… on this war on terror. Does anyone has the current count?
This War on Terrorism casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia entry states 2,235 but there is no reference.
wiki is not a reliable source
Re: Pak Army Casulties.
Our own information sources say 1368 soldiers lost their lives, I’m not sure if this figure includes soldiers/support-staff who were killed in targeted suicide bombings.
However, I think civilian casualty is much more than military.
Good thread bro!
I would humbly add two important questions in this discussion.
War On Terror is American term to define THEIR objective. How should Pakistanis have defined it?
Martyrdom of Pak army's jawans- What is the objective of their sacrifices?
The two factors are off course intertwined and it will be difficult to discuss one without the other.
1. WOT or DOT
Pakistanis should have never called it "War on terror". WOT was declared by Americans to send their troops to faraway lands. American troops are fighting to protect US interests. That's their main focus in WOT.
From Pakistan's perspective, it was never a WAR, it was rather a defense of our own lands, our own region against the Jihadi anarchists. It was always Defense of our Territories or DOT.
We must separate ourselves from Jihadi or American propaganda and try to see clearly what we have to do in this situation. So let's look at Jihadi objectives.
Osama used Jihad to free ARAB i.e. Saudi and Palestinian lands from "foreign occupation". Unfortunately he started this Jihad from Afghanistan. If Osama had balls, he would have setup his mission control in some stronger region and deployed his Jihadi troops where his prime objectives existed, namely in Saudi (presence of American troops), and in Palestine (presence of Israeli troops).
Basing his head quarters in Afghanistan was the most stupid thing to do. In Urdu we have an old proverb "Tutti ki aar main shikar". It means you try to hide behind a very flimsy, see-through piece of crap and fire bullets at a much stronger opponent. As soon as your opponent fires back, the tutti collapses leaving you in a defenseless position.
This is exactly what happened. When Americans came after Osama, his defense in the form of Mullah Omer' aka Tutti, capitulated in less than 3 days.
Afghanistan could never have defended Osama from the onslaught of Americans or any other power trying to go after him and his Jihadis.
Having explained the mistakes of Osama, let me change the focus to Pakistan now. Pakistanis miscalculated the American resolve in going after Osama. We were lulled into inaction by our socialist thinkers who heavily relied on myths and an outdated analysis of history.
Pakistani socialists looked at past performances of USA in places like Vietnam, and the more recent ones the way President Clinton's anemic reaction to the acts of Jihadi terrorism in Africa and Middle East.
Unfortunately Pakistani analysts forgot that US had already won Gulf War I, and rolled over Granada and Panama. Plus UK's faulkland wars had changed the dynamics. US and UK were no longer living in Vietnam era war policies.
Thus Americans were bound to come after Osama in Afghanistan sooner or later and we in Pakistan should have been ready to block off any spillover into FATA.
Unfortunately we didn't. We left our FATA region as distant land not to be cared for, not to be civilized and brought forward to 21st century.
We never established the writ of our government. Poorly trained Khasa dars, and FC men were no match for the battle hardened, and extremely motivated Jihadis.
Thus after the collapse of Taliban Tutti, when Jihadis poured over our border and occupied our areas, we took it lightly and never thought that a big war of Pakistan's survival is coming.
Not only did we ignored our area called FATA, we started bhand-bazi about sarcasm about WOT just to spite the Americans. Why do Americans care whether we joke about WOT or take it seriously. We should have been the one to name our war and for us it was not a WOT, but instead Defense of Territories (DOT) or defense of our border lands.
We should never call our war in FATA as WOT. It was always DOT and it will remain DOT until the last Jihadi is killed or captured.
2. Sacrifices of our jawans
Our jawans have given their ultimate so that we in Lahore, Karachi, Faisalabad, Multan, Islamabad, and Peshawar with some semblance of normalcy. Not great as US or UK life, but not terrible as Afghan life but somewhere in between.
Yes we lost close to 2000 of our precious young soldiers in the defense of our motherland. But we have also sent thousands of Jihadis to hell where hopefully they will reside forever.
We must learn from Somalia and Afghanistan. These budqismat countries didn't have brave jawans like ours, and look what has happened to them. One is under foreign occupation and the other is on the deathbed.
We are khush qismat that we have our soldiers defending us. Their martyrdom will never go in vain. As long we have our brave soldiers we will not turn into Islamic Emirates of Somaila and Afghanistan.
Sure we made mistakes in the beginning of our DOT. We sent in poorly trained Khasa daars and FC men resulting in their killing or capture. But now we have sent in tanks and gunships and soldiers who are properly equipped and trained.
We are already seeing the result. Thanks to the immense sacrifices of our army jawans, Jihadis are running in front of them like dogs with tails in their legs.
But we must not stop. Jihadi terror must be chased down to every cave and every hill of Bajore and Wazirastan. Yes we may lose some civilians, but we still have our country.
Ask Afghanis and Somalis if they could turn back time and stop the Jihadi menace when they could. It is too late for Somalis and Afghanis. But thanks to our soldiers, we will survive and win the DOT.
Good thread bro!
I would humbly add two important questions in this discussion.
War On Terror is American term to define THEIR objective. How should Pakistanis have defined it?
Martyrdom of Pak army's jawans- What is the objective of their sacrifices?
The two factors are off course intertwined and it will be difficult to discuss one without the other.
1. WOT or DOT
Pakistanis should have never called it "War on terror". WOT was declared by Americans to send their troops to faraway lands. American troops are fighting to protect US interests. That's their main focus in WOT.
From Pakistan's perspective, it was never a WAR, it was rather a defense of our own lands, our own region against the Jihadi anarchists. It was always Defense of our Territories or DOT.
We must separate ourselves from Jihadi or American propaganda and try to see clearly what we have to do in this situation. So let's look at Jihadi objectives.
Osama used Jihad to free ARAB i.e. Saudi and Palestinian lands from "foreign occupation". Unfortunately he started this Jihad from Afghanistan. If Osama had balls, he would have setup his mission control in some stronger region and deployed his Jihadi troops where his prime objectives existed, namely in Saudi (presence of American troops), and in Palestine (presence of Israeli troops).
Basing his head quarters in Afghanistan was the most stupid thing to do. In Urdu we have an old proverb "Tutti ki aar main shikar". It means you try to hide behind a very flimsy, see-through piece of crap and fire bullets at a much stronger opponent. As soon as your opponent fires back, the tutti collapses leaving you in a defenseless position.
This is exactly what happened. When Americans came after Osama, his defense in the form of Mullah Omer' aka Tutti, capitulated in less than 3 days.
Afghanistan could never have defended Osama from the onslaught of Americans or any other power trying to go after him and his Jihadis.
Having explained the mistakes of Osama, let me change the focus to Pakistan now. Pakistanis miscalculated the American resolve in going after Osama. We were lulled into inaction by our socialist thinkers who heavily relied on myths and an outdated analysis of history.
Pakistani socialists looked at past performances of USA in places like Vietnam, and the more recent ones the way President Clinton's anemic reaction to the acts of Jihadi terrorism in Africa and Middle East.
Unfortunately Pakistani analysts forgot that US had already won Gulf War I, and rolled over Granada and Panama. Plus UK's faulkland wars had changed the dynamics. US and UK were no longer living in Vietnam era war policies.
Thus Americans were bound to come after Osama in Afghanistan sooner or later and we in Pakistan should have been ready to block off any spillover into FATA.
Unfortunately we didn't. We left our FATA region as distant land not to be cared for, not to be civilized and brought forward to 21st century.
We never established the writ of our government. Poorly trained Khasa dars, and FC men were no match for the battle hardened, and extremely motivated Jihadis.
Thus after the collapse of Taliban Tutti, when Jihadis poured over our border and occupied our areas, we took it lightly and never thought that a big war of Pakistan's survival is coming.
Not only did we ignored our area called FATA, we started bhand-bazi about sarcasm about WOT just to spite the Americans. Why do Americans care whether we joke about WOT or take it seriously. We should have been the one to name our war and for us it was not a WOT, but instead Defense of Territories (DOT) or defense of our border lands.
We should never call our war in FATA as WOT. It was always DOT and it will remain DOT until the last Jihadi is killed or captured.
2. Sacrifices of our jawans Our jawans have given their ultimate so that we in Lahore, Karachi, Faisalabad, Multan, Islamabad, and Peshawar with some semblance of normalcy. Not great as US or UK life, but not terrible as Afghan life but somewhere in between.
Yes we lost close to 2000 of our precious young soldiers in the defense of our motherland. But we have also sent thousands of Jihadis to hell where hopefully they will reside forever.
We must learn from Somalia and Afghanistan. These budqismat countries didn't have brave jawans like ours, and look what has happened to them. One is under foreign occupation and the other is on the deathbed.
We are khush qismat that we have our soldiers defending us. Their martyrdom will never go in vain. As long we have our brave soldiers we will not turn into Islamic Emirates of Somaila and Afghanistan.
Sure we made mistakes in the beginning of our DOT. We sent in poorly trained Khasa daars and FC men resulting in their killing or capture. But now we have sent in tanks and gunships and soldiers who are properly equipped and trained.
We are already seeing the result. Thanks to the immense sacrifices of our army jawans, Jihadis are running in front of them like dogs with tails in their legs.
But we must not stop. Jihadi terror must be chased down to every cave and every hill of Bajore and Wazirastan. Yes we may lose some civilians, but we still have our country.
Ask Afghanis and Somalis if they could turn back time and stop the Jihadi menace when they could. It is too late for Somalis and Afghanis. But thanks to our soldiers, we will survive and win the DOT.
Your analysis is nothing but dazed resonance of same old rhetoric stuffed with a heavy bias of enlightened moderation. You don't seem to know much about so called "jihadis" their philosophy and its beginning.
Its neither "WOT" or "DOT", these people were never threat to the territorial integrity of Pakistan, it is a shameless and blind frenzy of violence on the part of both sides, however none of them is innocent. Finally, if equipment was enough to win a war like this US would have never needed us to begin with. This fire will burn our own home, guns are only fuel to it. calling so called "Gihadis" guilty of every thing is less than half a truth, refrain from it.
Re: Pak Army Casulties.
Establishing courts that make a mockery of Islam are by all means a threat to Pakistan and Islam as a whole. Burn the ****ers.
Establishing courts that make a mockery of Islam are by all means a threat to Pakistan and Islam as a whole. Burn the ****ers.
what about the courts that make mockery of the very soul of justice, is it any different than making mockery of Islam, without asking a substantiation to your claim.
If judicial system of Pakistan was providing justice to its inhabitants would there been any need to establish these independent shariah courts? half truth again, isn't it my friend?
Re: Pak Army Casulties.
According to Shariah it is illegal to establish courts without the approval of the government in power. Just like it is illegal to take up arms and kill other Muslims.
According to Shariah it is illegal to establish courts without the approval of the government in power. Just like it is illegal to take up arms and kill other Muslims.
Having power to establish system of quick justice and not doing that is as bad as not having authority and still exercising it, killing an innocent human being is as big a sin as killing a innocent Muslim, stress is on one being innocent rather than being Muslim, right my friend.
Re: Pak Army Casulties.
1300 sounds like a more accurate figure.
Re: Pak Army Casulties.
even if obl committed nine one one the resultant war against taliban by BOTH the west and pakistanis seems a grave injustice. to continue this war for nearly a decade is very sad. so much satanic desires and so few nomad pashtoons
obl committed nine one one ...
If OBL is responsible for the heinous crime, then he should be brought to full justice. See #3 below for details.
...war against taliban .. [is] a grave injustice. ...
bro! When in doubt always ask yourself a simple question. What will Mohammad pbuh (and Khulafa Rashideen rah) would do if there was a tribal uprising against the state.
There are few examples bro that you can ponder upon before declaring fatwas on this board.
Remember Mohammad pbuh (and Khulafa Rashideen) DID take the following actions against the trouble makers. I say trouble makers or anarchists but you may call them munafics, kafirs, Khawarij or whatever but the following steps are the same.
- Warn them of grave consequence if they don't quit spreading anarchy and terror
- Kick them out of their homes on permanent basis.
- If they still not obey, then kill all the fighting age men and take their women and children as slaves, wives etc. etc.
BTW #2 was not always practiced. Sometimes they went from #1 straight to #3.
Therefore you, Jihadis, and Talibans should feel very lucky that you live under governments who believe in "enlightened moderation". That's why you all can live, breed, and enjoy life while supporting or actually perpetrating anarchist and terrorist actions against us the innocent citizens.
Were you and other Jihadis in a different era, just read #3, then shiver with utmost fear and learn a lesson from Mohammad pbuh and Khulafa's actions, before it is too late.
...nomad pashtoons
nomad or not, if you pick up a gun against the state, you should be treated like Muslims treated the terrorists as per #3 above.
Re: Pak Army Casulties.
Ok ... can I please get a number? Is it 1,368 or 2,235? I want to put it outside my cube.
Re: Pak Army Casulties.
I wouldn't trust the numbers from the ISPR after their Kargil misadventure.
If OBL is responsible for the heinous crime, then he should be brought to full justice. See #3 below for details.
bro! When in doubt always ask yourself a simple question. What will Mohammad pbuh (and Khulafa Rashideen rah) would do if there was a tribal uprising against the state.
There are few examples bro that you can ponder upon before declaring fatwas on this board.
Remember Mohammad pbuh (and Khulafa Rashideen) DID take the following actions against the trouble makers. I say trouble makers or anarchists but you may call them munafics, kafirs, Khawarij or whatever but the following steps are the same.
- Warn them of grave consequence if they don't quit spreading anarchy and terror
- Kick them out of their homes on permanent basis.
- If they still not obey, then kill all the fighting age men and take their women and children as slaves, wives etc. etc.
BTW #2 was not always practiced. Sometimes they went from #1 straight to #3.
Therefore you, Jihadis, and Talibans should feel very lucky that you live under governments who believe in "enlightened moderation". That's why you all can live, breed, and enjoy life while supporting or actually perpetrating anarchist and terrorist actions against us the innocent citizens.
Were you and other Jihadis in a different era, just read #3, then shiver with utmost fear and learn a lesson from Mohammad pbuh and Khulafa's actions, before it is too late.
nomad or not, if you pick up a gun against the state, you should be treated like Muslims treated the terrorists as per #3 above.
.
There is absolutely no question about the integrity of the statement but wait you are trying to draw parallels between an assumption and gravely ill conceived reality. Let’s analyze what Prophet (PBUM) would have done if there was an “uprising” against the “state”, my friend you have to match at least three things here;
1) *Righteousness of your standpoint at par or even close to righteousness of Prophet’s stand point.
*
what if you are wrong all along and still want to ponder and come up with some messianic verdict, would it make you blessed in eyes of Prophet (PBUH), would your action carry any religious or moral worth, and would you be protecting an “Islamic state” or a monarchy or in our case continuation of a very despotic rule. Do you read Quran-e-Pak, do you understand what does “ UdKehloo FilSilMey Qafah” means ( Enter into Islam completely), or you believe in choices and choices that go inline with your bias?
2) *Uprising and against who; you have to go back in the history and try to find a little truth about it. *
Indeed, a state within a state is not acceptable, but waits again, let’s go back to your rationale of looking for examples in the life of Prophet or Khu;fa-e-Rashdeen or contemplating about a scenario that resembles to one with us. Am I wrong when I say that Hazrat-e-Umar (RTA) suspended the punishment for stealing when there was a drought like situation in the state, even when he had an example of Prophet saying “ I would not suspend the punishment, even if the girl was my own daughter”, what was Hazrat Umer’s rationale, to deal with the symptoms or deal with cause?
Don’t jump to the conclusions my friend, let’s browse through current times, let it work like an eye wash for many among us, Fitna is an existence of a state within a state or a very mutated point of view that threatens to undermine true spirit of our religion, right my friend. Can you draw parallels between conduct of MQM and Fitna, don’t they work like a state with in a state. How would you define and negotiate the killings of innocent civilians by their hands and especially on October 12, 2007 and do you remember what did the Holy man say at that time? Why do we discriminate among the terrorist, why do we cherry pick?
May be it is not Fitna or a terrorist that we are looking for , its only a soft target that we need, we pick among those who don’t have voice and their blood don’t leave a stain on our white drape of self pronounced righteousness, why young kids of LAL MASJID were not given a second chance while SURJEET SINGH had it, why Musharraf got indemnity for all that he did and Bhutto was hanged. With this kind of clean history do we still want to ponder what Prophet would do? Are you serious, we all stand guilty, if verdict comes from Quran and Sunnah, are you ready for that?
3) Ethics of the warfare.
When you are bringing forth examples of Prophet (PBUH) conduct towards Fitna, you should not shy away from under lining the rules and ethics of the warfare spelled out by the Prophet (PBUH), should I remind you about that? Tell me what kind of war is this where people reciting Quran-e-Pak are burned to ashes, what kind of war it is where you find one criminal among hundred corpses of innocent civilians? What kind of war is this where having beard is identification for an enemy combatant?
How many terrorist we had in year 1999, and how many so called terrorist we have now?, where did the war started, and where has this holy war reached. If violence against civilians could win wars like this, Israel would have been heaven on earth, and Kashmir would have been graveyard of the so called militants. If might was always right then RED BULL of Soviet Union would have not turned into pink monkey, and why on earth after 8 years of indiscriminate killings, US is going back on the negotiating table with Taliban?. Tell me why US strikes against one faction of Taliban that is allegedly busy fighting in Afghanistan and why turns its face away from other faction. Did you ever ponder who is supplying the so called terrorist with money and arms, no, why not?
If we think that we can crush this so called uprising and can still sustain our territorial integrity, we are living in a fool’s paradise and finally dealing with the symptoms can never solve a problem, we must identify the root cause and then deal with it.
Ok ... can I please get a number? Is it 1,368 or 2,235? I want to put it outside my cube.
If you really have to put it outside your cube then take an average.
Re: Pak Army Casulties.
looks like 1368 on 14th october as stated by dg isi gen pasha during in-camera session
excellent post @truth surfer
@antburqs- lol - soz didnt intentionally mean to leave you frothing at the mouth. your posts are beginning to look sinister, very sinister
Ok ... can I please get a number? Is it 1,368 or 2,235? I want to put it outside my cube.
2,235 is more close to the reality.
However I do not understand your quest to put these numbers outside your cube. Is your cube in the USA (or a Western country) or in Pakistan? If you are in Pakistan it may be OK.
If on the other hand if you work in the USA and put Pakistani soldiers death numbers, it means nothing to the Americans.
In fact it may be counter productive. It simply shows that as Pakistanis we are so incompetent against criminals on OUR soil. That we are losing thousands of our soldiers on OUR land.
If we have terrorists and thugs in our country and we lose our law enforcement officers to bring peace for us, then it is a pride and honor for us and not Americans.
However if Pakistanis and American soldiers were fighting under unified command, you could tell the Americans about your share of sacrifices. But that's not the case.
.
----- Let’s analyze what Prophet (PBUM) would have done if there was an “uprising” against the “state”, ......
1) *Righteousness of your standpoint at par or even close to righteousness of Prophet’s stand point. * ....... ....
Bro TS you should be honest and change your name to Terror_ seeker or better yet terror_ sympathizer. It is the very hypocrisy among Jihadis that have gotten them into deep $hit.
Your righteousness argument falls flat on its face. As you can easily turn every government after Mohammad pbuh time to be UN-righteous.
It will serve you better and your future generations to learn a lesson and quit supporting anarchy in Pakistan or whatever county you live in. Haven't you learned from 7/7 bombers or the dotors who burned themselves on Glasgow airport?
Have you?
As I said earlier, you should be glad that these are the times of "enlightened moderation". Otherwise you would have gotten the true Islamic treatment by now.
Islamic history is filled with the term "Maale Ghaneemat". Do you know what Ghaneemat means? it means goats and women. Yes the war booty in times of Mohammad pbuh and Khulafah Rashideen rah consisted of women, slaves and the goats looted from the tribes who stood up against the state.
Now don't go off in your merry way and try to find your little istrahs so you can avoid Islamic style punishment while continuing to support terror against Pakistan.
What a sad story, what a waste of education.
if you think you can stifle debate by calling people terrorists and sympathisers - your wrong.
it is our right as pakistanis (by origin, expats or otherwise) to decide for ourselves without fear or favour the right path on every political and military policy
'posh burqa kiss' your a complete disgrace to this board and to humanity. ciao