Open answer to brother PartyPooper !

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

By Musalman :AKHAND BHARAT: The dream that went sour! The great ideological defeat of Hinduism by Islam!

Brother PartyPooper commented:
QUOTE
Musalman, if you don’t mind I would like to respond to your post.
I simply have to get this off my chest. I have kept quiet before when you posted stuff because I felt that my comments would not be welcome. But please allow me get one thing clear at least.
I am ashamed of you. I am ashamed of calling you my muslim brother.
Why?
Because you don’t act like one. Over the past few days you have managed to insult every Hindu on this forum. You are possibly the most insensitive muslim I know. And as such, you are not my favourite ambassador of Islam.
I have been wondering at what you have meant by the inflammatory posts that you have placed on this forum. Is it possible that you are good intentioned but were simply unconscious while insulting others? Or does your deliberate arrogance give you a valid excuse to criticize non-muslims?
Only you can answer that my brother. I do not know your heart and intentions. All I know are the words and actions that I have seen from you over the last few days in this forum. And believe me, those actions show a profound lack of respect and understanding for a basic principle of Islam. That has led to you having a profound lack of respect and understanding for people in general. Especially non-muslim brothers and sisters.
How do you think you are faring on this path? If you think you can propogate Islam at the expense of other religions then you have another thing coming. Every criticism on another person’s beliefs and every intellectual attack on his/her philosophy makes the other person prone to criticising our own beliefs rather than accepting them.
Musalman, I advise you as a brother to rethink about your approach. There is no doubt that you have a great deal of knowledge which can benefit me and many people on this forum. Simply take the arrogance factor out of the equation. It will help you to become more understanding and far more objective. Otherwise it makes you look bad. Remember, a good discussion is one where all participants benefit mutually. It is not a battle. It is not a zero-sum game. Take this into account and then will you be successful
UNQUOTE

REPLY:

Dear brother PartyPooper
and all those who sympathize with non-believers and Mushrikun, among them are Hindus, First of all I am not ashamed to call you as my Muslim brother neither am I ashamed of any thing that I had written. Secondly, I have a good news for all of you, EVERY THING, EVERY ASPECT of their belief will be defeated, their ideology, their land, their people, their customs, their traditions, their civilization thus every thing that they ever owned or associated to themselves will be subdued by the virtue of the following words of ALLAH (SWT).

Surah As-Saff, Verse, 9
He it is Who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all (other) religions even though the Mushrikun [polytheists(Hindus), idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His Messenger PBUH] hate it.

Also by virtue of the following words of ALLAH (SWT), we are ordered to wage Jihad be it physical, psychological or ideological till either they embrace Islam or they become a protected community under Islam. Intellectual attack on their belief is completely justified, because their belief is wrong and would not stand any intellectual attack. They are more then welcome to defend any intellectual attack. After all a Muslim is always prepared to defend the DEEN of ALLAH (SWT) by HU’s will from any attack, call it intellectual or any thing else. As far as insult is concern, Ideological warfare is by no means any Insult.

Surah Al-Qital, Verse 4
Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah’s Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others.

Remember Dawa and Jihad can go together. Truth is Truth whether One likes it or not. Yes, kindly let me know if you ever feel that part or any of my messages do no confirm to QURAN and SUNNAH of the Messenger (PBUH) of ALLAH (SWT)

[This message has been edited by Musalman (edited November 22, 2000).]

2

there is no compulsion in religion.

nuff said.

3

Who is being compulsive here? Do people see me twisting your arm to accept Islam.

4

Now, where could I possibly get that idea???? Hmmmmmm. Oh yeah:

[quote]
Originally posted by Musalman:
*Also by virtue of the following words of ALLAH (SWT), we are ordered to wage Jihad be it physical, psychological or ideological till either they embrace Islam or they become a protected community under Islam. *
[/quote]

Your version of Islam alienates more Muslims than causes non-Muslims to convert.

5

That’s an old trick astrofan! Do not attempt to give an impression that I have a different version of Islam. There are no versions of Islam. Islam is universal. We know this old trick. Always unsuccessfully played by the non-believers during the course of time.

Surah Al-Qital, Verse 4
Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others.

[This message has been edited by Musalman (edited November 22, 2000).]

6

So you are twisting my arm to convert to Islam.

7

All Sympathizers of non-believers and Mushrikun, (Hindus) read the following:

Words of ALLAH (SWT), Surah Al-'Imran, Verse 118

O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Hindus, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.

Following is a very small example of what they have to say about you and your DEEN, they are not necessarily replies to me:
QUOTE
* US HINDUS ARE SUPERIOR THAN THEM MUSLIMS IN EVERY RESPECT."
* I think Allah forgot to pur some brain in yous head. Instead he must have put some cow dung there
*OIC should be renamed from Organization of Islamic Countries to Organization of Islamic Cowards.
*Muslim umma a big joke of the century.
* Let the pakis bark
*There is no paradise everything is on this earth...as for only muslim going to paradise bunch of hogwash.
*Me-thinks, that had any-other country been in place of India, Pakistan would have been bombed three times over for the kind of terrorist-activities (by proxy) , it indulges in.
* We crushed the Pakis in 1971
* I don't think God can ever say "please me or I will throw you in hell fire"...this sounds so funny.... You make me laugh...
* The Pak-sponsored terrorism needs to be strangulated by the balls
* but that does not take away anything from the cowardly/terrorist act.
* Unless its OK in Islam to do anything in the name of Jehad.
* A hindu telling an other brother: You are pathetic and i pity people like you and feel sorry for anybody who comes in contact with you.
* Why doesn't Pakistan take all the Muslims from India and become the First largest Muslims country.
* Hindu referring to one brother: as my neighbor's dog !!
UNQUOTE

Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. (3:118)

8

As far as versions go, I can count at least 4 on my hand

  1. Sunni
  2. Shia
  3. Wahabi
  4. Submissionists (followers of Dr. Rashad Khalifa)

heck, why not just go to the submissionist website http://www.submission.org/home.html and see if their “version” of Islam is different from yours. Especially since their headline is:

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

“Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians the converts; anyone who
(1) believes in GOD and
(2) believes in the Hereafter, and
(3) leads a righteous life,
will receive their recompense from their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.”
[Quran 5:69, 2:62]

I believe this contradicts most of what you have said. (Oh yeah, there’s that whole God thing again).

9

astrofan, this thread is not for me to answer your questions regarding ISLAM. If you need to have any clarifications, then kindly open up another thread, where I will be more then glad to explain you the Message of ALLAH (SWT). May ALLAH (SWT) open your heart.

Further more, there is no version in Islam. Allah (SWT) has perfected HU’s DEEN. Any one who thinks that there are different versions of Islam is not Muslim. Islam is one complete and universal message.

Sunni, Shia etc. etc. is different school of thoughts and not versions. We all have One Book "Al-Quran" and we believe in the same Messanger "Muhammad (PBUH)". ISLAM is the perfect DEEN.

Now Rashid Khalifa, he is a pretender a non-believer. He is in the same category as Salman Rushdi. May ALLAH (SWT) curse on him, and may ALLAH grant him what he deserve.

Following is his proclamation:

"The only religion approved by God is Submission......"
But ALLAH (SWT) says:
“SURELY THE ONLY DEEN IN THE SIGHT OF ALLAH IS AL-ISLAM” (3:19)

"Anyone who accepts other than Submission as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter, he will be with the losers."
But ALLAH (SWT) says:
“IF ANYONE IS LOOKING FOR A RELIGION OTHER THEN ISLAM, THEN LET IT BE KNOWN THAT IT WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED FROM HIM; AND IN THE HEREAFTER HE WILL BE AMONG LOSERS. (3:85)

So, His religion is “Submission” and our DEEN is ISLAM. What he believe is outside the fold of ISLAM, because “Submission” is not “ISLAM”.

[This message has been edited by Musalman (edited November 22, 2000).]

10

Umm, I asked no questions concerning clarification on Islam. And if I did, I would ask it at understanding-islam.com, not of you.

I’m really wondering if you know of the world of Islam around you. Let’s take an example. Ibn Warriq wrote a book, “Why I am not a Muslim”. scathing stuff. In response, Jeremiah D. McAuliffe, Jr., Ph.D., wrote a pretty popular response to it, located at http://idt.net/~balboa19/warraq/warraq1a.html

I point this out because he makes the following points:

  1. “We often see this in Muslims who are possessed of an inordinate hatred for our Jewish cousins, or an inordinate hatred of non-Muslims, or who are harshly judgmental towards their Muslim brothers and sisters who may understand the Qur’an and sunnah a bit differently than they do. Such people will cite verses related to times of war, take them out of context, and disconnect them from the ethos presented by the Qur’an and sunnah as a whole.”

  2. “There is a failure to recognize Muslim self-criticism.”

  3. "The Qur’an is not a history book, nor is it a science text. At its most basic it is a book that addresses the issue of that Who (or which) transcends humanity-- and it uses stories to do so. More specifically, it uses parables: stories meant not just for entertainment, but for teaching. "

  • I’m sure you liked the one above. Whether it is parables or mythology, the lessons taught are the same *

(4)"The “closing the doors to ijtihad” was, in my opinion, a disastrous error and has left most of us-- even our traditionally educated scholars-- unprepared to respond to contemporary questions about Islam and unable to engage in effective da’wah with contemporary people. "

(5)“so many Muslims will argue that monotheism is “superior” to polytheism-- but this is not a philosophical argument used in the Qur’an, it is an item of revelation and so is accepted primarily on faith and only secondarily on reason. There is a big difference between the two! Our own lack of theological sophistication on such topics provides fuel for his anti-Muslim polemic.”

  • Monotheism? But I thought there was no God??? pfft/ *
  1. “Muslims talk a good talk about “unity”, but the ummah is, in fact, sectarian. Who’s vision and understanding of the Qur’an and sunnah is correct? The Sufi? The Wahabi? The Taliban’s? Hamas’? The Khalifite? The Sunni? The Shia? Who is correct? Conservatives, modernists, traditionalists, etc. etc.?
    Those who give witness that there is no god but God and Muhammad is the messenger of God need to realize that unity does not mean uniformity. But we need unity in front of those who are actively hostile towards us. And that means being honest with ourselves and with others about our faults and defects. We cannot allow our own poor practice of Islam to be used in attacks against the Qur’an and Mohammad’s sunnah.”
  • Ouch! Maybe you’re not converting these people correctly.*
11

Astrofan,

actually, it's also part of Islam to accept that there will be sectarianism in Islam. 73 sects to be precise. Even if they are not being 'converted properly' in your words, they still seem to call themselves muslims for some reason.

12

Wait, so anyone who calls themselves Muslim is actually a Muslim?

Ahmadis, Ismaelis, Sufis, Submissionists, anyone?

And as far as I can tell, Dr. Rashad was a treasured member of the Islamic community when he found the 19's all over the Quran. It was only when he thought himself a prophet (for having found the 19's) that he was excommunicated, which possibly led to his assassination.

[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited November 23, 2000).]

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NO ! any one calling him self Muslim is not Muslim, only people who follow true Islam are Muslims. Ahmadis, Submissionists are the examples of Non Muslims.

14

I see, so what you're telling me is that Islam is a much smaller religion than most people here believe.

The Nation of Islam (www.noi.org) believes, among other things, the following

[quote]
WE BELIEVE that we who declare ourselves to be righteous Muslims, should not participate in wars which take the lives of humans.
WE BELIEVE that Allah (God) appeared in the Person of Master W. Fard Muhammad, July, 1930; the long-awaited "Messiah" of the Christians and the "Mahdi" of the Muslims. We believe further and lastly that Allah is God and besides HIM there is no god and He will bring about a universal government of peace wherein we all can live in peace together.
[/quote]

  • More of this God stuff*

So all the blacks led by Louis Farakkhan, they also are not Muslims? Those who convert simply because they are disenchanted with the Christian church, and not because they are truly Muslim at heart, they also aren't Muslim?

I wonder where those folks are who said that Islam does not condone religious killings. Musalman clearly thinks you should kill in the name of Islam, if people do not convert. Are you saying, Musalman, that those guppies who think Islam does not condone religious killing are not Muslim either?

15

Any one who BELIEVE that Allah appeared in the Person of Master W. Fard Muhammad, July, 1930; the long-awaited "Messiah" of the Christians and the "Mahdi" of the Muslims is a non Muslim. This nonsense has nothing to do with Islam. In-fact it is close to Hinduism, Where there are lots of GODS, and they had often visited in human forms, and then hindus worship them, means commiting SHIRK.

Eternal hellfire awaits for Idol worshippers, and since Hinduism allow Idol worshipping, thereby all those who follow Hinduism will be thrown into hellfire, which will never extinguish . The dwellers of hellfire will pray that they become dust, but that wont happen either. The dwellers of hell fire (Hindus included) will stay there for eternity. There is only one way to prevent from this eternal hellfire, and that is to declare:

There is no god, only ALLAH, and Muhammad is the Messenger of ALLAH.

16

*003.007 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or
fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are
allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is
allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows
its hidden meanings except God. *

I have to wonder - why is God a "boogeyman" concept, but hellfire isn't? Perhaps, you are the one who thinks the allegory of hellfire is literal and seeks discord.

Also, we have established that the following

  • Ahmedies/Qadianies
  • Submissionists
  • NOI Black Muslims

are not Muslims, though they say they are part of Islam. This clearly constitutes versioning, and not simple sectarianism. Their version of Islam is different from yours.

And if their version of Islam is different from yours, maybe it is your version that also different from the Islam that the rest of this board conceives as true Islam.