reason why the world would want to see Pakistan disarmed. Since they fear the day when Pakistan's nuclear weapons fall into the hands of terrorists. These days the noise of Pakistan's alleged co-operation with North Korea is also to show to the world that Pakistan is not a country to trust, as they could transfer their technology to any rogue country in the world.
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They want to disarm us, they can try. It aint happening. The people would rather die than see our state dismembered and made part of India. They can fear all they want. They can try all they want. If it happens they will have a regional war on their hands that is for certain.
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As far as using the nukes against India is concerned. A few years back, some American think tanks considered a scenario in which Pakistan and India go towards war on Kashmir. Pakistan launches a nuclear attack on India, and US blocks it with its missile shield, and India counter attacks, destroying the big cities and later conquering the rest of Pakistan. They believed that Pakistan would cease to exist by 2010-2015.
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I never believe these so called scenerios. The people work on present knowledge they use for the future. It does not include external events or things like nationalism or the like. Usually they are biased, factually incorrect and extremely one sided. I never pay any attention to them. They try to do Allahs work.
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As far as I see it, the world considers Pakistan to be a source of unstability in the region. I feel they would like the dis armament of Pakistan, after which they wouldnt have any problem with the disintegration of Pakistan, or its accession with India. Since they want to see a strong India, and Iran minus the present mullahs to stand up against China. And Pakistan is the only thorn in materializing their dream.
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Agreed again. But it wont be easy. Like i said we arent Iraq or Afghanistan. We have a strong military force and nukes. They wont dare use force against us, in fear of a wider all out nuclear war.
against our muslim brothers n sisters in afghanistan…
