[quote]
Originally posted by ArjunMahavir:
not really. those were paid for in US dollars. BTW is waki really a bad word in chinese?
[/quote]
Wheather US dollars or toilet paper that is beside the point. In order to pit delhi against China this is a new move. So be perpared for a showdown......
Yes waki waki in chinko means wake up smell the coffee.
China is helping Pakistan develop its defence so himself he never haves a problem with India.
China and India have already gone to war back in 1962 so China knows how costly a war can be. So thats why he is helping Pakistan, its not like he actually wants to help a muslim nation. He is seeing his own interest in this thats why he is constantly helping Pak.
Its my own personal opinion.
[quote]
Originally posted by usman_khalil:
**China is helping Pakistan develop its defence so himself he never haves a problem with India.
China and India have already gone to war back in 1962 so China knows how costly a war can be. So thats why he is helping Pakistan, its not like he actually wants to help a muslim nation. He is seeing his own interest in this thats why he is constantly helping Pak.
Its my own personal opinion.**
[/quote]
ukhalil, China was not the loser in the 1962 war, and it was not costly for them. The '62 war that you are referring to was actually a severe border skirmish rather than a full scale war. The Chinese proved how strong they were militarily, and they developed a huge road on one of the most difficult terrains in a matter of days. At that time, communist China was alone and to balance the Soviet association with India, it eyed Pakistan as a prospective ally, and we can thank Bhutto for grabbing hold of this great oppurtunity.
You are saying that China is only supplying weapons to Pakistan just because Pakistan can do the job of wiping out India for them is very wrong. You are being unfriendly and unthankful to a country that saved us in 1965 by providing us with arms when our real allies turned their backs on us. Just becoz the Chinese are not Muslims you seem to put things in a statement like below...
[quote]
So thats why he is helping Pakistan, its not like he actually wants to help a muslim nation.
[/quote]
Who in the first place said China was helping Pakistan just because of the fact that its a Muslim country? Why would they do that? Does the boundary of Pakistan mark the entire Muslim world? No... And besides, why would China kill its own economy and start helping the entire Muslim world, which consists of numerous countries. Like they say in Urdu 'kya china ne tekha uthaya hua hai is cheez ka'?
China sees Pakistan as merely Pakistan and considers it to be a friendly nation, which is why they help us. This also explains as to when they started developing their space program, they setup their first international space tracking station inside Pakistan. They have also played a key role in the development projects in Pakistan, as well as the missile/nuclear technology.
Long Live Pak-China Friendship...
P.S. Religious zealots in Pak have not targetted China so far, just because they know that if they do, they would loose all the (little) support that they have, even though they would love to throw some mud at the Chinese, just because they are 'kuffars'...
[This message has been edited by Spock (edited July 16, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Spock (edited July 16, 2002).]
Real Deal: Kindly, refrain from spoiling discussions by launching personal attacks. Leave moderation issues to the moderators as we are well aware of the issues around this forum. If you are carrying grudge against someone, I advise you not to take it out in this forum.
[quote]
Originally posted by Spock:
** Who in the first place said China was helping Pakistan just because of the fact that its a Muslim country? Why would they do that? Does the boundary of Pakistan mark the entire Muslim world? No... And besides, why would China kill its own economy and start helping the entire Muslim world, which consists of numerous countries. Like they say in Urdu 'kya china ne tekha uthaya hua hai is cheez ka'?
China sees Pakistan as merely Pakistan and considers it to be a friendly nation, which is why they help us. This also explains as to when they started developing their space program, they setup their first international space tracking station inside Pakistan. They have also played a key role in the development projects in Pakistan, as well as the missile/nuclear technology.
Long Live Pak-China Friendship...
P.S. Religious zealots in Pak have not targetted China so far, just because they know that if they do, they would loose all the (little) support that they have, even though they would love to throw some mud at the Chinese, just because they are 'kuffars'...
[This message has been edited by Spock (edited July 16, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Spock (edited July 16, 2002).]**
[/quote]
Spock, you have got all me all wrong. First of all, I didn't say the Chinese lost the war in 1962, there is no way a country like China would lose to a country like India.
And as far as my opinion goes on this Pak-China friendship, I dont know why but this is how I see the friendship between Pak-China.
One other thing I dont get is that China is helping a lot of muslim nation build nuclear capable missiles, is it to taunt USA?
Comparing an american with a chinese, they differ dramatically. An american wouldn't possible do good for a muslim where at the same time a chinese can careless if the person is a muslim or not.
Although, I must admit that China is a good friend to Pak and has done a lot for us.
Long live Pak-China friendship!
Usman Khalil
LONG LIVR PAK+CHINA FRINDSHIP!!!!!
The_Jackal
DO THE INFANTRY PROUD
without united states it would be have
been difficult for india to handle china-pakistan axis. now things changed. if 140 million pakistan have detterent against india
it is much easier for india to have detterent against china.
[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited July 17, 2002).]
its matter of 4or 5 years!coming of awacs,arrow-2,s-300s,akash,greenpine,rajesh systems along with ofek-5 and TES satellites will make a credible nuclear defence shield over india,and then war will be real possibility. and then we will see who helps whom.
A Chinese View Regarding Pakistan
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hula.gif
LONG LIVE PAKISTAN-CHINA FRIENDSHIP
The above statement is as biased and erroneous as they come. As much as Pakistanis are happy to have China’s partnership and support, don’t get all googly-eyed and be blinded to their treatment and tolerance for Muslims. As much as you may hate the US, it is impossible to back that statement up with FACTS.
Here are some FACTS:
*
China continued to crack down on groups it labeled cults and on religious expression practiced outside the aegis of official churches…
An imam “patriotic reeducation” campaign, begun in March, assigned some 8,000 religious leaders to twenty-day sessions stressing patriotism, loving socialism, upholding Party leadership, combating separatism, and the like. In a number of cases, mosques were leveled, clerics arrested, and “illegal” books and audio cassettes confiscated. Before and during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, there was considerable pressure, including threats of expulsion, against students who fasted or observed other religious rules such as the use of headscarves or performance of daily prayers. In December, nine Muslims were arrested for preaching illegally more than twenty times in Bayingolin Mongol Prefecture and for translating the Koran into local languages. In January 2002, it was reported that Ibrahim received a four-year prison term for running a school where English, Arabic, and other languages were taught and for talking about Uighur troubles. The school was forced to close around the time of his arrest in May 2000. He was also part of a group that advocated adoption of Islamic law.*
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/asia/china_update.htm
Compare that to the official US policy of tolerance and equal rights. The US Congress passed a bill in 1999 entitled “A resolution supporting religious tolerance toward Muslims.” (S.RES.133)
*
Whereas the American Muslim community, comprised of approximately 5,000,000 people, is a vital part of our Nation, with more than 1,500 mosques, Islamic schools, and Islamic centers in neighborhoods across the United States;
Whereas Islam is one of the great Abrahamic [sic] faiths, whose significant contributions throughout history have advanced the fields of math, science, medicine, law, philosophy, art, and literature;
Whereas the United States is a secular nation, with an unprecedented commitment to religious tolerance and pluralism, where the rights, liberties, and freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution are guaranteed to all citizens regardless of religious affiliation; *
http://www.religioustolerance.org/islam_01.htm
[quote]
Originally posted by Seminole:
** As much as you may hate the US, it is impossible to back that statement up with FACTS.
**
[/quote]
Ok... Why do I hate the USA? Since it has killed millions of muslims, now you're saying I cant back that up?
Perhaps you should edit your own words and its for the best.
[quote]
Originally posted by usman_khalil:
**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Seminole:
** As much as you may hate the US, it is impossible to back that statement up with FACTS.
**
[/quote]
Ok... Why do I hate the USA? Since it has killed millions of muslims, now you're saying I cant back that up?
Perhaps you should edit your own words and its for the best.**
[/QUOTE]
yahya khan killed more mulsims than anybody else.
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
**
yahya khan killed more mulsims than anybody else.**
[/quote]
What is the figure now, last time it was 3M > 2M > 1>. I have even seen as low as 200K... Please provide your pearls of wisdom.
Yeah look at the source one of them is even “Indra Ghandis speach” yeah right!! Here is an article by a bengali journalist.. its time Bangalis release their commission report like we did.
Bangladesh Gets No Sympathy for 1971
By Mohammad Shahidullah Dated: October 23, 2000 Lately, a lot of attention has been focussed on trial of the Pakistani army personnel who were responsible for the killing of so many innocent people in Bangladesh (then East Pakistan) in 1971. I will try to provide some explanations why such a large-scale killing did not receive the kind of international and human rights groups’ attention it deserved, and why the world did not move for any justice in this case. I will also reflect on how that impacts our psyche as a nation. 1) Credibility: Bangladesh govt. crudely and arbitrarily made up the number of deaths during the 9-month period of 1971. Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, when released from Pakistani prison in Januray 1972, stated the death toll to be 1 lakh in London airport, 1 million in New Delhi airport and 3 million when landed in Dhaka. (Some people suggest that Sheik Mujibur Rahman confused million as English for lakh. But that is a different story). Obviously the number was not based on facts. Later, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman formed a commission to make a survey of the killings and come up with the real number. The commission, after an exhaustive work, came up in 1973 with a death toll number, which was a 5-digit number. The results were published in newspapers briefly. The govt., in an apparent attempt to save it from a big embarrassment, hushed up the commission report and a high level decision was made to continue with the 3 million number publicly. (This is possible only for politicians of third world). Now, a casualty of 20,000 or 40,000 or 60,000 people in a matter of months is not a trivial thing, and is not to be taken lightly. It is a serious tragedy of mankind by any standard and in comparison to other events of the century, which deserved appropriate judicial action. Specially, the people killed were totally innocent to be a target of any army. We, Bangladeshis should not have anything to be ashamed of if the human sacrifice we made for our independence is not in millions, but in tens of thousands. Not many peoples have made that kind of sacrifice for their countries. But as the over-enthusiastic Awami League leadership wanted to take the whole credit for independence to themselves, they thought that by putting a large figure of deaths, they would increase their price in front of everybody. 2) Exaggeration: Another thing to note is that world community is not ready to buy this number of 3 million deaths. They are not as gullible as simple people of Bangladesh who hardly do any diligence behind the numbers. (Even people in India in their private conversations agree that the 1971 death toll number is absurd). They do hair-splitting investigation of everything. A death toll of 3 million over a period of 8 and a half months (266 days) means over eleven thousand people were killed everyday on an average! There is hardly any mechanism that any army can employ to kill that many people in one day (may be except by nuclear bombs) for so many days in a row. It is not possible for any force to kill that many people individually or in groups when the whole population was against the army. (Carpet bombing in Vietnam did not kill nearly as many people as someone would expect). Also, 1971 was in very modern time, and communication was quite developed then. It was highly unlikely that Pakistanis would get away with such a big genocide and the world would not know about it or not do anything about it. India and USSR were very much on Pakistan affairs then, and at least they would not let it slip unnoticed. I would even ask all of us who were adults in 1972 to take a sample survey. How many people did you know personally or your relatives who were killed in 1971? Or how many people did you know who had their relatives killed? Bangladesh is a country where people know each other unlike in USA. It is not difficult to know if people get killed. If 4% of the population was killed in a matter of months, then everybody should have some of their relatives killed. That was not the case. If you consider all the links, you will find that the death toll could not have been higher than what Sheikh Mujib’s commission found out. 3) Political Motive: Bangladesh govt. was never interested in bringing to books the war criminals of the Pakistani forces. All they wanted was to make a political issue out of it and keep it alive. They were afraid that a trial of the criminals (at least 197 by the Awami League govt. account) would bring the matter to a closure, which would deprive them of a propaganda weapon. They wanted to maintain the hatred in public mind so that the Awami League govt. could cover their incompetence and failures in running the country. It also fit well their agenda to keep the Islamic forces in the country suppressed in the pretext that they were a party to the killings and until a trial happens, they will remain guilty in front of the nation. A fair trial of the Pakistani army officers would reveal facts that would cause embarrassments for many big Awami League leaders and clear the names of many of their political opponents who are always accused for taking part in killing without a charge sheet to this day. 4) Lack of Sincerity: The Awami League govt. was hardly concerned about the emotional side of the relatives and friends of the victims. In reality, very few of the Awami League leaders (even lower level ones) had lost loved ones during the 9-month period. (That can be a topic of another article). So there was no sensitivity or sense of urgency for them to work for justice for the relatives of the victims. Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, who did not lose anybody close to him, made behind the curtain deals with the Pakistani premier Bhutto (the person who was probably most responsible for the tragic events of 1971) in exchange of the war criminals. But he continued his high pitch rhetoric in public to keep his political enemies at bay. To this date, the same tactics are being used by the Awami League. When the identified war criminals were in their hands, they let them go and now they are behaving as if the Pakistani govt. rescued their army personnel by some military action. They are fooling the countrymen by their humdrum and shouting in the air for war crime trial knowing fully well that nothing will happen. 5) National Character: We have demonstrated time again how unreliable we are as a nation in giving out information. Especially our politicians have earned such notoriety as far as honesty is concerned that we do not need to elaborate. Even today, we lie about our population. When our population is nearing 150 million, we state it as over 120 million to avoid the disappointment of the donor agencies. We routinely exaggerate the numbers like percentage of literacy by a big percentage. The govts. in Bangladesh are only good at propagating lies, deceptions and falsehoods. They promise things in a flash that they know are not deliverable. They always claim credit for things that have really not happened, and for things they do not have any contribution. When our national budget’s 50% comes from foreign aid, we always boast to pass a ‘surplus’ budget every year, which is totally farcical. These things are good for domestic consumption, but world community knows what goes in our country. Just because everybody is not blunt as Henry Kissinger was does not mean that people outside do not notice things or know things. They just tend to ignore things as petty matters in their big picture. The world community is sensitive enough not to insult the event by openly questioning the 3 million figure, but they all know it is an outrageous lie. So when the world community is consciously working to redress human tragedies in Bosnia, Kosovo, Rwanda, Kashmir, E. Timor, Chili, nobody is inclined to talk about 1971 tragedy of Bangladesh. The western world does not even recognize it as an important event of the century. It is not in the list of top genocides of the century for obvious reasons, although killings of less than half a million people got into the list (Time magazine). Apart from the fact that a considerable time has passed, we ourselves have weakened the case by our continuous dishonesty in this matter. We still hammer on the unrealistic 3 million number and are not willing to reconcile to truth. Because, in some of our hearts, we find our ego getting hurt to admit a mistake. Many of us do not really want a trial of the culprits, but are more interested in keeping a tension current in the region. This gives a good preoccupation for a section of our country, and suits the political agenda of many. Even today when 5 skulls are discovered in a grave in Mirpur, we drum it up as a ‘MASS’ grave. We try to sensationalize a thing that everybody already knows or expects. Because, it fits well with political timing of some special quarters. The situation now is very much like early seventies, and the party in power needs to create a lot of distraction to cover up their misdeeds. We discovered graves with many more skulls in 1972, but then we kept quiet. Why? This is the contradiction we suffer from. If we really believe 3 million people were killed in 1971, then why are we so excited to find a few skulls now? Are not ‘millions’ more supposedly buried in unknown graves? Discovery of 5 skulls does not go any distance to substantiate the 3 million number anyway. Some people will argue that it is an insult to the dead even to question the number of deaths now. But is it? And only ‘anti- liberation’ forces would do so. That is a typical response to many problems that our nation has come to face today. But if you think it carefully, we have insulted their memory more by making a farcical matter it has been reduced to. We have used them as a pawn in the narrow interest of the political parties. That is how we have treated our freedom fighters. Now we are politicizing even the children of the martyrs and using them for selfish propaganda. This is precisely why the sacrifice of our people did not (and does not) get the respect it deserved. This is the reason we did not get any justice in bringing the perpetrators of the crime to book. This has only reduced the honor of the nation to a level that we did not want. The present generation of Bangladeshis are only more confused by all these contradictions. The publicized sacrifice of a huge number “3 million” does not inspire the nation for doing any good for the country and the society. Nobody cares to honor the people who laid down their lives (except for some politically motivated photo ops on certain days of the year). Why? We have deprived the nation of truth by distorting the history. Unless we become conscientious and do the right thing and face the truth, it may be too late to rectify the situation and we, as a nation will live a lie forever! This is called self-deception. Nothing can be more unfortunate for a nation. [The author is a Bangladeshi journalist.]
[quote]
Originally posted by usman_khalil:
** Originally posted by Seminole:
As much as you may hate the US, it is impossible to back that statement up with FACTS.**
Ok... Why do I hate the USA? Since it has killed millions of muslims, now you're saying I cant back that up?
Perhaps you should edit your own words and its for the best.]
[/quote]
I stand corrected. The way my post read could have been confusing. I meant that you can not back up your orignianl post with facts:
[quote]
An american wouldn't possible do good for a muslim where at the same time a chinese can careless if the person is a muslim or not.
[/quote]
I have no doubt you that you hate the US. I can tell from your posts that what you lack in intellectual reasoning is more than made up for with your intense anger and hatred directed at the US.
[This message has been edited by Seminole (edited July 17, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Seminole:
** I have no doubt you that you hate the US. I can tell from your posts that what you lack in intellectual reasoning is more than made up for with your intense anger and hatred directed at the US.
**
[/quote]
Lemme correct you, I do not hate USA, I hate the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT! They come up with such evil plans to kill even more muslims yet really sad to know you happen to be a muslim and support their evil plans.
Again, I do not wanna go in details, there isn't any point. You're just not gonna learn and even though how many facts I post, your knowledge will not accept them since the truth hurts.
Usman Khalil
Also, Seminole, do not go off the topic. We are suppose to be talking about Pak-China friendship in this thread, so stay with the topic.
Thanks
Usman Khalil
Ukhalil, firstly you said that 'china helps other Muslim countries make nuclear weapons'... First of all, they have never truely helped any other Muslim nation other than Pakistan with nuclear weapons. Foreign relations are not based on merely 'that country is Musliing, give them n-tech, or dont give them n-technology'... China helped Pakistan because of a friendship that has lasted for quite some time now, and Pakistan at one point was the most strategic ally the Communist country once had. It also wants its sphere of influence in the region, and would not want to see India bully Pakistan (which India would have certainly done so without our nukes)... They have truly lit our darkeast hours (which we fail to see, just because they helped us avoid them).
[quote]
Originally posted by usman_khalil:
** Lemme correct you, I do not hate USA, I hate the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT! They come up with such evil plans to kill even more muslims yet really sad to know you happen to be a muslim and support their evil plans.
Again, I do not wanna go in details, there isn't any point. You're just not gonna learn and even though how many facts I post, your knowledge will not accept them since the truth hurts.
Usman Khalil**
[/quote]
Its the American people that vote and select the American Government, and the Government is forced to do what the people here want. You cannot say the war against teror in Afghanistan started merely because it was Bush who wanted that... No, this war is pretty heavy when it comes to economic losses and a govt. would love to avoid it, but they were forced to do so because the majority of the nation wanted them to do so. Do you think if it were Clinton/Perot/Gore the situation would have been different? Heck, those guys would have bombed with even more vigour than the present regime...
