Pak-Afghan Border Line (merged)

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

From what I understand it is yet to be decided where Pakistan’s territory starts and where Afghan territory ends, so how can one say they made incursions, while the other deny it .. as they both are speaking on the basis of a border that doesn’t exist?!

Karzai warns Pakistan From BBC

Afghan President Hamid Karzai has warned Pakistan over apparent comments made by its President, General Pervez Musharraf about his leadership.
The Afghan foreign ministry says Mr Musharraf had questioned Mr Karzai’s influence across the country.

Over the past week Afghan and Pakistani troops have been exchanging small arms fire across their shared border.

On Monday, a 100 people took part in a demonstration in Kabul, in protest against reported Pakistani military incursions into Afghan territory.

Mr Karzai said he wanted to speak to Mr Musharraf about his alleged comments.

“Mr Musharraf has made some comments regarding Afghanistan which have become a matter of sadness and regret for me,” the Reuters news agency quoted him as saying.

During a recent trip to Europe, Mr Musharraf allegedly spoke of a power vacuum in Afghanistan and said the government did not represent all ethnic groups, the Afghan foreign ministry said.

“Afghanistan does not interfere in anyone’s affairs and neither does it want others’ interference in its affairs,” Mr Karzai said.

In a related development, protestors marched through the centre of Kabul shouting slogans against the Mr Musharraf.

Afghan concern

Over the weekend, Mr Karzai sent a team of high-ranking government officials to the border to investigate whether the alleged incursions took place.

The president ordered the investigation after tribal elders from the province of Nangahar told him they were concerned that Pakistani forces operating on the border were also carrying out military operations inside Afghan territory.

Pakistani troops were sent to the area last month to try to stop suspected Taleban and al-Qaeda fugitives from carrying out cross-border attacks on Afghanistan.

Pakistan denies that its troops have entered Afghan territory.

The long porous border between the two countries cuts across mountainous territory and is very poorly marked.

2

This issue has been done... The Durund Line stands... Karzai can rant whatever he wants, but he can do nothing about it...

Gone are the days where they could launch those pakhtunistan movements through radio Kabul and promote provincial disharmony in Pakistan.

3

ahmedjee, this has nothing to do with the durand line… All the Afghans are complaining about is the incursions into their (the one that Pakistani declared is theirs) territory by the Pakistani forces…

Protesters in the Afghan capital Kabul have broken into the Pakistani embassy.
The attack came as more than 1,000 people took to the streets for a second day in protest against alleged Pakistani incursions into Afghanistan.

Over the past week Afghan and Pakistani troops have been exchanging small arms fire across their shared border.

On Monday, Afghan President Hamid Karzai warned Pakistan against interfering in his country’s affairs.

The attack on the Pakistani mission in Kabul took place when some of the protesters broke away from the main rally and forced their way inside the embassy premises.

Reports say they smashed some windows before being evicted from the embassy, which is close to the presidential palace.

Nobody was hurt.

Protest

Government officials joined the main protest rally which took place in the city centre.

“This is a demonstration against Pakistan’s military operations in Afghan territory in the provinces of Nangarhar and Kunar that have taken place in the past few days,” the governor of the central bank, Anwar Ul-haq Ahady, said.

“We want good relations with Pakistan but we will not tolerate anybody’s interference,” he said.

Over the weekend, Mr Karzai sent a team of high-ranking government officials to the border after tribal elders told him they were concerned that Pakistani forces were carrying out military operations inside Afghan territory.

Last month the Pakistan army deployed troops in a border area which traditionally has not been administered by the central government.

The operation was part of attempts to try to stop suspected Taleban and al-Qaeda fugitives from carrying out cross-border attacks on Afghanistan.

Pakistan denies that its troops have entered Afghan territory.

The long porous border between the two countries cuts across mountainous territory and is very poorly marked.

Warning

On Monday, President Karzai said he would seek an explanation from Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf for allegedly questioning the effectiveness of his government.

During a recent trip to Europe, General Musharraf allegedly spoke of a power vacuum in Afghanistan and said the government did not represent all ethnic groups, the Afghan foreign ministry said.

“Afghanistan does not interfere in anyone’s affairs and neither does it want others’ interference in its affairs,” Mr Karzai said.

4

Pakistan’s Kabul embassy attacked

Pakistan has closed its embassy in Afghanistan after protesters in the capital Kabul broke into it.
Pakistan’s ambassador described the attack as a “big setback” and said the mission would not be opened until Kabul apologised and compensated Islamabad.

The attack came as more than 1,000 people took to the streets for a second day in protest against alleged Pakistani incursions into Afghanistan.

Over the past week Afghan and Pakistani troops have been exchanging small arms fire across their shared border.

On Monday, Afghan President Hamid Karzai warned Pakistan against interfering in his country’s affairs…

thats we gonna get in reward from afghanis after supporting them for decades! what a shame

5

Karzai can't even control the warlords in his own country, and he is making threats agains Pakistan. Moron.

Let Afghanistan get back to its old ways and screw itself. It does not deserve a hand of friendship. How many countries have taken in over 6 million refugees and still be treated like ****. Pakistan should wash its hands with the idiotic leaders of Afghanistan.

6

Pakistani embassy attacked

Is there much enmity between the two countries? Just curious.

Pakistan’s Kabul embassy attacked

The protests began on Monday
Pakistan has closed its embassy in Afghanistan after protesters in the capital, Kabul, broke into it.
Pakistan’s ambassador described the attack as a “big setback” and said the mission would not be opened until Kabul apologised and compensated Islamabad.

The attack came as more than 1,000 people took to the streets for a second day in protest against alleged Pakistani incursions into Afghanistan.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai phoned his Pakistani counterpart, General Pervez Musharraf, to apologise for the incident.

President Karzai said those who carried out the attack were the enemies of peace and stability in Afghanistan.

The BBC’s Zaffar Abbas in Islamabad says it is not clear if Pakistan will re-open its embassy following Mr Karzai’s phone call.

Over the past week, Afghan and Pakistani troops have been exchanging small arms fire across their shared border.

On Monday, Mr Karzai warned Pakistan against interfering in his country’s affairs.

Equipment smashed

Tuesday’s attack on the Pakistani mission took place when some of the protesters broke away from the main rally and forced their way inside the embassy premises.

Where was the Afghan government? Where were the security forces?

Rustam Shah Mohmand
Pakistan Ambassador

The BBC’s Jannat Jalil at the scene says many of the embassy’s windows have been smashed, rooms have been ransacked and computer equipment destroyed.

There are no reports of casualties.

The Pakistani ambassador, Rustam Shah Mohmand, told journalists that he held the Afghanistan responsible for the attack.

“Where was the Afghan Government? Where were the security forces?” Mr Mohmand said in a press conference held at the damaged mission.

He said recent statements made by senior Afghan officials, including Mr Karzai, accusing Pakistan of interfering in Afghanistan’s internal affairs, have created the environment for this attack to happen.

Interference ‘not tolerated’

Government officials joined the main protest rally which took place in the city centre.

“This is a demonstration against Pakistan’s military operations in Afghan territory in the provinces of Nangarhar and Kunar that have taken place in the past few days,” the governor of the central bank, Anwar Ul-haq Ahady, said.

“We want good relations with Pakistan but we will not tolerate anybody’s interference,” he said.

Over the weekend, Mr Karzai sent a team of high-ranking government officials to the border after tribal elders told him they were concerned that Pakistani forces were carrying out military operations inside Afghan territory.

Last month, the Pakistan army deployed troops in a border area which traditionally has not been administered by the central government.

The operation was part of attempts to try to stop suspected Taleban and al-Qaeda fugitives from carrying out cross-border attacks on Afghanistan.

Pakistan denies that its troops have entered Afghan territory.

The long porous border between the two countries cuts across mountainous territory and is very poorly marked.

Warning

On Monday, President Karzai said he would seek an explanation from President Musharraf for allegedly questioning the effectiveness of his government.

During a recent trip to Europe, General Musharraf allegedly spoke of a power vacuum in Afghanistan and said the government did not represent all ethnic groups, the Afghan foreign ministry said.

“Afghanistan does not interfere in anyone’s affairs and neither does it want others’ interference in its affairs,” Mr Karzai said.

7

From what I have heard the demo was fairly small, barely a couple of hundred people and from the pictures I have seen the crowd consisted mostly of Northern Alliance people (who are very anti Pakistan).

Also Karzai called Musharraf and apologised for the incident

8

With the increasing Indian influence in Afghanistan, this was supposed to be the outcome-God knows how many more such ordeals lie ahead.

9

Pakistan 'to reopen embassy soon

Pakistan’s foreign minister says the country’s embassy in Kabul, which was ransacked by an Afghan mob on Tuesday, should reopen soon.
Khurshid Mahmood Kasuri told the BBC the mission would reopen when its computers had been repaired.

Mr Kasuri also said a telephone call between Afghan President Hamid Karzai and Pakistan counterpart Pervez Musharraf had cleared up all misunderstandings between the countries.

The attack occurred during a protest against alleged Pakistani incursions into Afghanistan.

Mr Karzai apologised to Islamabad for the attack after Pakistan lodged a formal complaint.

On Wednesday, Afghans trying to obtain visas and passports were being turned away from the closed mission by dozens of police.

‘Out of context’

Mr Kasuri vowed that Pakistani embassy officials “would stay in the country”.

“We’ve been assured that all necessary steps will be taken to ensure their security. I’ve spoken to the acting foreign minister in Kabul; he’s apologised and said these [attackers] were people who didn’t wish to see an improvement in Pakistan-Afghan relations,” Mr Kasuri said.
Afghan hostility towards Pakistan had mounted over the weekend after General Musharraf allegedly spoke of a power vacuum in Afghanistan and apparently claimed the government did not represent all ethnic groups.

Afghan officials also accused Pakistan of sending troops into Afghan territory during operations on the border - a charge rejected by Pakistan.

Mr Kasuri said General Musharraf’s comments had been taken out of context.

“In their telephone conversation, [General Musharraf] cleared all misunderstandings. He said [to Mr Karzai], ‘I’ll send you the text of my speech; I said nothing like this.’”

Mr Kasuri said reports that Pakistani forces had occupied an Afghan border post were “baseless”.

“Our troops are on our side. On their side are personnel from both the Afghan and American forces.”

In their telephone call, Mr Karzai told General Musharraf that those responsible for the attack were enemies of peace and promised to pay compensation for the damage.

At a news conference on Tuesday, he said: “I strongly, strongly, strongly condemn this action. Those who committed this act are not the enemies of Pakistan. They are the enemies of Afghanistan, peace in Afghanistan.”

10

Our Friends, the Afghanis

Looks like the ugly Afghan monster rears its head once again. Our Embassy was ransacked by Afghans. This is completely unacceptable, as even the Indians have provided security for the Pakistan high commission in New Delhi. Lets call a spade a spade, these Afghans are nothing but anti-Pakistani irritants on our western border, and we should deal with with them appropriately.

KHARzai the puppet could do nothing more than sit there and mouth off words of apology, while the real damage has been done. Atleast with the Taliban we weren’t dealing with namak haramis. We should kick out every non-Pakhtun Afghani from Pakistan and cut off all aid going to non-Pakhtun areas. They want to play with fire, lets make sure theyre the ones getting burned.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/09/international/asia/09AFGH.html
Hundreds of Afghans Attack Pakistan Embassy in Kabul
By DAVID ROHDE

KABUL, Afghanistan, July 8 — Hundreds of Afghans ransacked Pakistan’s embassy in Kabul this morning, shattering windows, breaking down doors and setting the Pakistani flag on fire.

No one was injured in the rampage, but Pakistani officials bitterly accused the Afghan government of being unable to police its own capital, demanded compensation and said the embassy would remain closed until further notice.

“Where was the Afghan government?” Rustam Shah Mohmand, Pakistan’s ambassador to Kabul, asked as he stood among shattered windows and overturned tables.

The tension between the countries stems from allegations that Pakistan is allowing Taliban fighters to use its territory to carry out attacks on American and Afghan forces in southeastern Afghanistan. There have also been reports of skirmishes between Afghan and Pakistani forces along the countries’ lawless and disputed border.

Pakistani officials say they have posted 70,000 troops along the border to stop the incursions, the first time the army has entered the tribal areas. They say that they have arrested 500 suspected members of Al Qaeda and the Taliban, but that it is impossible to seal the mountainous border.

The embassy attack came a day after the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, criticized comments made by President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan, who said that Mr. Karzai’s government has little control of the country outside Kabul.

The assault began when 500 protesters chanting “death to Pakistan” descended on the Pakistani Embassy. Afghan officials were aware of the protest, a Western diplomat said, but apparently assigned no extra policemen. The crowd quickly overwhelmed the 10 to 15 officers present. As hundreds of looters swarmed the compound, a dozen Pakistanis cowered in the basement. The ambassador was not there.

At the heart of the dispute are two divergent views of the situation in Afghanistan. Officials in Kabul say Afghan and American forces are making steady progress in countering a low-level insurgency in southeastern Afghanistan. But officials in Islamabad say lawlessness is spreading, ethnic Pashtuns resent the American presence and support for the Taliban’s strict law-and-order governance is growing.

In a news conference this afternoon, Mr. Karzai apologized for the attack and condemned those who carried it out. He promised to call General Musharraf and apologize and to pay Pakistan compensation.

“Those who did this action today are not enemies of Pakistan,” he said. “They are, in fact, enemies of Afghanistan.”

The dispute began last week when General Musharraf said in Germany that a far larger international force was needed in Afghanistan, where warlords, not Mr. Karzai’s government, controlled most of the country.

The Western diplomat said today that Mr. Karzai was “very incensed” by General Musharraf’s comments.

Mr. Mohmand, the Pakistani ambassador, said General Musharraf was simply trying to help Afghanistan. Some Western diplomats pointed out that news reports routinely described Mr. Karzai as largely powerless outside Kabul.

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Like I said earlier, throw out the Afghan refugees out of Pakistan (and more specifically out of my beloved Islamabad). That should send a message to the Afghan government.

I hope this time our impotent General saab can actually muster some sort of a decent response.

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RF: Salams (PM'ed you btw!), the crowd was quite small and was definitely non Pukhtoon if you look at the picture. While the border needs to be sorted out, these kinds of attacks show the Northern Alliance definitely wants to settle scores.

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Re: Our Friends, the Afghanis

**

At the risk of having my Inbox filled with hate-spewing comments, um :flower1: Isn’t there an underlying reason, perhaps, for all this tension ? I.e., the NY Times article states that “…Pakistan is allowing Taliban fighters to use its territory to carry out attacks on American and Afghan forces in southeastern Afghanistan”. How would we feel if it was the other way around and Afghanistan was being accused of allowing military incursions into Pakistan’s territory? Whether or not these allegations (against Pakistan) are accurate, i am NOT certain - but the allegations themselves should be addressed because i think that’s the main cause for this conflict.

If we place ourselves in the Afghan peoples’ shoes, we would react in approximately the same manner IMHO.

Let the hate-filled comments now arrive :clown: :smiley:

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Re: Our Friends, the Afghanis

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
We should kick out every non-Pakhtun Afghani from Pakistan
[/QUOTE]

Collective punishment is a grave human rights violation. For Pakistan to expel every non-Pakhtun Afghan within Pakistan would be just as despicable as if Israel were to expel all arabs from its borders following attacks against occupation forces.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
RF: Salams (PM'ed you btw!), the crowd was quite small and was definitely non Pukhtoon if you look at the picture. While the border needs to be sorted out, these kinds of attacks show the Northern Alliance definitely wants to settle scores.
[/QUOTE]

Wa'Salaams Zakk!

Thanks for the PM, found the info very interesting (maybe I'll open up a thread over in culture).

No doubt it was the NA attempting to settle scores. Their hatred for Pakistan and Pashtuns is unstoppable! And believe me, I am fine with that, as long as we dont let those dirty watan faroosh idiots are never in, near, or trading with us. Where were the so-called "Afghanis" during the Soviet invasion? Either cooperating with the commies or running with their tails between legs. How come the Lions of Qandahar, Jalalabad died while fighting the Russians? While Massood survived?

Afghan=Pakhtun NOT Tajik, Uzbek etc. We as Pakistanis will NEVER apologize for supporting Pakhtun interests in Afghanistan. I cannot await the day that this NA dominated gopvernment is vaporized and the Pakhtuns (the true and sole representatives of Afghanistan) are in power again. Sure the Durand line is an issue we need to address. Bro, I fully support your proposals of creating a soft border, even giving dual citizenship to Pakhtuns on both sides BUT the NA and their supporters should never be accorded this privilage.

Call Taliban what you like but atleast they were on the right path.

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Re: Re: Our Friends, the Afghanis

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *

Collective punishment is a grave human rights violation. For Pakistan to expel every non-Pakhtun Afghan within Pakistan would be just as despicable as if Israel were to expel all arabs from its borders following attacks against occupation forces.
[/QUOTE]

Maddi, while I speak in realpolitick terms you are dtill an idealist :) I don't fault you for your words but I ask you to look at the level of subversion these so called Afghanis are causing.

I do not hate people. My wife is Pakhtun from Pakistan and so are a lot of my best friends from both sides of the Durand. I am taking the liberty of saying that with my extensive experience with Pakhtuns, I have found them to mukhlis and up front. While the dari speakers have the level of hatred for Pakistan that cannot be matched by the Indians...but for what? For letting them enter Pakistan, settle there or find ways of going abroad? For helping them with food and basic necessities?

The Pakhtuns of Afghanistan have as much of a right on NWFP as we do. So when they entered Pekhawer or Orakzai agency they were going to their home in some respects. They share bloodlines with our Pakistani Pashtuns, but what do we share with dirty India supporting Uzbeks and Tajiks?? Last time I checked Pakistan was for Pakistanis and all those Muslims who are with us in our ideology.

Maybe Pakistanis need to go and speak to dariwan face to face to get an idea of what I am talking about. Never will we be cowed by illegitimate rulers of Afghanistan.

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Re: Re: Our Friends, the Afghanis

Nadia no hatred :slight_smile:

I do not believe that attacking our foriegn service workers, rampaging through our embassy and torching our flag is justified for those issues that you have raised, do you? Even India has never allowed such an event to happen.

I’ll take it out of the spin zone, yes Pakistan has allowed the Talibs to attack from FATA. If you visit the tribal agencies you will find that the support for Taliban is still high, and why shouldn’t it be? Just because the US stepped in to eradicate them doesn’t mean that Afghanis and Pakistani Pakhtuns do not support them. If you read my earlier response to Zakk, in proposing a soft border between Pakhtunkhwa and Afghanistan, things cut both ways…meaning that the Pakistan Pakhtun areas have as much rights to support/house Talibs as the refugees had the right to escape from USSR’s attack on Afghanistan.

You cannot have it both ways: Forcefully arguing to alloow refugees to enter while preventing Pakistani Pakhtuns from going back into Afgfhanistan. If it sounds like an unconditional support for Pakhtun interests than so be it. For me, the Pashtuns of Afghanistan became our responsibility, the day we accepted Sarhad as a province of Pakistan, we will never turn our backs on them!

18

Some positive news

Karzai apologises to Musharraf
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_9-7-2003_pg1_2
ISLAMABAD: Afghan President Hamid Karzai on Tuesday apologized to President Pervez Musharraf for an attack on Pakistan’s embassy in Kabul by an armed mob. In a 20-minute telephone conversation with Mr Musharraf, Mr Karzai said the attackers were not Afghan citizens. “They were hooligans. They were not friends of Pakistan or Afghanistan. We have arrested some people and we are pursuing others to punish them,” the Afghan president said. “I have never given any statement against you or Pakistan,” the Afghan president told Mr Musharraf. “I was misquoted,” he said. He said the Afghans and Pakistanis were like brothers. “We appreciate the role played by Pakistan in the fight against Al Qaeda and reconstruction of Afghanistan. I assure that no such incident will take place in future.”The Afghan president assured President Musharraf that his government would provide full protection and security to the Pakistan embassy staff in Kabul and other diplomatic staff in its consulates in other cities as well. They also discussed the situation on the Pak-Afghan border where Pakistani troops were fired upon. The Afghan president said he would personally look into the matter so that it is not repeated. —

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Nadia, this time there is no reason to blame Pakistan... What they did to our embassy was unacceptable, and for your information, the Government joined and totally supported this digusting act.

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Nadia, first the Afghans were alleging that Pakistan is allowing the taleban to regroup and attack Afghanistan through the tribal areas. When Pakistan finally sent its forces into the tribal areas to ensure that the incursions are checked, they have started blaming Pakistan for invading their territory. The Afghans will never be thankful...