Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?
Imagine how it would have been without pathidine and entonox? All I am saying is there are better ways available to reduce the pain today which did not exist before. I did not say its painless.
It would have been better without entonox and surely without pathidine, my thigh still hurts bcoz of that pathetic pathidine, it also delayed the labour, thats why I didn't take it at the time of my second baby and inshaAllah won't take it in the future.
Even with all the inventions of these pain relief things and epidural we can't say that today women suffer less pain because these things don't work for majority of women and they have their side effects and risks as well for mothers and for the babies.
Also C-section might be less painful than the natural birth but it is more risky and unsafe for both mother and baby, it also has more side effects.
Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?
Maternal death rates I would think would be taken into account as to when/how a woman would/should be impregnated.
The death of a woman giving birth is far more serious than any pain she experiences. Regardless, With the advent of modern medicine and proceudres as well as pain relief options, it goes without saying the pain experienced today has been reduced.
I have known women who have planned caesareans and awoke with no or very little pain.
I have no doubt of the pain women put up with to give birth to a child. There is no "pain-free" procedure per se. The procedures have evolved though. Before it used to be purely manual labor, now there are techniques and other 'methods' in place that ensure an almost pain-free delivery, Although it's not totally pain-free.
So yes there is pain, anyway you look at it. And for that i respect you ladies so much.
You guys have no idea what you're talking about.....sheeeeeesh
Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?
Peace USResident
When did one ‘contraction’ mean that the delivery had to be vaginal. Women who give birth by C-section or any other manner more often than not must go through at least one ‘contraction’ .. does that hadith still not qualify?
As for whether the pain is more or less … does that negate the rest of the term the mother carries the baby and despite that if the surrogate mother has a C-section is it completely comfortable and effect less or are there recovery consequences? Did she not bear the pain of the child may be not during delivery but what about the after affects?
Often technology does not take pain away completely it often off-sets it in to other areas of discomfort …
C-section has consequences otherwise not found in normal delivery. It comes with it’s burdens … besides my question was not answered where would the status of the surrogate mother be if it was made acceptable? Equal to the mother? That would present legal complications with respect to obedience of mother and inheritence, etc
I think it is a bit severe to call surrogate pregnancy zina unless it is done through the act of sex, otherwise if it insemination based on the embryo of the husband and wife then I think we can’t call it zina but there are many other problems it creates other than the fact the child was not born of its biological mother.
Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?
Peace USResident
When did one 'contraction' mean that the delivery had to be vaginal. Women who give birth by C-section or any other manner more often than not must go through at least one 'contraction' .. does that hadith still not qualify?
As for whether the pain is more or less ... does that negate the rest of the term the mother carries the baby and despite that if the surrogate mother has a C-section is it completely comfortable and effect less or are their recovery consequences? Did she not bear the pain of the child may be not during delivery but what about the after affects?
Often technology does not take pain away completely it often off-sets it in to other areas of discomfort ...
C-section has consequences otherwise not found in normal delivery. It comes with it's burdens ... besides my question was not answered where would the status of the surrogate mother be if it was made acceptable? Equal to the mother? That would present legal complications with respect to obedience of mother and inheritence, etc
My point is simple, today we are better equipped to offset the pain and speed up recovery. There is no denying that.
I think it is a bit severe to call surrogate pregnancy zina unless it is done through the act of sex, otherwise if it insemination based on the embryo of the husband and wife then I think we can't call it zina but there are many are problems it creates other than the fact the child was not born of its biological mother.
This is what I had sort of emphasized in my first post as well. There are other sensitivities that would have to be dealt with, which have no straight answers. I do not think we can call it Zina. Is biological mother the one who carries the embryo or the one whose eggs are used would be the question? What defines the biological relationship? I do not think there is a straight answer to that, which is why I would probably vote against it.
Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?
This whole thread is a red herring, trying to find scripture (and the oh-so-sacred sayings) for a procedure that didn't exist when all that was written.
Searching so hard that people are quoting things like guard their private parts except from their spouses *and *you have not even paid back one twinge of her labour pain when she gave birth to you as if they are related to this issue.
It's all red herrings. Or at least opinion since this procedure was not an option 1400 years ago.
Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?
My point is simple, today we are better equipped to offset the pain and speed up recovery. There is no denying that.
This is what I had sort of emphasized in my first post as well. There are other sensitivities that would have to be dealt with, which have no straight answers. I do not think we can call it Zina. Is biological mother the one who carries the embryo or the one whose eggs are used would be the question? What defines the biological relationship? I do not think there is a straight answer to that, which is why I would probably vote against it.
Peace USResident bro
I agree with your first point ... don't mind the missus she gets angry when men try to explain things they have no idea about how it feels, but I did try to explain to her that if the technology was useless then why do so many women insist on using those techniques?
Totally agree with the next point too ... If some people call a child born out of wedlock a criteria for zina then that is dangerous especially with regards to what we understand about Isa (AS) ... however, to say the impregnation was artificially done then that is subject to ijtihad because it is a new matter. When it comes to motherhood one can only have one mother. If anything the surrogate mother has a greater claim on the child because she has had to forebear more time, more pain more of her blood is shared even though it is not her genetics. It is her effort and the psycho-spiritual bond is formed with her also. That presents a lot of problems on the paper. It is like having your "biological" mother as a step mother and your "surrogate" mother as your actual mother if it comes down to attempting to legalise the whole situation.
Potentially this scenario should be entertained, because it is quite possible for a surrogate mother born person could potentially become a Muslim in later life and would then be subejcted to such conditions.
Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?
Peace USResident bro
I agree with your first point ... don't mind the missus she gets angry when men try to explain things they have no idea about how it feels, but I did try to explain to her that if the technology was useless then why do so many women insist on using those techniques?
Totally agree with the next point too ... If some people call a child born out of wedlock a criteria for zina then that is dangerous especially with regards to what we understand about Isa (AS) ... however, to say the impregnation was artificially done then that is subject to ijtihad because it is a new matter. When it comes to motherhood one can only have one mother. If anything the surrogate mother has a greater claim on the child because she has had to forebear more time, more pain more of her blood is shared even though it is not her genetics. It is her effort and the psycho-spiritual bond is formed with her also. That presents a lot of problems on the paper. It is like having your "biological" mother as a step mother and your "surrogate" mother as your actual mother if it comes down to attempting to legalise the whole situation.
Potentially this scenario should be entertained, because it is quite possible for a surrogate mother born person could potentially become a Muslim in later life and would then be subejcted to such conditions.
Oh don't worry. Your missus is moi sister. I was going to give the same argument you just gave her.
With the example that Mirch has quoted about wet nurses. I do not think it awards the status of a surrogate mother (a substitute for mother) but rather determines the classification of mahram and non-mahram. In Islam there are no aspects related to wet nurses which make them recipients of other privileges of motherhood and inheritance. They just become mahrams. I agree if there is a case of surrogate mother then probably the surrogate mother should have legal status of a biological mother IMO. For the biological mother, it becomes more like adoption in practice or rearing of a surrogate child. This would be hard for both mothers, which is why I think it should not be prefered. Or atleast the legalities should be understood based on the country's laws. This could end up ruining the lives of both mothers and the child. To me the first priority should be on how the child will be protected in this scenario. As you mentioned this is something new, I don't think we can make halal or haram but we can make it legal or illegal depending on the countries laws. It would depend on the society's acceptance and understanding.
Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?
When it comes to motherhood one can only have one mother. If anything the surrogate mother has a greater claim on the child because she has had to forebear more time, more pain more of her blood is shared even though it is not her genetics. It is her effort and the psycho-spiritual bond is formed with her also. That presents a lot of problems on the paper. It is like having your "biological" mother as a step mother and your "surrogate" mother as your actual mother if it comes down to attempting to legalise the whole situation.
Potentially this scenario should be entertained, because it is quite possible for a surrogate mother born person could potentially become a Muslim in later life and would then be subejcted to such conditions.
Now compare it with what I said in my first post. Does milk suckling of a woman other than biological mother not create the same bond ? So what is the point ?
The point is if surrogacy by milk suckling is allowed in Islam then why gestational surrogacy be not allowed ?
Surrogacy for milk suckling lasts 720 days while gestational surrogacy will last only 270 days. So bond will be stronger in the former case than the later. What do you say ?
As for your point about having only one mother that is not valid because surrogacy by milk suckling also makes this women mother of the baby to the extent that Nikha is not allowed with surrogate brothers and sisters.
Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?
Now compare it with what I said in my first post. Does milk suckling of a woman other than biological mother not create the same bond ? So what is the point ?
The point is if surrogacy by milk suckling is allowed in Islam then why gestational surrogacy be not allowed ?
Surrogacy for milk suckling lasts 720 days while gestational surrogacy will last only 270 days. So bond will be stronger in the former case than the later. What do you say ?
As for your point about having only one mother that is not valid because surrogacy by milk suckling also makes this women mother of the baby to the extent that Nikha is not allowed with surrogate brothers and sisters.
Is milk suckling really to be considered surrogacy though? Surrogacy is essentially substituting something. Milk suckling is not surrogating a mother. One could feed pumped milk from another woman without the baby ever really suckling her, the same ruling would apply. Gestational surrogacy would indeed be surrogating your uterus with some other womans uterus. However what determines the biological relationship between a mother and child. Is it biological relationship the same as genetic lineage?
Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?
Yes this word is used for surrogacy by milk suckling also in Islamic Fiqh.
Here is the dictionary meaning fromhttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/surrogate
Main Entry: 1sur·ro·gate http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif Pronunciation: \ˈsər-ə-ˌgāt, ˈsə-rə-\ Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): sur·ro·gat·ed; sur·ro·gat·ing Etymology: Latin surrogatus, past participle of surrogare to choose in place of another, substitute, from sub- + rogare to ask — more at right Date: 1533 : to put in the place of another: a**:** to appoint as successor, deputy, or substitute for oneself
Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?
I think what you are saying is based on Islamic fiqh, which IMO needs to be revised. The only form of surrogacy in the earlier centruies that could have been thought of was milk suckling. Today as surrogacy stands, milk suckling may not be necessarily qualified as a surrogacy. IMO, it never was meant for surrogacy as intended in mother. I say this because no where in our texts does milk suckling grant the women the same rights as a mother on the child that she suckled. It does make her mahram. So IMO milk suckling never should have been associated with surrogacy but rather a classification of mahram. For instance, if you suckled too much from your wife your nikah can become invalid according to our fiqh, not because she attains the status of your mother but because she becomes mahram in relationship to you. The same principle extends to half-siblings who have been suckled by the same woman yet having different fathers. It probably ended up being so in our Islamic fiqh of centuries old because no other form of surrogacy was imgaginale at the time as compared surrogacy as we know it today. So to me IMO milk suckling should not used as an example of surrogacy in motherhood.
Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?
I think what you are saying is based on Islamic fiqh, which IMO needs to be revised. The only form of surrogacy in the earlier centuries that could have been thought of was milk suckling. Today as surrogacy stands, milk suckling may not be necessarily qualified as a surrogacy. IMO, it never was meant for surrogacy as intended in mother. I say this because no where in our texts does milk suckling grant the women the same rights as a mother on the child that she suckled. It does make her mahram. So IMO milk suckling never should have been associated with surrogacy but rather a classification of mahram. For instance, if you suckled too much from your wife your nikha can become invalid according to our fiqh, not because she attains the status of your mother but because she becomes mahram in relationship to you. The same principle extends to half-siblings who have been suckled by the same woman yet having different fathers. It probably ended up being so in our Islamic fiqh of centuries old because no other form of surrogacy was imgaginale at the time as compared surrogacy as we know it today. So to me IMO milk suckling should not used as an example of surrogacy in motherhood.
First a clarification please read more on milk suckling by wife . Husband and wife are mahram for each other anyways. No amount of milk suckling invalidate nikha , according to fuqaha , 'Raza'at' is limited to two years of age after that suckling does not establish 'Raza'at'. The available ijtehad on this subject is abundant and I agree with this position.
You will find some Ahadees in Bukhari where Rasool Allah (SAW) made an adult man suckle an adult lactating woman to establish 'Raza'at' between them but IMO this and ahadees like it are fake. Why I think so is a seperate topic.
Now back to the surrogacy . A surrogate mother in this case is being used as a test tube where a pre-fertilized egg is placed in her womb. I cannot find any verse from Quran or any hadees to apply to this situation and deem it against Islami sharia. Why everything new for which no Islamic laws and fiqh are available has to be necessarily against Islam ? Why can't it be other way around ?
Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?
First a clarification please read more on milk suckling by wife . Husband and wife are mahram for each other anyways. No amount of milk suckling invalidate nikha , according to fuqaha , 'Raza'at' is limited to two years of age after that suckling does not establish 'Raza'at'. The available ijtehad on this subject is abundant and I agree with this position.
You will find some Ahadees in Bukhari where Rasool Allah (SAW) made an adult man suckle an adult lactating woman to establish 'Raza'at' between them but IMO this and ahadees like it are fake. Why I think so is a seperate topic.
Now back to the surrogacy . A surrogate mother in this case is being used as a test tube where a pre-fertilized egg is placed in her womb. I cannot find any verse from Quran or any hadees to apply to this situation and deem it against Islami sharia. Why everything new for which no Islamic laws and fiqh are available has to be necessarily against Islam ? Why can't it be other way around ?
Could you please quote references because I have not recently studied the latest ijtihad on milk suckling between spouses. My information could be outdated though I would like to see the reasoning or evidence given for this new ijtihad.
The hadith about an adult man being suckled by an adult woman is controversial and infact stirred some controversy a while ago when some scholar from Egypt used it to legitimize some issue related to women in the workplace with na-mahram males. However if you have read that hadith it is not graphic in narrative to assume their was physical contact between the two rather the assumption should be on the side of dignity that the milk was brought to the man (whose name I think was Saleem) and he drank it and not physical milk suckling occured.
I absolutely agree that everything new does not have to be declared anti-Islamic. I think the same way as you do. This is also why I said the status of milk suckling should be removed from surrogacy because I think it really does not belong there anymore.
Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?
Now back to the surrogacy . A surrogate mother in this case is being used as a test tube where a pre-fertilized egg is placed in her womb. I cannot find any verse from Quran or any hadees to apply to this situation and deem it against Islami sharia. Why everything new for which no Islamic laws and fiqh are available has to be necessarily against Islam ? Why can't it be other way around ?
The thing is can the surrogate mother relinquish her claim to motherhood without ever re-visiting it. Another question would be legally who would awarded the status of mother for the child. For the biological mother this could be also deemed as adoption. The answer lies in determining whether in Islam the real mother is the one who carries the child in the womb or the one whose eggs give birth to the child. I think unless there is a concensus on this question, the gestational surrogacy issue should not be taken further. Who in your opinion should be the status of the real mother of the child. From the Quran I consider the birth related to the sperm and eggs not the womb/uterus (it is said many places in the Quran that Allah SWT created us from a despised drop of semen or Nutfah). Uterus is the environment which develops the child IMO.
It clearly invalidates your claim that fuqaha do not prohibit such deviated acts. Please read carefully because there are two questions and I don’t think they have been answered too clearly.
One question refers to “Sucking” the second question refers to “Suk-L-ing” … the latter being to an extent where milk is consumed. The act of mouth to breast is not what invalidates the nikkah it is the consumption of the milk which is where that hadith becomes very useful and knowledge of expressing that milk had made on one instant a person into a nursed-son. The limit for suckling is two years for ones own child.
Re: Outsourcing Motherhood - Is it allowed in Islam ?
Seminole, USR....with all due respect, men have no right to talk about the pain a woman experiences when she gives birth. :)
I think post-operative pain after a deviated septum operation is prolly more painful than child-birth. I had this op twice and it was five days of somebody banging a hammer on my head with every breath. So we men know the pain too. My wife for some reason does not agree.