Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

[psyah]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

@expatobserver

I think post-operative pain after a deviated septum operation is prolly more painful than child-birth. I had this op twice and it was five days of somebody banging a hammer on my head with every breath. So we men know the pain too. My wife for some reason does not agree.

Peace bro

Is it 'THE' pain we know or merely 'A' pain we know?

[Mirch]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

@USResident

Could you please quote references because I have not recently studied the latest ijtihad on milk suckling between spouses. My information could be outdated though I would like to see the reasoning or evidence given for this new ijtihad.

The hadith about an adult man being suckled by an adult woman is controversial and infact stirred some controversy a while ago when some scholar from Egypt used it to legitimize some issue related to women in the workplace with na-mahram males. However if you have read that hadith it is not graphic in narrative to assume their was physical contact between the two rather the assumption should be on the side of dignity that the milk was brought to the man (whose name I think was Saleem) and he drank it and not physical milk suckling occured.

Here is the ruling from Muta of Imam Malik on suckling of milk by adults :

http://www.isna.net/library/hadith/malik/030_mmt.html

*Book 30, Number 30.2.13: *
Yahya related to me from Malik that Abdullah ibn Dinar said, "A man came to Abdullah ibn Umar when I waswith him at the place where judgments were given and asked him about the suckling of an older person. Abdullah ibn Umar replied, ‘A man came to Umar ibn al-Khattab and said, ‘I have a slave-girl and I used to have intercourse with her. My wife went to her and suckled her. When I went to the girl, my wife told me to watch out, because she had suckled her!’ Umar told him to beat his wife and to go to his slave-girl because kinship by suckling was only by the suckling of the young.’ "
*Book 30, Number 30.2.14: *
Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said that a man said to Abu Musa al-Ashari, “I drank some milk from my wife’s breasts and it went into my stomach.” Abu Musa said, “I can only but think that she is haram for you.” Abdullah ibn Masud said, “Look at what opinion you are giving the man.” Abu Musa said, “Then what do you say?” Abdullah ibn Masud said, “There is only kinship by suckling in the first two years.”
Abu Musa said, “Do not ask me about anything while this learned man is among you.”

[Mirch]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

@USResident

The thing is can the surrogate mother relinquish her claim to motherhood without ever re-visiting it. Another question would be legally who would awarded the status of mother for the child. For the biological mother this could be also deemed as adoption. The answer lies in determining whether in Islam the real mother is the one who carries the child in the womb or the one whose eggs give birth to the child. I think unless there is a concensus on this question, the gestational surrogacy issue should not be taken further. Who in your opinion should be the status of the real mother of the child. From the Quran I consider the birth related to the sperm and eggs not the womb/uterus (it is said many places in the Quran that Allah SWT created us from a despised drop of semen or Nutfah). Uterus is the environment which develops the child IMO.

Suckling makes the women mother of infant and the children become surrogate brothers and sisters. The rulings are very clear about this. This is the only kind of surrogacy Islam talks about and tells us that the claim to the child still belongs to biological mother not the surrogate mother. So we can take our cue from this ruling about the gestational surrogacy. If we keep this kind of surrogacy out of picture in that case we can use science to establish the claim on the baby by biological mother . Science says that genetic makeup of the baby comes from biological mother and father not from the gestational surrogate mother. Islam determines the parenthood from the DNA and genetics. Why I say that ? Because the logic behind 'iddat' is to establish the parenthood of a baby in case a women became pregnant before talaq or death of her husband. What is the point here the point here is that Islam knew about genetics 1400 years ago and this is a way to establish the genetic makeup of a newly conceived baby before divorce or death of a husband. There were no DNA test in those days but Islam was cognizant of DNA.

[USResident]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

@Mirch

Here is the ruling from Muta of Imam Malik on suckling of milk by adults :

http://www.isna.net/library/hadith/malik/030_mmt.html

*Book 30, Number 30.2.13: *Yahya related to me from Malik that Abdullah ibn Dinar said, "A man came to Abdullah ibn Umar when I waswith him at the place where judgments were given and asked him about the suckling of an older person. Abdullah ibn Umar replied, ‘A man came to Umar ibn al-Khattab and said, ‘I have a slave-girl and I used to have intercourse with her. My wife went to her and suckled her. When I went to the girl, my wife told me to watch out, because she had suckled her!’ Umar told him to beat his wife and to go to his slave-girl because kinship by suckling was only by the suckling of the young.’ "

*Book 30, Number 30.2.14: *Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said that a man said to Abu Musa al-Ashari, “I drank some milk from my wife’s breasts and it went into my stomach.” Abu Musa said, “I can only but think that she is haram for you.” Abdullah ibn Masud said, “Look at what opinion you are giving the man.” Abu Musa said, “Then what do you say?” Abdullah ibn Masud said, “There is only kinship by suckling in the first two years.”

Abu Musa said, “Do not ask me about anything while this learned man is among you.”

:salam:

Br. Mirch I was a bit rusty and went back to check more ahadith in Bukhari and Malik about this. I concede this point, you are right, the two year weaning period is only where the relationship of mahram can be created not adulthood. JAK.

[Mirch]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

@USResident

Br. Mirch I was a bit rusty and went back to check more ahadith in Bukhari and Malik about this. I concede this point, you are right, the two year weaning period is only where the relationship of mahram can be created not adulthood. JAK.

JAK , We are all students and are trying to do the right thing. May Allah accept our efforts and forgive our mistakes. Ameen.

[USResident]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

@Mirch

Suckling makes the women mother of infant and the children become surrogate brothers and sisters. The rulings are very clear about this. This is the only kind of surrogacy Islam talks about and tells us that the claim to the child still belongs to biological mother not the surrogate mother.

When you say surrogate siblings I would tend to call it half-siblings. Surrogacy means to substitute something that already exists. The surrogate siblings you mention IMO are not replacing our existing biological siblings but adding on to them.

Here is a hadith from Bukhari/Muslim:

Ibn ‘Abbaas reported that the Prophet SAW (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “What is forbidden by radaa’ (suckling or breastfeeding) is the same as what is forbidden by nasab (lineage).” (Agreed upon; al-Bukhaari, Muslim, 1444).

There is no idea of surrogacy here but rather a classification of relationships based on mahram and non-mahram.

@Mirch

So we can take our cue from this ruling about the gestational surrogacy. If we keep this kind of surrogacy out of picture in that case we can use science to establish the claim on the baby by biological mother . Science says that genetic makeup of the baby comes from biological mother and father not from the gestational surrogate mother. Islam determines the parenthood from the DNA and genetics. Why I say that ? Because the logic behind 'iddat' is to establish the parenthood of a baby in case a women became pregnant before talaq or death of her husband. What is the point here the point here is that Islam knew about genetics 1400 years ago and this is a way to establish the genetic makeup of a newly conceived baby before divorce or death of a husband. There were no DNA test in those days but Islam was cognizant of DNA.

I think we might be on the same page but stumbling on the terminology being used. When we say surrogate mother, it does not mean we are surrogating the mother but rather we are surrogating the reproductive environment needed for baring a child.

The iddat period is 4 months plus. Whereas pregnancy is established after the first period or some time after it (meaning a month or two). Do you think this would actually imply that the genetic makeup of the child can be altered during the first trimester by the introduction of sperm from a different man and hence the iddat period being longer than just to know pregnancy. If that be the case then can the surrogate mothers spouse cause change in the genetics of the baby she is carrying? I am not clear in gestational surrogacy on how far beyond in terms of pregnancy is the embryo transferred to the surrogate mothers uterus. Has the embryo passed the period similar to that of iddat in Islam so as to make sure it cannot be affected by the spouse of the surrogate mother.

[Captain1]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

@hareem01

Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

Surrogate motherhood is often euphemistically referred to as “hiring a womb.” The procedure involves using the service of another woman to serve as a carrier for the fertilized ovum of a couple. The woman makes herself available to inject the fertilized ovum into her own womb and then carries the child to its full term on behalf of the other couple. It is often done in lieu of a specified remuneration or free of charge. People resort to this procedure either because a married woman who desires to have a child has problems in carrying her child to its full term or because of her desire to simply forgo the “trouble” of conception and labor.

According to the rules of Shari`ah, surrogate motherhood as described above is not allowed, since it involves introducing the sperm of a male into the uterus of a woman to whom he is not married and, thus, it clearly falls under the specific category of transgressing the bounds of Allah as stated in the Qur’an: Those who guard their private parts except from their spouses… (Al-Mu’minun: 5). “Whosoever goes beyond that are indeed transgressors” (Al-Mu’minun 23: 7).

Red+Bolded part 2nd para is not right. As indicated in Red+Bolded part of 1st para, it is the "fertilized ovum" that is being placed in the uterus of the 'unmarried' woman and not just sperm, so the sperm is not a "free-lance" anymore hence the verse is not applicable IMO.

[Mirch]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

@USResident

I think we might be on the same page but stumbling on the terminology being used. When we say surrogate mother, it does not mean we are surrogating the mother but rather we are surrogating the reproductive environment needed for baring a child.

The iddat period is 4 months plus. Whereas pregnancy is established after the first period or some time after it (meaning a month or two). Do you think this would actually imply that the genetic makeup of the child can be altered during the first trimester by the introduction of sperm from a different man and hence the iddat period being longer than just to know pregnancy. If that be the case then can the surrogate mothers spouse cause change in the genetics of the baby she is carrying? I am not clear in gestational surrogacy on how far beyond in terms of pregnancy is the embryo transferred to the surrogate mothers uterus. Has the embryo passed the period similar to that of iddat in Islam so as to make sure it cannot be affected by the spouse of the surrogate mother.

The whole idea behind raza'at is to provide a healthy nurturing home to a baby who might not otherwise have/get it for one reason or the other.
In case of gestational surrogacy we are providing a healthy nurturing womb for a baby which starts in a test tube but will die if a healthy and nurturing womb is not available to this baby. Once the egg of a mother has been fertilized using the sperm of the papa then nothing else is needed for this baby from the surrogate mother or father as for establishing the genetic makeup of the baby. The genetic makeup of the baby has been established already. This baby now needs a warm womb and nutrients from this womb to grow. So the mechanics are different but the concept is same as raza'at . These nutrients from the surrogate mother do not alter the genetics of this baby. Once the surrogate mother has been impregnated with this embryo the conjugal relationship of this surrogate couple will not alter this embryo in any way.

[Mirch]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

@USResident

I think we might be on the same page but stumbling on the terminology being used. When we say surrogate mother, it does not mean we are surrogating the mother but rather we are surrogating the reproductive environment needed for baring a child.

The iddat period is 4 months plus. Whereas pregnancy is established after the first period or some time after it (meaning a month or two). Do you think this would actually imply that the genetic makeup of the child can be altered during the first trimester by the introduction of sperm from a different man and hence the iddat period being longer than just to know pregnancy. If that be the case then can the surrogate mothers spouse cause change in the genetics of the baby she is carrying? I am not clear in gestational surrogacy on how far beyond in terms of pregnancy is the embryo transferred to the surrogate mothers uterus. Has the embryo passed the period similar to that of iddat in Islam so as to make sure it cannot be affected by the spouse of the surrogate mother.

The whole idea behind raza'at is to provide a healthy nurturing home to a baby who might not otherwise have/get it for one reason or the other.
In case of gestational surrogacy we are providing a healthy nurturing womb for a baby which starts in a test tube but will die if a healthy and nurturing womb is not available to this baby. Once the egg of a mother has been fertilized using the sperm of the papa then nothing else is needed for this baby from the surrogate mother or father as for establishing the genetic makeup of the baby. The genetic makeup of the baby has been established already. This baby now needs a warm womb and nutrients from this womb to grow. So the mechanics are different but the concept is same as raza'at . These nutrients from the surrogate mother do not alter the genetics of this baby. Once the surrogate mother has been impregnated with this embryo the conjugal relationship of this surrogate couple will not alter this embryo in any way.

[hareem01]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

I think only a wife(mankuha) can carry a child(of her husband) in her womb as Qur'an refers to only** your wives as your tilths**. Does this make any sense?

[Mirch]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

I think only a wife(mankuha) can carry a child(of her husband) in her womb as Qur'an refers to only** your wives as your tilths**. Does this make any sense?

Sorry for being blunt . Yes it does not make any sense. That refers to conjugal relationship how can you apply it to gestational surrogacy ? The surrogate mother is not having any conjugal relationship with the biological father and vice versa.
Does it make sense ?

[USResident]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

The whole idea behind raza'at is to provide a healthy nurturing home to a baby who might not otherwise have/get it for one reason or the other. In case of gestational surrogacy we are providing a healthy nurturing womb for a baby which starts in a test tube but will die if a healthy and nurturing womb is not available to this baby. Once the egg of a mother has been fertilized using the sperm of the papa then nothing else is needed for this baby from the surrogate mother or father as for establishing the genetic makeup of the baby. The genetic makeup of the baby has been established already. This baby now needs a warm womb and nutrients from this womb to grow. So the mechanics are different but the concept is same as raza'at . These nutrients from the surrogate mother do not alter the genetics of this baby. Once the surrogate mother has been impregnated with this embryo the conjugal relationship of this surrogate couple will not alter this embryo in any way.

Though I would not agree with the logic you have presented behind the radaa. It might have been that way when started but was very normal in the earlier ages even if there was no need for it. It would be a rare instance in which a mother giving birth does not have milk to suckle the baby with. I do not know why the norm was such centuries ago but the reason you have stated might have been the original reason however it became more widespread in application. Your point does hold some water though, it was a surrogate/substitute arrangement for one who could not provide it.

I think you have done your homework well on this topic and for now I think I agree that the concept may be the same, though the mechanics are different. It is primarily the mechanics which make the issue perplexing from a legal stand point because carrying someone elses baby is a far bigger ordeal than just suckling a child. Another thing that comes to my head is that in gestational surrogacy, the surrogate mothers ovulation is stopped through medicines as far as I know so obviously there is a chance of genetic interference unless there is some other reason which I do not understand and you can enlighten on.

[hareem01]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

Since the scholars haven't done enough research on gestational surrogacy and its status of being haram or halal is not clear, so we should avoid indulging in it. Also we should keep in mind that in most western countries a surrogate mother can refuse handing over the baby to the couple after it is born.

[USResident]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

Since the scholars haven't done enough research on gestational surrogacy and its status of being haram or halal is not clear, so we should avoid indulging in it. Also we should keep in mind that in most western countries a surrogate mother can refuse handing over the baby to the couple after it is born.

Agree that we should stay away from it until legalities are defined. I doubt we can declare it halal or haram but we can definitely set the legalities involved with it, which will leave it to individual choice and contractual basis.

I don't know what the laws are in US for gestational surrogacy, I'm positive something like this will have defined laws as to who has right to the child. IMO the biological mother should have rights. The surrogate mother is knowingly agreeing to carry someone elses biological child as a service. If she wants biological children of her own then she can have them with her own spouse.

[Anwer_Pasha]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

[RIGHT]
شادی شدہ جوڑے کے علاوہ ٹیسٹ ٹیوب بے بی کے دیگر طریقے غیر شرعی ہوں گے، وفاقی شریعت عدالت
[/RIGHT]

https://c.tribune.com.pk/2017/02/1334709-babyhandx-1487701776-412-640x480.jpg

Federal Shariat Court declares test tube babies legal - The Express Tribune
Validates surrogacy only if the married couple is involved in entire process; suggests for punishment otherwise
TRIBUNE.COM.PK

ٹیسٹ ٹیوب بے بی کا طریقہ کار جائز قرار](ٹیسٹ ٹیوب بے بی کا طریقہ کار جائز قرار - Pakistan - Dawn News Urdu)
شادی شدہ جوڑے کے علاوہ ٹیسٹ ٹیوب بے بی کے دیگر طریقے غیر شرعی ہوں گے، وفاقی شریعت عدالت

[mahool]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

@Anwer_Pasha

[RIGHT]
شادی شدہ جوڑے کے علاوہ ٹیسٹ ٹیوب بے بی کے دیگر طریقے غیر شرعی ہوں گے، وفاقی شریعت عدالت
[/RIGHT]

https://c.tribune.com.pk/2017/02/1334709-babyhandx-1487701776-412-640x480.jpg

Federal Shariat Court declares test tube babies legal - The Express Tribune
Validates surrogacy only if the married couple is involved in entire process; suggests for punishment otherwise
TRIBUNE.COM.PK

ٹیسٹ ٹیوب بے بی کا طریقہ کار جائز قرار](ٹیسٹ ٹیوب بے بی کا طریقہ کار جائز قرار - Pakistan - Dawn News Urdu)
شادی شدہ جوڑے کے علاوہ ٹیسٹ ٹیوب بے بی کے دیگر طریقے غیر شرعی ہوں گے، وفاقی شریعت عدالت

yar jab aesi chezon kay fatway aaty hain to bohat dukh hota hia… idhar mulk main aag lagi hoye hia.. aur hamary han ulema halal aur haram par behas kar rahay hian…

Shah Waliallah… jis maqtool kay qatil ka pata na ho uska qatil hakim e waqt hai…

[ajazali]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

@mahool

yar jab aesi chezon kay fatway aaty hain to bohat dukh hota hia… idhar mulk main aag lagi hoye hia.. aur hamary han ulema halal aur haram par behas kar rahay hian…

Shah Waliallah… jis maqtool kay qatil ka pata na ho uska qatil hakim e waqt hai…

to apnay halal haram honay ki khud hi tasdeeq kyon kr rhay thy? apnay halal haram honay ki bohat fikar hai tumain?

@mahool

… kionkay main un logon main say nahi hon… jo har waari main NADRA office bhaghty hain aur waldiyat update karwaty hian… Halal Khoon hai to sahi aur ghalat ki tameez kar sakta hia…
support karty hain… kion woh app jaisay logon ka tasub dekhty hian …

Once a jamati… always a jamati… app jamation main uthna bhetna chor dein… aesay foolish qisam ki khabrain post kar kay… app ki credibility kharab ho rahi hia…

[mahool]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

@ajazali

to apnay halal haram honay ki khud hi tasdeeq kyon kr rhay thy? apnay halal haram honay ki bohat fikar hai tumain?

app har kissi apni tarah kion samjhty hian…

nadra](http://gupshup.org/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=Nadra) update](http://gupshup.org/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=Update) #naan-wala](http://gupshup.org/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=naan-wala)

[ajazali]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

@mahool

app har kissi apni tarah kion samjhty hian…

nadra](http://gupshup.org/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=Nadra) update](http://gupshup.org/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=Update) #naan-wala](http://gupshup.org/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=naan-wala)

khud hi keh rhy ho halal haram ki fikar chorro. aur apnay k halal honay k dhandoora peet-tay ho. baee tumain kisi nai poocha tum halal k ho ya haram k? ab itni tumain khud ki fikar apnay halal honay ki to baqion ko kyon na ho ? munfiqat?

[mahool]

Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?

@ajazali

khud hi keh rhy ho halal haram ki fikar chorro. aur apnay k halal honay k dhandoora peet-tay ho. baee tumain kisi nai poocha tum halal k ho ya haram k? ab itni tumain khud ki fikar apnay halal honay ki to baqion ko kyon na ho ? munfiqat?

kufar kay fatway ki machine…
aesi fatwon ki koi zarorat nahi hi… har zi sahoor insan janta hai… sperm sirf shadi shuda joron main qabile qabool hota hia… surrogacy begir nikkah kay haram hai… ab aesay chezon par faway aain gain to dil khon kay anso roye ga…

ulema ko chahiye kay horon ki lambain aur sperm donation ko chor kar … waqt kay taqazy ko samjhain aur munafqit par mabni tanzeemon ki sarkobi karain… takay phir sehwan jaisay waqiat ronoma na hon…

har thread main ghus kar jamati na bano.. insan bano… har jagah akar tang utha kar tamash mat dikho…