pakistan Indian divide in UK - report

I have not been able to trace the original report mentioned in this article. However I think that the conclusions of the report are stated correctly, and it should give pause to question, at a minimum, whether this is acceptable and if not, then what should be done?

Patel vs Rasul: The great UK divide
by RASHMEE Z. AHMED http://www.timesofindia.com/Articleshow.asp?art_id=1579940ONDON:
**The great sub-continental divide is alive and well, 7,000 miles away from India and Pakistan as Britain digests the news that people like 12-year-old ethnic Indian Abhay Patel and his Pakistani classmate Ahmed Rasul will grow up to be painfully different.

According to a new government study, boys like Patel are more likely to be white-collar workers and pillars of British society. For Rasul, the future may be bleak and in the dole queue.

The Patel-Rasul question is likely to become Britain’s biggest policy headache in the next decade, even as Britain shivers with shame at the fact that three British Pakistanis are interned by the US as fanatical al-Qaeda prisoners in Camp X-Ray and there is rising evidence of economic and social deprivation among British Bangladeshis and Pakistanis.

The study, commissioned by Prime Minister Tony Blair, is stark about the impact of ethnicity, religion and class on life, livelihoods and living standards.

It says that Britain’s Pakistani Muslims are three times more likely to be jobless than Hindus.

Indian Muslims do better than those from Pakistan or Bangladesh. But Indian Muslims, it says, are twice as likely to be unemployed as Indian Hindus.

Bangladeshi men are more likely to find jobs as cooks. And one in 20 Indian men is a doctor, a ratio 10 times higher than for white men.

So how confusing is this in the case of Patel and Rasul, two friends, who look like brothers from south-east London and speak a bit of so-called chutney Hindustani for fun, though their language of choice is English?

Sociologists say there is no contest at all. Patel is from an environment that pushes him to succeed. If Rasul does well, they say, it would be inspite of his circumstances.

Patel’s mother teaches at a school and his father works in a bank. His older sister is a lawyer and he goes home to India just once a year.

Rasul’s father owns a small business. His mother stays at home, looking after the five children. The family often have visitors to stay from Pakistan and they spend extended holidays there themselves, forcing the children to miss weeks of school.

The gap between the two families is one of aspiration, say sociologists, and this is why the report finds the average Indian Hindu three times more likely to prosper than his Muslim counterpart from Pakistan.

The study appears to be uncompromising about the role of religion, warning that “the odds of being unemployed do vary with religion”, but it also finds racism to be a huge drawback.

The colour bar is the one point at which Patel and Rasul remain equally disadvantaged, which may be small consolation for Britain’s South Asian community of mainly one-million Indians and 700,000 Pakistanis.**

Well, I started a related post a long time ago, comparing the achievements of Bengali Hindus and Muslims. You can find it in Religion forum unless they deleted it!!

I think the report is based on facts, clear for anybody to see.

I can't understand why Religion has to come in the way of Worldly success for Muslims.

And I don't think other communities are targeting them or preventing them from success.

I know few Muslim programmers but a lot of Muslim Cabbies!!

I mean I don't know why. Like I have Punjabi friends. My attorney and my instructors are Punjabi Hindus here in US. The guy whose cab I prefer to take is a Punjabi Muslim from Lahore.
No I am not stereo typing. This cabbie has friends working in IT industry, one a south Indian, another Shia-Pakistani.
SO it is not like, Muslims are dumb or backward, just that their numbers in 'White COllar' professions are not commensurate with their population.

That is why pakistani formula. only way to compete with non-muslims is to get rid of them.

Well, Pakistaniformula doesn't work in UK unfortunately!!

pakistan's educational policy is
based on a caste system. The type of social and economic segregation that defined the Brahmin as being superior to the untouchable Harajin may now be on the decline in India but
is alive and thriving in Pakistan.

do even know what you're talking about?
Dont confuse India with Pakistan. Caste system in India has died down, but alive and well in Pakistan? Since when did Pakistanis ever have caste syst

Well, rvikz could be right after all.
You see Caste is like Alcohol. It could lead to problems to excess.
Now what rvikz seems to be saying is that

1.India acknowledged Caste is a problem and is trying to deal with it.

2.Pakistan never even acknowledged the problem. In medical terma it is called ‘Denial’.
Go to the nearest Alcoholics Anonymous and they will tell you all about denial

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I've read the report it's in the cabinet office UK's web site and is only interim, from what I know , it shows etnnic gaps rather then Religious ones, for example Indian Muslims are better of then Pakistani ones in certain fields.

Andhra mian,

you seem to know a lot about AA just like the comprehensive knowledge you have of ISI. Any reasons in particular for that?

Man, maybe I should learn how to do the stupid smilies too.

Andhra mian,you seem to know a lot about AA just like the comprehensive knowledge you have of ISI. Any reasons in particular for that?<<

Sambrialian bhai,
Assalam Alaikum

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Yes, I do have a lot of knowledge about a lot of things , including A.A., but ISI is not my cup of tea.
I was just trying to point out in a different thread, that ISI is more likely to be involved than Hare Krishnas in underhand political activities. Requires no knowledge of ISI. just common sense.

Man, maybe I should learn how to do the stupid smilies too. <<

Believe me smilies are very effective. Infact when you see some of the topics in Religion Forum (Like sneezing and yawning)it is better to type

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than type your comments.

I have no idea what you mean dealing with the problem of caste in Pakistan. There are no castes in Pakistan not in constitution not in practice etc...except for in some rural parts of Punjab and Sindh, where the land owning communities are uptight about family integrity, exculsivity etc...wadeyra is a term used for landowners, while rajput is a semi racial and semi cultural term. SO it is only in some parts of Pakistan where the corrupt landowners have been ignored by the law enforcers do such pathetic and primitive concepts of caste etc.. might be found, in the rest of Pakistan incities, in government in the amry, in the constitution, in the political frmaework, there is no such thing as caste neither is it recognized by anyone. Class system exists in Pakistan like anyother country, not caste system which is an exclusive cultural term for Indian culture.

[This message has been edited by Sultan Toora (edited February 27, 2002).]

http://www.ambedkar.org/research/Dalitsof.htm

Dalits of Pakistan

Surendar Heman Valasai

In Pakistan, Dalits are mainly concentrated in Sindh. Except fewer individuals all of them are landless Haris. According to rough estimates, the Dalit population is 1.5 million in Pakistan. However, no official or authoritative figure is available. A huge majority of them is infact homeless for they have no proprietary rights of the lands they are settled in. In Tharparker, the Dalits form approximately 35 per cent of the total district population. Several hundred Dalit families lost their lands before partition due to forgeries in their ownership documents by influential tax collecting waderas of Tharparker. But illiteracy has plunged them into the darkness. They have separate utensils in rural tea and food hotels. Among the Dalits of Pakistan, Meghwar tribe is considered as more educated. The Kolhis are the most neglected and downtrodden. Many of them have won freedoms from agriculture slavery known here as “private jails” of big landlords. Bheels are also there but their literacy rate is also among the lowest in Dalit tribes.

Most of the Dalits are living in make-shift homes made of wood, and raw mud. However, fewer of them are settled in semi-urban centres.

Dalits of Pakistan are the unfortunate people for having no political leadership. Some MNAs (Members of National Assembly) were elected from Dalits but their politics revolved around making personal and family fortunes.

In Pakistan, before the October 12, 1999 coup, the Dalits had two seats in 217-member National Assembly of Pakistan.

The founder of Pakistani nation, Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah had installed a Dalit Federal Minister for Law, Justice and Parliamentary Affairs. However, thereafter no government has inducted any of the Dalit in Federal or any provincial cabinet as Minister. The Quaid had also given 6 per cent job quota in the federal services to the Scheduled Castes. But in 1998, Nawaz Sharif government converted the “Scheduled Castes job quota” into “Minority quota” due to the influence of caste Hindu and Christian MNAs in a National Assembly session. The two Dalit MNAs (i.e. Dr. Khatumal Meghwar & Kirshan Bheel) didn’t raise any voice against this conversion though the said quota was rarely implemented in the past.

Lack of educated and social reformers among the Dalit population of Pakistan has further pushed them backward despite forming the largest portion of Hindu population.

Though the government takes interest in the complaints of Human Rights violations of Dalits in Pakistan, but the local fiefdoms make it difficult for any government action to reach its finale.

Apart from Sindh, Dalit population is also visible in the Punjab province, especially its Siraiki belt. The lone Hindu and Scheduled Caste seat in the Punjab Assembly always goes to the Dalits in every elections. However, in Sindh, Dalits were only able during the last two elections to get a single seat out of five reserved for Hindu and Scheduled Castes of the province while the rest four seats usually go to the caste Hindus.

In recent Local Bodies elections with last phase being held on joint electorate basis, three Tehsil Naib Nazim (Taluka Vice Chairman) posts were won by Dalits (i.e. Kanjimal Meghwar of Mithi Tehsil, Rawto Kolhi of Nagarparker Tehsil and Dalpat Meghwar of Chachro Tehsil).

A caste Hindu Rajput Ram Singh son of Ran Singh won the District Tharparker Naib Nazim post through the support of his ‘cousin’ Arbab Ameer Hassan a former MNA and son of the sister of Ran Singh Rajput.

The Dalits of Pakistan need concrete efforts to improve their education. There is no institution or organisation in Pakistan which specifically address this issue for Dalits.

nice article, more or less agrees with what I have said, it is only in some areas of the country where the landowners can abuse their power. Much of it was new information for me though. But I am against making special reforms for the so called dalits in social programmes other than in the state legislature. The word dalit should be omitted as soon as possible. It means the opressed one, and since it has no ground in the countrys political genesis it shouldnt exist.

I would like to know about India's dalit. How does your constitution deal with them? Is caste encouraged as part of the cultural heritage from which laws are to be derived? or is it discouraged?
I mean in Pakistan,even though the problem is miniscule, it is recognized as a social evil comitted by the landowners and along with karokari, watta satta etc needs to be obiliterated.