Pakistan epicenter of world terrorism - Indian PM

[ehtasab]

No one forced anything on Pak - Pak was using USA the same way as USA was using Pak. Its "quid pro quo" dude. Get out of the victim mindset.

The way I see it, Pakistan even had a choice as late as the early 2000s. Either support the war on terror or be bombed back to the stone age. Mushy obviously made the smart choice.

Do you read what you post? Let me highlight some musings from your writing.

You have taken enough money (mine & other US tax payers) in the name of war on terror. Now quit cribbing and deliver on your part of the deal !!

Why don't you start lobbying in US to stop this war instead? This bloody war has gained nothing but claimed lives of millions of people. Darned Mullah Omar and OBL are not caught, Taliban movement hasn't died, all those billions $$$ are wasted, so many lives lost. This war was a failure and will remain failure.

[mercenary2k]

What, the treaty just grew out of trees? we sat down and signed it out of goodwill because we didn't want people of Pakistan to suffer from thirst and drought. And you paid us back with terrorism!

Have some thinking in addition to memory. Pakistan joined USA to fight USSR in Afghanistan because they knew USSR on its borders is bad for them. It was your own defence, not just USa fighting USSR's growing threat. So don't think it was some act of goodwill on Pakistan's part! And then your guys thought they can pull a double game by getting the same terrorists to usurp Kashmir and find themselves unable to control the monster which has now turned to Islamabad and Lahore and what not

Pakistan joined USA to fight USSR because USSR and India were close allies. And thus to remove this threat on Pakistan's western border, Pakistan joined up with USA to remove the USSR from Afghanistan.

India supporting USSR, angered Afghans and after the Soviets withdrew in 1989, Pakistan started augmenting the indigenous Kashmiris who had risen up after fraud elections in Kashmir in 1989 with battle hardened fighters from Afghanistan.

Then Pakistan decided to secure Afghanistan which had de-evolved into a civil war between extremist Islamic and seculars. They propped up the Taliban to secure Afghanistan and in 1997 Osama and Gang came to Afghanistan brainwashed the Taliban some more and made them even more extremist.

So its not totally Pakistan's fault. Although Zia is much to blame for the Extremist Islamization of Pakistan.

And unlike the Arab countries who can control their populations at the barrel of the gun.

Pakistani dictators are much too weak.

Thats why I have always advocated.

The only way to fix Pakistan is a secular and modernistic Hitler or Stalin type dictator who comes to power and kills all the dissenters.

These include: Tribal Animals, MQM Facists, Punjabi and Sindhi Feudal Lords, Criminal Gangs, Sunni Extremists, Corrupt Politicians and Army Generals.

Only then will Pakistan will be saved.

If not, Pakistan will no longer be a coherent state in 5 years.

[mercenary2k]

Do you read what you post? Let me highlight some musings from your writing.

Why don't you start lobbying in US to stop this war instead? This bloody war has gained nothing but claimed lives of millions of people. Darned Mullah Omar and OBL are not caught, Taliban movement hasn't died, all those billions $$$ are wasted, so many lives lost. This war was a failure and will remain failure.

If they stop the war, Al Qaeda will come back to Afghanistan use it as a training ground and continue to launch bloody terrorist attacks around the world.

[Punjabee_in_USA]

You seem to be making a statement as if this was a conscientious decision made by the entire Pakistani Nation,.... the decision was made by a dictator who made a smart choice for himself , definitely not for the country.

All national decisions are made by the people ruling it, and the public either lives with it or throws them out of power. Do you really think anyone had the patience to poll 150+ million Pakistanis on what they would choose ?

[Punjabee_in_USA]

If you have a problem your tax money is being wasted in Pakistan then you need to start rallying in US to stop this war. US has alread spend billions in useless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan with no end in sight. The terrorists US is fighting are not the ones Pakistan used for Kashmir, these are the ones US used in 80s war in Afghanistan and left when done. Pakistan picked up the pieces and gave it religious color.

Pakistan used the money provided by the US to fight the war on terror, and used it to fund the terrorists fighting in Kashmir. The result is there for everyone to see. After having digested the US aid, you are now talking about the war being thrust on you. If thats the case, you should not have taken the billions in aid from the US.

[system]

Re: Pakistan epicenter of world terrorism - Indian PM

What, the treaty just grew out of trees? we sat down and signed it out of goodwill because we didn't want people of Pakistan to suffer from thirst and drought. And you paid us back with terrorism!

It seems that the 'softness of your heart extends to your head as well'
You unjustly take something away from someone which was theirs..., then only decide to negotiate about it under international pressure, then decide to give less then what was theirs before, then betray on even on this unjust arrangement & call it Good-will .... ,

Have some thinking in addition to memory. Pakistaborders n joined USA to fight USSR in Afghanistan because they knew USSR on its is bad for them. It was your own defence, not just USa fighting USSR's growing threat. So don't think it was some act of goodwill on Pakistan's part!

While I believe your perspective of the situation that the driving force in creating the Mujahadeen & the Afghan war was Pakistan's own defense rather then the US interests in the cold war is extremely naive, but lets assume it to be true for a moment the larger argument is that what we are facing today is an off-shot of what was created in the Past by the US; by people like Zbigniew Brazowski & even if Pakistan's involvement was driven by its own existential interets ; these interests were only threaten because of the larger tussle between the two super powers.
What perplexes me is the complete lack of understanding of the international injustices, sufferings & deprivation that lies at the heart of the terrorism problem you just have a myopic view that its the 'radical ideology'/brain washing that is driving terrorism..., no level of brain washing can create such a large scale willingness to die for any cause, it certainly does not mean that I dont despise those elements which commit these horrible/unjustifiable crimes, what I believe is that there has to be a collective responsibility in the west for what was created for the advancement of western interests. Secondly , there has to be greater understanding at resolving the human problem that lies underneath all this..., it has been over 7 years the world has been only tackling this problem from a military perspective , completely & perhaps conveniently ignoring the injustices & deprivations that lie at the center of this story..., & it has only resulted in aggravating the problem further......, you can never prevail over a people whom you have deprived to such an extent that life & death has no meaning for them...., The argument that the resurgence of terrorism is only because there are rogue elements within the military establishment in Pakistan is also a convenient concoction to dissuade from the core problem , I mean why must the hidden agenda/rogue elements be searched only in the Pakistani establishment...., why must the US establishment in case of 9/11 & Iraq war & the Indian establishment (in the case of Mumbai attacks & in larger context towards de-stabilizing Pakistan) be cleared of all such suspicions when there may & certainly do exhists motives for the same...,
but irrespective of who is calling the shots to me the thing that makes terrorism possible is not the motives of misguider..., but the environment of sufferings & deprevity which enables people to be exploited.

To me the only solution is to give them hope again..., give them something that makes them value their life enough not to lose it. If the world believes its not possible to give them hope...., then slowly but gradually the whole world will be destroyed....,

And then your guys thought they can pull a double game by getting the same terrorists to usurp Kashmir and find themselves unable to control the monster which has now turned to Islamabad and Lahore and what not

I honestly believe this was a great mistake by the millitary establishment at the time , but there are some lessons that India can learn from this, Firstly the 'denial' of the core issues in Kashmir cannot be persisted indefinitly..... , secondly nefariously using the sames elements against Pakistan as India is currently doing through its consulate & spy missions in Afghanistan may result in disintegration of Pakistan... but eventually this will create an un-manageble problem for India

[coffee_cake]

Re: Pakistan epicenter of world terrorism - Indian PM

We should let Kashmir go. Let LOC = IB. We cant get it back, and frankly why would the people of IK want to join PK?

[coffee_cake]

Pakistan joined USA to fight USSR because USSR and India were close allies. And thus to remove this threat on Pakistan's western border, Pakistan joined up with USA to remove the USSR from Afghanistan.

India supporting USSR, angered Afghans and after the Soviets withdrew in 1989, Pakistan started augmenting the indigenous Kashmiris who had risen up after fraud elections in Kashmir in 1989 with battle hardened fighters from Afghanistan.

Then Pakistan decided to secure Afghanistan which had de-evolved into a civil war between extremist Islamic and seculars. They propped up the Taliban to secure Afghanistan and in 1997 Osama and Gang came to Afghanistan brainwashed the Taliban some more and made them even more extremist.

So its not totally Pakistan's fault. Although Zia is much to blame for the Extremist Islamization of Pakistan.

And unlike the Arab countries who can control their populations at the barrel of the gun.

Pakistani dictators are much too weak.

Thats why I have always advocated.

The only way to fix Pakistan is a secular and modernistic Hitler or Stalin type dictator who comes to power and kills all the dissenters.

These include: Tribal Animals, MQM Facists, Punjabi and Sindhi Feudal Lords, Criminal Gangs, Sunni Extremists, Corrupt Politicians and Army Generals.

Only then will Pakistan will be saved.

If not, Pakistan will no longer be a coherent state in 5 years.

100% agree. I blame Zia 99.9%, I'd love to relieve myself on his freaking tomb, the dirty SoB.

A Stalin, brutal, a night of the long knives to clean Pakistan up. A country in order thru sheer terror, but in order. Else Pakistan is finished.

Truth is, Pakistan is sleep walking into oblivion.

[Salahuddin_Ayyubi]

We should let Kashmir go. Let LOC = IB. We cant get it back, and frankly why would the people of IK want to join PK?

That is not for you me or any Tom dick and Harry to decide but the Kasmeeries, bithout the phoren hand ofocurse.

[coffee_cake]

Re: Pakistan epicenter of world terrorism - Indian PM

It is for us (Pakistani people) to decide, why we are chasing a pipe dream with no chance of success?

Kashmir is never going to become 'ours'-nor do I covet it.

[Salahuddin_Ayyubi]

^ Give Kashmiris a chance its theirs do decide not for you or any Tom Dick and Harry! comprendae ????????????????????

[ehtasab]

Pakistan used the money provided by the US to fight the war on terror, and used it to fund the terrorists fighting in Kashmir. The result is there for everyone to see. After having digested the US aid, you are now talking about the war being thrust on you. If thats the case, you should not have taken the billions in aid from the US.

Most of payment to Pakistan was for "reimbursements" to the expenses incurred by Pakistan in supporting US logistically, providing supplies, foods, transportation. Small amount was towards compensation.

[ehtasab]

If they stop the war, Al Qaeda will come back to Afghanistan use it as a training ground and continue to launch bloody terrorist attacks around the world.

AlQaida is still there, they are in Iraq (if we were to believe US/coalition), 7/7 took place much after Afghanistan war which shows that nothing has changed in AlQaida. The only thing that has changed is state of Pakistan, which has deteriorated as a result of this war pushing Taliban fighter in Pakistan and that has created many umbrella Taliban orgs.

[mercenary2k]

Re: Pakistan epicenter of world terrorism - Indian PM

^^ So what you are advocating is surrendering an entire country to a gang of terrorists?

[Punjabee_in_USA]

@ehtasab

Most of payment to Pakistan was for “reimbursements” to the expenses incurred by Pakistan in supporting US logistically, providing supplies, foods, transportation. Small amount was towards compensation.

You just refuse to believe the truth, don’t you ?

THE WORLD - Pakistan fails to aim billions in U.S. military aid at Al Qaeda - Los Angeles Times

But rather than use the more than $7 billion in U.S. military aid to bolster its counter-terrorism capabilities, Pakistan has spent the bulk of it on heavy arms, aircraft and equipment that U.S. officials say are far more suited for conventional warfare with India, its regional rival.

[mercenary2k]

Re: Pakistan epicenter of world terrorism - Indian PM

^^ I don't blame Pakistan for that....

India has been on a frenzy of late buying billions of dollars of weaponry from Russia and Israel

So why can't Pakistan increase its conventional potential

I think USA has to treat Pakistan like China does....

China gives Pakistan weapons and helps out in other areas and USA has to do the same

[hanibal]

Pakistan joined USA to fight USSR because USSR and India were close allies. And thus to remove this threat on Pakistan's western border, Pakistan joined up with USA to remove the USSR from Afghanistan.

India supporting USSR, angered Afghans and after the Soviets withdrew in 1989, Pakistan started augmenting the indigenous Kashmiris who had risen up after fraud elections in Kashmir in 1989 with battle hardened fighters from Afghanistan.

Then Pakistan decided to secure Afghanistan which had de-evolved into a civil war between extremist Islamic and seculars. They propped up the Taliban to secure Afghanistan and in 1997 Osama and Gang came to Afghanistan brainwashed the Taliban some more and made them even more extremist.

So its not totally Pakistan's fault. Although Zia is much to blame for the Extremist Islamization of Pakistan.

And unlike the Arab countries who can control their populations at the barrel of the gun.

Pakistani dictators are much too weak.

Thats why I have always advocated.

The only way to fix Pakistan is a secular and modernistic Hitler or Stalin type dictator who comes to power and kills all the dissenters.

These include: Tribal Animals, MQM Facists, Punjabi and Sindhi Feudal Lords, Criminal Gangs, Sunni Extremists, Corrupt Politicians and Army Generals.

Only then will Pakistan will be saved.

Well i agree with you on this...

[Matrubhoomi]

^^ I don't blame Pakistan for that....

India has been on a frenzy of late buying billions of dollars of weaponry from Russia and Israel

This is a common perception which most of the unltra-nationalist Pakistanis hold or may I say even so called analysts like Zaid Zaman Hamid.

India spending on military preparedness is a threat to Pakistan?? -- Yes.

ARE India's military defence spending directed towards Pakistan?? -- A FIRM NO.

The reason India spends a tiny percentage of it's total budget on defence is because it perceives China's military build-up as FAR GREATER threat to India's geographical stability. For record China's military budget is the biggest and may eventually exceed US given their strict suppression of information and highly undervalued Chinese currency.

Of course pakistani Military leaders and military elites of Punjab take Indian spending as an open challenge and spend billlions in retaliation, but however, the fact remains that, say, if tomorrow India-Pakistan become friendly like US-Canada, even then India's defence spending will continue simply beacuse of China which is a bigger and better organized adversary with an authoritarian rule.

[ehtasab]

^^ So what you are advocating is surrendering an entire country to a gang of terrorists?

We are talking about Afghanistan, not Pakistan. Pakistan can seal the border, close the terrorists from all sides then b!tch-slap 'em.

[coffee_cake]

Re: Pakistan epicenter of world terrorism - Indian PM

Pakistan being paid for US use of its baes, land routes and airspace, plus communications and intelligence etc is perfectly legitimate.

I have many bones to pick with the current situation in Pak, but this is not one of them.