Pakistan must confront Saudi-financed madressahs

While India and Israel are Pakistan's enemies, neither RAW nor Israeli agents have destroyed Pakistan as much as Saudi-financed madressah mentality.
Reason is that India/Israel are known enemies and the nation is united against them. But Pakistan is divided when it comes to violent extremist madressahs, because of religion. This makes them more damaging than either RAW or Israel.

These madressahs teach intolerance towards other Muslims, considering them kafir/mushrik/munafiq if they don't agree with them. And since they support violent means to achieve their version of shariat, it leads to their waging "jihad" against other Muslims (whom they DON'T consider Muslims).

This is exactly what they did in Afghanistan. They waged "jihad" against Northern Alliance since they did not consider them Muslims. Similarly, they kill other Muslims in Pakistan even in the mosques. Example: Swat mosque attacks by Taliban.


If Pakistan wants to be a CITADEL of Islam then it needs a vibrant economy. And economy can only be improved when there is peace and security, so that businesses can grow. And madressah-led insurgency, due to extremely violent goals, is the OPPOSITE of peace and security.


These madressahs are the MAJOR reason Pakistan is in abyss today, and sadly, the major financiers of these violent madressahs come from Middle Eastern sheikhdoms. Pakistanis tend to turn a blind eye to these financiers because they think Saudis are Pakistan's biggest "friends". What we overlook is the amount of destruction these "friends" have caused in Pakistan by their financial support of enemies of Pakistan and Islam in the form of violent madressahs.


I see no problem in Pakistan befriending Saudis and other such countries, but Pakistan needs to stop them supporting and financing violent madressahs. Remember, apart from Pakistan, Saudi and UAE were the only two countries in the world which supported Taliban's government that declared "jihad" against other Muslims.
Pakistan has now changed its policies towards extremism, but Saudi support to violent fasadis continue unabated through violent madressahs. Unless these madressahs and their Saudi financiers are stopped, these violent madressahs will continue to make suicide bombers against Pakistani Muslims.


Theirs is the biggest threat Pakistan faces today.

Re: Pakistan must confront Saudi-financed madressahs

A few questions (for my knowledge and not rebuttal of claims made here):

  1. What are the motivation for middle east countries to finance mudrassas?

  2. What is the proof/evidence/indication that it is them who are actually financing madrassas?

  3. Why is India quiet about it?

  4. Any solutions? (abandoning them and not providing alternative education is NOT a feasible solution at this point)

Re: Pakistan must confront Saudi-financed madressahs

Khoji my dear, please leave your sectarian bias (from which i beleive, ur hatred for saudi gov originates) and think like a Pakistani. And ponder over the following.

Is there any motive for Saudis to Sponsor Talibs in Pakistan?

The answer is certainly No. On the other hand they have evrything to loose. A rise of extremsim in Islamic world more a threat to Saudis than any other country. Bcoz such "purist" extremists always want to acquire holy lands under their control to get more legibility. One such example was attempted trouble in Haram in 80s.

Secondly, Saudis themselves have been fighting extremism in their country, they have themselves been target of suicide bombers. There has been massive crackdowns of AlQaeda people. The members of banned outfits in Pakistan like Lashkar-e-toiba working in KSA, have either been arrested in KSA or have ran back to Pakistan.

IS their any evidence of Saudi Sponsorship of Extremists?


AT present, none whatsoever. Yes they have lended money to Talibs perhaps in past, why? Bcoz just like Nawaz and Musharraf run to Saudis for getting favours, in past Pakistani governments endorsed financing of Afghan Mujahideen And Taliban. If at all Saudi money came to Talibs, the cause is Pakistani endorsers and not Saudi. Similarly if some people collect funds in names of building mosques and charity and then re route it to extremists, then Saudis should not be blamed for it.

KSA and UAE accepted TAliban government also on behalf of Pakistan.

In terms of international politics KSA and IRAN have been closest allies of Pakistan, Iran being teh second best.

KSA also sponsored Pakistani nuclear programe on request of Bhutto.

Is Everything Perfect About KSA?


Definitely not. Its a very racist society towards south asians. For that matter all Gulf states are. And the funny thing about it that most of this discrimination against Pakis takes place at hands of ethnic Iranis who have attained citizenship of Gulf states.

Re: Pakistan must confront Saudi-financed madressahs

DD, you need a detailed reply, but for now I would only reply to this:

This would have been true if Saudi money to extremist madressahs was happening in Pakistan ALONE. But it is a world wide phenomenon.

Richard Holbrooke: U.S. ambassador to the U.N. in the Clinton administration
I think that one of the tragedies of this story is that the Saudi Arabians exported their problem by financing the schools, the madrassas, all through the Islamic world. I saw this in Uzbekistan a few years after Uzbekistan got out of the Soviet Union, became an independent state in cities like Tashkent and Samarkand, where the Saudis were funding these schools teaching Koranic studies and creating a class of people for whom education was simply the Holy Book, the Koran.

Consider these two arguments of yours:

  • extremism is not in Saudi interest because “extremists always want to acquire holy lands under their control to get more legibility”
  • Saudi supported Taliban as a favor to Pakistan.

These two arguments are in opposition to each other. What is important for Saudi? A very obvious threat to its own security by supporting extremists or favoring Pakistan?

The answer should be the former. Why would Saudi put its own security in danger only to grant favor to Pakistan?

Also, if Saudi endorsed Taliban’s radical regime as a favor to Pakistan alone then why did UAE do that too? And why not any other country grant such “favors” to Pakistan while putting their own security at risk?

I think it is time for Pakistanis to rise above their sectarian bias and look at what Saudi/UAE/etc. financing has done to Pakistan’s destruction.
All money coming to Pakistan from anywhere in the world should be welcome. But this money should only be used in establishing research facilities and universities. It should not be used to make future suicide bombers.

Re: Pakistan must confront Saudi-financed madressahs

Conspiracy theories at best. Please provide something concrete.

The stupid bloke Holbrooke also said Saddam possessed weapons of mass destruction. You really want us to take him seriously?

Of course! No one’s suggesting that Iqbal was anti-Pakistan.

Its only the concept of having pakistan#1 and the Islam#2 which is being refuted.

You do understand that loving your country, and being a nationalist are two totally seperate things. Prophet (sas) loved Makkah but he wasn’t a nationalist…and when the time he came he fought his own people and tribesman in Badr and Uhod.

Oh Bhai,

the concept of "nation state" did not exist among the nomadic tribes until late 19th early 20th century.

Nothing against Arabs. Just look at Native Indians (or Red Indians). They didn't have the concept of nation state either. You go to the aborigines of Australia. They didn't have the concept of nation state.

Please understand, there is no point in going back to Mohammad pbuh's time and place to look for things that could not possibly exist in that society.

It is like to trying to find the example of "snow boots" wearing Arab tribes. That ain't gonna happen. Snow fall DID NOT exist in the areas where most of the Arab culture has evolved.

Here is how societies "generally" evolve.

  1. tree dwelling primitives
  2. Cave men
  3. families
  4. tribes (small and relatively unorganized)
  5. Big organized tribes (who may control lessor tribes through force or taxation)
  6. city states
  7. nation states

Thus Arab culture of Mohammad pbuh's time was somewhere at #4 or #5. Therefore we cannot find examples for #6 or #7 from the culture back then.

You seem to have closed eyes when it comes to the root cause of Pakistan's problems.
Holbrooke is just one example. There are several other references available. Just search internet.

Re: Pakistan must confront Saudi-financed madressahs

^ Please do that for me and provide a credible evidence.

Even your signature is a link to a 'working paper' which means the research is not good enough to be published in a reputable publication.

As I said, I do not know much about the financing of violent madrassas in Pakistan by Saudis. I would just shut up if you guide me to the source of your information. I do not give a $hit about what the mega liar Holbrooke says.

Re: Pakistan must confront Saudi-financed madressahs

^ What do you consider a "credible evidence?
And what do you want to be proven?

A working paper is not a fabrication either.

Kaka!

There are two main thrusts of your arguments. One is correct, and other one is incorrect.

  1. You say Saudi GOVERNMENT cannot be funding these Madrassahs.

Well that's true. People seldom blame Saudi government. Instead they are accusing "private charities".

  1. You say it is a conspiracy to implicate private Saudi charities with funding violent Jihadis in Pak.

This is not correct.

Let's for a moment ignore the terrorism etc. associated with Madrassahs.

OK?

Let's assume there are different "brands of religious schools" in pak who are getting money from overseas.

If there is a "staunch (but not extremist) Shia Madrassah" in the city X of Pak, and it is getting help from overseas who do you think is most likely the "main source" of their funding?

You think their money is coming from Iranian "charities" ? or Saudi Arabian "charities"?

Same way if there is a catholic school in the city X of Pak. Do you think Saudi charities will provide the "main source of funding" for that school, or some Christian organization based in the West will run the show there?

Similarly if there is a Wahabi brand of Sunni Madrassah in the city X of Pak. Do you think Iranians will be the main source of its funding? or some people from Gulf or Saudi will run the the theme?

Again, no blame game, no accusations, we are just discussing the "mostly likey" "main source" of money for a specific religious school in Pak.

That's all.

Thank you.

Funding on request of Pakistan was pre-9/11 thing and working against these groups post 9/11.

If you say that Saudis funded Madrassas pre-9/11 to propagate their version of Islam i will not contest it, so did Iranians and are still doing.

The post 9/11, is totally different, they themselves realized that lot of this money was channeled to extremist and it was stopped altogether. Some people in their personal capacity are still doing it, is possible, but i don;t see any thing to imply Saudi government or Saudi society as a whole being behind organizing or funding extremists anywhere in Pakistan.

True

largely true. Even though Saudi government tried, it took a while before the major flow of money was "officially stopped", unofficially however it has never stopped.

But no one is blaming Saudi government for "officially funding" extremism in Pak.

Then why some Pakistani jump up from their chair and start arguing in favor of Saudi government?

We all know that Saudi government's "official" stance is now against the extremism due to many factors.

However we should also not forget that Saudi royal family is bitterly divided on the "extremist Islam" and "peaceful Islam".

The royals are banning and attacking each other on mundane things like TV and movies and on much more complex level such as "interpretation of Sharia and Jihad". Don't you read newspapers about Saudi? We all know how an important prince just survived a suicide attack. That clearly shows that extremist factions of Saudi royals are ready to kill the other.

The point is that Saudi royal family (that ultimately is the Saudi government) and their security apparatus has turned into at least two main factions. One that is pro-extremism is the one that funds and protects Jihadis "inside" and "outside" Saudi.

Saudi King these days, is riding the two tigers. I hope and pray that Saudi King succeeds in continuous control of extremist tiger and not get "eaten" by it.

Oh and BTW Pakistan should be self confident enough to encourage the "peaceful-version of Islamic factions" from Saudi, and keep a strict watch on the "extremist" faction.

And I believe at the government level Pakistan has started, though much belatedly to watch and control the gulf-flow of "extremist charity" money to Pak. Although it is a daunting task in the face of deep involvement of the gulf in Pak finances, hawala scheme, and above all our "mental" subservience to the a typical Arab "charity" form Gulf in the name of our religion. The same mental subservience that springs up in defense of Saudis whenever we discuss the extremist finances flowing into Pak.

DD:

[quote]
Funding on request of Pakistan was pre-9/11 thing and working against these groups post 9/11.
[/quote]

It's interesting that when you talk of Saudi funding to Pakistani madressahs, you add "on request of Pakistan". Why being so apologetic? It looks like you yourself understand that such a funding was not exactly the right thing to do for Saudi, and therefore you try to absolve them by adding "on request of Pakistan".
First of all, Saudi were not funding "on request of Pakistan". Pakistan never formally requested Saudi and its people to send money so that Pakistan could establish the madressahs. At least I am not aware of any such request. Let me see the reference if you know of this request from Pakistan.
Secondly, I said it earlier that Saudi funding to madressahs has been a GLOBAL PHENOMENON. That is, this funding is NOT specific to Pakistan alone. If it were specific to Pakistan ONLY THEN you could have argued that it was "on the request of Pakistan". Fact is that Saudi and its people fund such madressahs without asking for permission from host country.

But I do understand why you added "on request of Pakistan" there. Saudis were funding madressahs with full consent, information, and willingness of Pakistan governments and agencies, even though no formal request had been made to them. These people in Pakistan were nurtured by "Ameerul Momineen" Zia, under whose "Islamic" military dictatorship the seeds of current destruction of Pakistan were sowed. These people were from "jihadic" (read "fasadic") ISI of that time, and also included populist leaders like Nawaz Sharif, besides religio- political organizations like Qazi Hussain, Fazlur Rehman, Samiul Haq, etc.

So much for the discussion on "On Request of Pakistan" thing. Now let's see another important conclusion of yours.

[quote]
Funding on request of Pakistan was pre-9/11 thing and working against these groups post 9/11.
[/quote]

I am amazed at how casually you said above, without realizing the impact of it.
As you said above, Saudi funding was being sent to madressahs without any checks before 9/11. So the event which made them think again was actually related to AMERICA. Both Saudis AND Pakistani jihadic leaders had NO concern about what this aid was doing to Pakistani (and Afghan) society. Both Saudis and Pakistani jihadi elements KNEW FULLY that some of these madressahs had training camps established in Afghanistan and Pakistan, where people were trained in killings of minorities in Pakistan. This was 90's, when these madressah-trained fasadis used to bomb shi'i mosques almost daily, and used to kill some high-profile shi'i person every other day.
Both Saudis and Pakistani jihadi govt elements KNEW all these killings were being done by madressahs which were getting financed by Saudi and other Middle Eastern countries, but they did NOTHING to prevent it.
Ordinary Pakistanis at that time were immune from this madressah-orchestrated violence against minorities. Therefore nobody raised much concern about teachings and trainings of violence in the name of Islam by these madressahs. At that time, we Pakistanis forgot that this gennie of extremism was causing intolerance to grow exponentially in society. Minority communities were being DESTROYED by this Saudi-backed jihadi menace, but neither Saudis nor Pakistani jihadi ISI did anything to stop these mass murderers in the name of religion.
Moreover, these Saudi-backed madressahs, declared jihad on their fellow Muslims in Afghanistan. There they were responsible for killings of thousands of innocent Afghan people. And since these jihadis were being backed by Saudi-financed-madressahs and Pakistani jihadi ISI, therefore Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, along with UAE, were the ONLY countries in the world that recognized Taliban government in Afghanistan. So we see that Saudia did not recognize Taliban "as a favor to Pakistan", like you have suggested.

All this changed after 9/11. Saudi- and Pakistani-backed madressah govt of Taliban also had developed relationship with international extremist forces. So after 9/11, Saudis and Pakistani jihadi ISI and army found themselves confronting Amreeka-bahadur. That is more than any of them could take. So after 9/11 there was no option left for Pakistani ISI and army except to make a U-turn in its support to Talibanic fasadis and go with "with us" option given by Bush. Similarly, Saudi financing of internal extremist madressahs was also exposed by Amreeka-bahadur. Thus they had no option left but to stop at least five such charities.
Saudi closure of these charities was a clear sign that Saudis could not deny their hands in financing extremist jihadism around the world, including Pakistan and Afghanistan.

[quote]
The post 9/11, is totally different, they themselves realized that lot of this money was channeled to extremist and it was stopped altogether.
[/quote]

How naive of Saudis that they realized ONLY after 9/11 through Amreekis what their money was doing in Pakistan and Afghanista. How can you believe that they did not know it themselves?
And how can you be sure that it was stopped ALTOGETHER? They only stopped charities which were of concern to America, but their financing of madressahs elsewhere would not have stopped because it was of no concern to Americans.

Re: Pakistan must confront Saudi-financed madressahs

I appreciate that you are hurt by the violence perpetrated against your sect in Pakistan, which rest of the people considered wrong but never paid as much attention to, as they should have. I am afraid that your response and for that matter response of many people, can be best described as knee jerk. Which is demonise a whole lot of Pakistani community at any cost without understanding teh consequences of it.

I would say, that instead of being emotional read my response with a cool, rational mind.

When i say "on request of Pakistan" or "on Pakistan's endorsement", this means funding of Mujahideen militias during war against Russians and later that of Taliban. I do not mean that funding Madrassas was on Pakistani request. As for funding of madrassas is considered, it was always through charities, which most people never thought were involved in extremism.

ISI as an institution has never been about shia, sunni, or deobandi brelwi thing. It worked as the then government asked it to do, it never at any rate collaborated agianst any minority. Your accusation that ISI turned a blind eye to all that is unjustified. Nobody even among teh highest level had that much idea of what exactly was going on in the lawless land of Afghanistan. An example of that is Benazir Bhutto a shi'i herself, but, she continued the policy of helping Taliban during her tenures.

I agree that Zia is most to blame in fueling the Jihadism in Pakistan, a side effect of which is INTOLERANCE, that resulted in sectarian violence in Pakistan.

I do not agree with you that Saudis are divided on extremism, they have done everything to combat it practically.

As for the mental subserviance, i would be the last person to have any empathy or respect for Arabism.

The gist of my talk is: 1- Leave the sectarian thing out of this, what we need to do is promote sectarian tolerance and not villification, because in the end it will backfire against the minorities. 2- Saudi government on international front has been one of Pakistan's closest allies, it will be disastrous to loose that when there is hardly anyone standing by us in international community.

First of all, Benazir was NOT shia. But may be it explains your support of Nawaz Sharif. ;)
Benazir being shia was a result of smear-campaign against PPP. This is similar to allegations of Altaf being shia, or Shaukat Aziz being Qadiani.
Fasadi extremists have never been ashamed of telling lies to further their agenda.

This is what you don't understand. It is NOT about any particular sect. This violence has damaged Pakistan's security and distorted Pakistan's society. And Saudis and ISI knew the activities of their jihadi madressahs, BUT DID NOTHING TO STOP IT, until after 9/11.

What I am saying is that Pakistan and its society have suffered more because of its affinity to Saudi-funded-madressahs than what it has gained through Saudi support.
This culture of violence is the cause of abyss that Pakistan is in today. And the root cause of this crisis emanates from Saudi funding of violent madressahs in Pakistan.
So it is not just about a particular sect or a minority group.

Here is more on how Saudi-madressahs damaged Pakistan and the average Pakistani.

I told you earlier that Saudis and Pakistani jihadi ISI/army were funding and supporting these madressahs, whose "illuminaries" had initiated a program of target-killing of minorities throughout Pakistan. While average Pakistani was not directly getting effected by this violence (only minorities),** but it did result in culture of violence and breakdown of the rule of law in Pakistan.**
Also, Saud-madressah-educated students had a negative effect on Pakistan's Kashmir policy. Madressah students were used by ISI and army to fight India in Kashmir. Initially, Kashmiris supported them because they really dislike India. But as the time passed, madressah-organizations showed their extreme intolerance towards their fellow Muslims in Kashmir as well. Goodwill was thus lost between Kashmiris and madressah-organizations supported by Pakistan. This is similar to what happened in Iraq and Swat. This resulted in Kashmiris getting suspicious of Pakistan's support. Before madressah-organizations started their activities in Kashmir, people were overwhelmingly in support of joining Pakistan. But after they saw extreme hatred of these organizations even towards Muslims, many of them started campaigning for Independent Kashmir.

Thus due to Pakistan's support to madressah-organizations, Pakistan's Kashmir policy suffered enormous damage.

Re: Pakistan must confront Saudi-financed madressahs

Khoji, you are getting off topic here.

I am not claiming the Saudi Government/Charities are not funding madrassas. I am just looking for some ideas on how and why, if they are. Why could they not be entirely internally financed through local sources? I do not think it takes huge funding to run a madrassa and a lot of people used to donate for the 'Kashmir cause'.

Anyone closely following the religious extremism in Pakistan would know that among all sorts of Madrassahs only two particular sects' madrassahs are the source of extremism or have been one in the recent past.

  1. A particular sect of Sunni fiqh (involved in 90% or more terror incidents)
  2. A particular type of Shia fiqh (12vers involved in a relatively smaller number compared to their Sunni counterparts).

Given that all Madrassahs have equal opportunity to raise funds locally in Pak, how come these two types of extremist organizations standout.

The reason is simple. One particular Sunni sect is getting money from their masters in the Gulf. And the other Shia sect is getting money from the so-called religious leaders in Iran.

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