Is Pakistan facing an ideological crisis?
Was the country meant to be Islamic and is Islam the key to holding together its diverse ethnic groups?
What ideological reasons do Pathans have to be in Pakistan rather than Afghanistan? Is it Islam? If so, can Pakistan afford to be secular and follow the kind of policies that Musharraf has followed (i.e. helping the Americans)?
Re: Pakistan - ideological crisis?
LOL, is this a joke? We have had an idealogical crisis since 1947.
Re: Pakistan - ideological crisis?
As one of my friend casually states...we're a muslim nation by name. Either we start acting like a muslim nation, or we should take the Islamic part and be just the Republic of Pakistan.
Atleast by doing the 2nd thing, we'll save the humiliation to other Islamic countries around the world.
Re: Pakistan - ideological crisis?
I am sure you are looking for some diverse opinions on this and will be willing to understand different point of views. From your post, however, it appears to me that you already have answers to the questions you have posted. I am just going to put out some questions as the answer to your questions.
Is Pakistan facing an ideological crisis?
It is an important question, but I must ask first what do you mean to ask? What do you actually mean by Ideological crisis?
Was the country meant to be Islamic and is Islam the key to holding together its diverse ethnic groups?
Do we as a nation have a consensus on the answers of the above questions? And do our diverse ethnic groups follow the same understanding of Islam? Are these diverse ethnic group willing to tolerate different understandings of Islam?
*What ideological reasons do Pathans have to be in Pakistan rather than Afghanistan? Is it Islam? *
Is Islam any better in Afghanistan? Do Pakistani Pakhtoons as a nation want to be part of Afghanistan? Those Pakhtoons who want to be part of Afghanistan, is it because of their love of their religion or is it because of their pride in their ethnicity?
If so, can Pakistan afford to be secular and follow the kind of policies that Musharraf has followed (i.e. helping the Americans)?
Is Pakistan secular? Are there any rules which gives preference to non-Muslims over Muslims? Is it not allowed to follow Islam?
Re: Pakistan - ideological crisis?
Is Pakistan facing an ideological crisis?
It is an important question, but I must ask first what do you mean to ask? What do you actually mean by Ideological crisis?
*All states have an ideology, even ones which are purely nation states like France or Germany. An ideological crisis means a crisis that threatens the ideological foundations of a country, i.e. what holds it together. *
Was the country meant to be Islamic and is Islam the key to holding together its diverse ethnic groups?
Do we as a nation have a consensus on the answers of the above questions? And do our diverse ethnic groups follow the same understanding of Islam? Are these diverse ethnic group willing to tolerate different understandings of Islam?
*There is of course diversity, and perhaps this is what prevents Islamisation. But the majority is Sunni Muslim and what the majority believes in usually prevails, as in Iran. *
*What ideological reasons do Pathans have to be in Pakistan rather than Afghanistan? Is it Islam? *
Is Islam any better in Afghanistan? Do Pakistani Pakhtoons as a nation want to be part of Afghanistan? Those Pakhtoons who want to be part of Afghanistan, is it because of their love of their religion or is it because of their pride in their ethnicity?
*Pakhtunwali seems naturally close to a social order based on full Islamic law. Pakhtun tribesmen and their leaders seem to want full Islamisation, both in Afghanistan and Pakistan. *
If so, can Pakistan afford to be secular and follow the kind of policies that Musharraf has followed (i.e. helping the Americans)?
Is Pakistan secular? Are there any rules which gives preference to non-Muslims over Muslims? Is it not allowed to follow Islam
*Hardly secular. But the half-way house between Islam and secularism hasn't yielded satisfactory results, has it? *
Re: Pakistan - ideological crisis?
since the inception of pakistan we have never been able to determine whether we wanted to be a muslim nation or a secular nation or a secular muslim nation or a theocratic nation. since every one has a different view of the islamic ideals we might not never resolve that question of what kind of islam we want to bring here. we should have declared it long ago that wer are a secular nation in which every person will get the same kind of benefits as long as he is a citizen of this country. religion has only divided this country.
Re: Pakistan - ideological crisis?
pakistan should stick 'la ilaha ilalah' as its unifying phylosophy
everything else invites the sharp sword of division
Re: Pakistan - ideological crisis?
Is Pakistan facing an ideological crisis?
Was the country meant to be Islamic and is Islam the key to holding together its diverse ethnic groups?
What ideological reasons do Pathans have to be in Pakistan rather than Afghanistan? Is it Islam? If so, can Pakistan afford to be secular and follow the kind of policies that Musharraf has followed (i.e. helping the Americans)?
Just like Israel in it's ideological crisis not allowing Palestenians to regain the territory , because if they would they are denying their own existance.
Re: Pakistan - ideological crisis?
Brother, here is my two cents to your questions.
[quote]
Is Pakistan facing an ideological crisis?
[/quote]
Not Pakistan, but some amongst Pakistanis are facing ideological crisis, especially after Zia flirting with Saudi Arabia and divided Pakistan spreading sectarianism. Maybe, crises started when Bhutto started interfering with religion under pressure of retarded so-called religious parties.
[quote]
Was the country meant to be Islamic and is Islam the key to holding together its diverse ethnic groups?
[/quote]
No, it was not meant to be Islamic country (use of religion to unite the country), it was meant to be Muslim country (where people live together, majority calling themselves Muslim).
**
[quote]
What ideological reasons do Pathans have to be in Pakistan rather than Afghanistan? Is it Islam?**
[/quote]
Their ideological reason being same to those living in any country and calling themselves one Nation, as many in different part of Paksitan live in Pakistan and called themselves Pakistan. It is same as many ethnic communities live in Afghanistan, India, Iran, China, Russia, Turkey, etc … still call themselves one Nation. There are many examples when similar ethnic communities are divided between different countries thus are part of different Nationalities, though ethnically they are similar.
Pakhtoons if they want to be part of Afghanistan they could, though if that would happen, than that means they would be Afghans and not Pakistanis and would not be living or would be allowed to freely move for job or business in rest of Pakistan (Punjab, Sindh, non-Pakhtoon NWFP, and non-Pakhtoon Balochistan) unless they make Pakistan their homeland (migrate or opt to stay), become Pakistani and lose their Pakhtoon identity (they could start calling themselves Muhajir in Pakistan or Pakistanis would start calling them whatever Pakistanis would like :)).
I think that economically and on ground reality, probably only Sindh can opt out of Pakistan without losing much, as no one from Sindh go outside Sindh to earn their livelihood and prefer to live in sindh even when they have to struggle.
[quote]
If so, can Pakistan afford to be secular and follow the kind of policies that Musharraf has followed (i.e. helping the Americans)?
[/quote]
Well, I think that Pakistan can only survive as secular country. If Pakistan adopts anything else than being secular, Pakistan would get divided and disintegrated, because present day Islam has so many factions that it can only divide the country (plus Pakistanis are not just Muslims).
Secular means State tolerating, adjusting, protecting, promoting, and respecting beliefs of all Pakistanis, whatever faction or religion they follow, and state keeps itself aloof from religion of individual Pakistanis.
Actually, what I understand, Islamic state is same as what people these days call 'Secular State', as Islamic state gives equal religious rights to all within its boundary but impose some accepted moral and social laws that are common in all religion and in every community. [Read Messaq-e-Madina … the first constitution of Islamic state given by Prophet (SAW)].
Secular state helps Islamic principle … that is also promoted by Quran, and that is … ‘there is no compulsion in religion’ and that ‘no soul on judgment day would bear the burden of another soul’.
In secular state, Islam prospers and wins because in this state people can practice and discuss religion without interference or fear of anyone, learn and know religion of each other, and adopt or convert to the best … and since Islam (true Islam … not misguided Islam of A-Q and Taliban) is the best and most peaceful, people in secular state comes to Islam, adopt Islam as religion and follow Islam without force.
Re: Pakistan - ideological crisis?
*Is Pakistan facing an ideological crisis?*
Not Pakistan, but some amongst Pakistanis are facing ideological crisis, especially after Zia flirting with Saudi Arabia and divided Pakistan spreading sectarianism. Maybe, crises started when Bhutto started interfering with religion under pressure of retarded so-called religious parties.
*Didn't Bhutto do this to counter Afghan subversion in the NWFP under the banner of Pakhtunistan? Wasn't the Taliban created by Pakistan in order to banish once and for all the Pakhtunistan bogeyman? *
What ideological reasons do Pathans have to be in Pakistan rather than Afghanistan? Is it Islam?
....
I think that economically and on ground reality, probably only Sindh can opt out of Pakistan, as no one from Sindh go outside Sindh to earn their livelihood and prefer to live in sindh even when they have to struggle.
*Sindh is dependent on Punjab, being the lower riparian. Punjab can cut off Sindh's water supply. On the other hand, Punjab is dependent on Sindh's Karachi port for essential communication, although it might be able to circumvent Karachi by going via Gwadar. The idea of settling millions of Punjabis in Baluchistan and outnumbering the Baluchis could be part of this strategic move of providing an alternative lifeline to Punjab. *
*If so, can Pakistan afford to be secular and follow the kind of policies that Musharraf has followed (i.e. helping the Americans)?*
Well, I think that Pakistan can only survive as secular country. If Pakistan adopts anything else than being secular, Pakistan would get divided and disintegrated, because present day Islam has so many factions that it can only divide the country (plus Pakistanis are not just Muslims).
*That's all fine, but the legacy of the past is not going to go away so easily. Pakistan created the Taliban - it now has to live with it and also the MMA. *
Re: Pakistan - ideological crisis?
Is Pakistan facing an ideological crisis?****
Not Pakistan, but some amongst Pakistanis are facing ideological crisis, especially after Zia flirting with Saudi Arabia and divided Pakistan spreading sectarianism. Maybe, crises started when Bhutto started interfering with religion under pressure of retarded so-called religious parties.*
Didn't Bhutto do this to counter Afghan subversion in the NWFP under the banner of Pakhtunistan? Wasn't the Taliban created by Pakistan in order to banish once and for all the Pakhtunistan bogeyman? *
I do not think that Bhutto (Z A Bhutto) did anything to counter Afghan subversion in NWFP. Actually, Bhutto started interfering with religion under pressure of religious parties starting campaign against Bhutto after 1977 election ... thus Bhutto bringing religion in state in order to please these parties.
What ideological reasons do Pathans have to be in Pakistan rather than Afghanistan? Is it Islam? ....
I think that economically and on ground reality, probably only Sindh can opt out of Pakistan, as no one from Sindh go outside Sindh to earn their livelihood and prefer to live in sindh even when they have to struggle.*
Sindh is dependent on Punjab, being the lower riparian. Punjab can cut off Sindh's water supply. On the other hand, Punjab is dependent on Sindh's Karachi port for essential communication, although it might be able to circumvent Karachi by going via Gwadar. The idea of settling millions of Punjabis in Baluchistan and outnumbering the Baluchis could be part of this strategic move of providing an alternative lifeline to Punjab.*
Not really. Just like Sindh depens on Punjab, Punjab depends on India, as both get their water share being part of lower riparian in Indus river system (water of all 6 rivers in Indus river system comes to Pakistan from India).
Lower riparian have rights on water secured in international laws. Punjab can harm Sindh water rights as long as Sindh is part of Pakistan and cannot (or not allowed to by Pakistan government) go to international forum to protect their water rights.
Outside Pakistan, Sindh could go to international forum to protect their water rights in Indus water system, and as river Indus falls in sea from shore of Sindh, Sindh has that extra rights on Indus water, because to stop water coming into Sindh from sea, there has to be water in Indus falling into sea through out year (that means, very little chance of any dams upstream).
**** If so, can Pakistan afford to be secular and follow the kind of policies that Musharraf has followed (i.e. helping the Americans)?****
Well, I think that Pakistan can only survive as secular country. If Pakistan adopts anything else than being secular, Pakistan would get divided and disintegrated, because present day Islam has so many factions that it can only divide the country (plus Pakistanis are not just Muslims).*
That's all fine, but the legacy of the past is not going to go away so easily. Pakistan created the Taliban - it now has to live with it and also the MMA.*
Pakistan created Taliban for mutual benefit of Pakistan and Afghanistan, that is to bring law and order situation in Afghanistan so that Pakistan can trade with Central Asia through Afghanistan. Unfortunately it backfired, because Taliban instead of doing any good for Afghanistan, made Afghanistan a pariah state. Throughout Taliban in Afghanistan there was fighting going on in north of Afghanistan, and further, Taliban giving refuge to AL-quaida started making situation outside the region bad too.
MMA is reactionary response of people in NWFP, but I beleive most likely people of NWFP must have learned what it means. It was good that Musharraf government did not interfered much with MMA NWFP government and let the people ride the rule of MMA.
Re: Pakistan - ideological crisis?
Is Pakistan facing an ideological crisis?
It is an important question, but I must ask first what do you mean to ask? What do you actually mean by Ideological crisis?
All states have an ideology, even ones which are purely nation states like France or Germany. An ideological crisis means a crisis that threatens the ideological foundations of a country, i.e. what holds it together.
Despite our slogans, there is still debate on what was the ideological foundation of Pakistan. How come, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, a non-practicing Shia Muslim could have envisioned a Sunni Muslim state?
Was the country meant to be Islamic and is Islam the key to holding together its diverse ethnic groups?
Do we as a nation have a consensus on the answers of the above questions? And do our diverse ethnic groups follow the same understanding of Islam? Are these diverse ethnic group willing to tolerate different understandings of Islam?
*There is of course diversity, and perhaps this is what prevents Islamisation. But the majority is Sunni Muslim and what the majority believes in usually prevails, as in Iran.
*
I don't think it is diversity which prevented Islamisation. Muslims as a combined entity, did not care to develop an intellectual think-tank, which would have brought out solutions for the current world governance. Running an Islamic country will require much more than the implementation of Islamic punishments.
What ideological reasons do Pathans have to be in Pakistan rather than Afghanistan? Is it Islam?
Is Islam any better in Afghanistan? Do Pakistani Pakhtoons as a nation want to be part of Afghanistan? Those Pakhtoons who want to be part of Afghanistan, is it because of their love of their religion or is it because of their pride in their ethnicity?
Pakhtunwali seems naturally close to a social order based on full Islamic law. Pakhtun tribesmen and their leaders seem to want full Islamisation, both in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Personally, I like the ideas in Pakhtunwali code, however, holistically idea itself is non-Islamic. Pakhtunwali is not about creating an Islamic country, it is about creating a Pakhtun homeland. Islam does not condone ethnicities, but actually, it is the opposite message that Islam has brought. Also, the current version of Pukhtoonwali is re-emerging because of secular-socialist Puktoons and not because of the tribals.
Again, there are only a bunch of Pakhtun tribesmen who want Taliban's implementation of Islam. Our tribal brothers and sisters are under suppression from these Taliban's on one side and un-helping government on the other side.
In the end, you asked, "Is it Islam?". Unfortunately, it is not Islam, it is pure nationalism.
If so, can Pakistan afford to be secular and follow the kind of policies that Musharraf has followed (i.e. helping the Americans)?
Is Pakistan secular? Are there any rules which gives preference to non-Muslims over Muslims? Is it not allowed to follow Islam
*Hardly secular. But the half-way house between Islam and secularism hasn't yielded satisfactory results, has it?
*
Where does this secularism step in from? We are an Islamic republic where majority people are Muslims and there is complete freedom to practice Islam the way people want.