[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
...By far, more Muslims have been killed by fellow Muslims, and not by the US or Israel. And that's a fact....
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and that gives everyone else a right to kill them? Afghanistan is still crying, people are still eating grass, not everyone got the bread yet which we were hearing in the media which showed Taliban so bad. is current Afghanistan in a good shape as promised?
What a bull…
The country who is not even close to a threat is about to be bombed, and the country who is continuously openly threatening is let go… :k: whata logic.
I am sure with people like you, GWB will be relected for next 4 years.
Changez, do you think Afghanistan is worse today than it was under the Taliban? Why do you think most Afghan refugees have returned? The years of crap left behind by hoodlums does take more than a few weeks to clean up. And there is no justification to kill Muslims, just as there's no justification to kill Americans and Jews, as propagated by grass eating terrorists. The War hasn’t even begun yet, but we already know about the 100s of 1000s of Iraqi casualties. Go figure.
Do you have any suggestion for Iraqis, I mean the Iraqi Army?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
.....
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And OBL and Mullah have been caught and hanged to death.
War is about to begin. What will happen to Saddam Hussein, go figure.
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*Originally posted by myvoice: *
Sorry, but I've got to pin you down on this one. In theory it sounds real great that you say you value life equally. But what does that mean? You pointed out the disparate casualties in two wars as if there was something wrong with that.
You go on to say that it is US policy to kill any number to get Saddam. I asked you and ask you again to suppose that US policy is to "save 10,000 American citizens from death in another attack and spare ourselves $2 trillion in economic losses that also have negative human costs."
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Pin me for what? You started the theory of the Differential Value of Lives and Blood and I gave you my point of view . .. which is .... if some idiots comes in and kills your people .. its not fair to go out and kill as many of their people as you can when you can get the sob who killed your people ... ... thats all ... and now you can sit there and say .. NO we WILL KILL!! Cuz they KILLED! they who?????? What have the Iraqi people done to you? Did they bomb the trade buildings? Did they gas your people? bunch of bul**** this govt has assembled as a proof ... ... EVEN IF its 1% true ... does not mean you can go in there and start killing everybody cuz you can!!
MV, for a moment .. think about it .. if the Govt just wanted to focus on killing that sob, they woudl have dont it .. why are they not doing it? Why do they have to CAPTURE the entire nation? Yeah .. sure , I know .. cant catch him . well .. as someone else said .. they havent caught the biggest terrorist OBL or his Mullah friend ....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
Azkar, you must have been very depressed when Pak Army butchered roughly 3 million Bengalis. ... Life has no consideration when change has to occur. The life those Iraqis are living is not worth a splash of pee on the wall ...
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And who said I was not? References out of place just to show your knowledge go in vain ...
those splashes of pee causing the mightest nation in the world some major trouble ... Again .. Dont even start saying that its about Iraqi people .. its NOT .. it was never meant to liberate .. wake up you dead brains ... someone said .. its an aferaffect .. oh yeah? afteraffect of killing millions? Who gave US the right to go in and chose leaders for these countries .. Let history run its course .. that sob SH may kill a few thousand more but who has lived forever? Which dictator has survived uprising of its people? If US so insists going in to liberate iraqis, what about other countries? Who made US the policeman of this world? ...
And how much do you know about life in Iraq? Given that SH is an evil man, the US govt has done more harm to its people that SH ... And all of this is happening because of those traitor and corrupt Gulf states .. (topic for another discussion) ...
NY ... "Life has no consideration when change has to occur" ... Sure .... Changes will occur ... Life will have meaning ... Maybe time has come for the baigharat Musilm nation to wake up to its brutal dictators and invaders ...
^ wow... i couldn't agree more.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Azkar Choudhry: *
Pin me for what? You started the theory of the Differential Value of Lives and Blood and I gave you my point of view . .. which is .... if some idiots comes in and kills your people .. its not fair to go out and kill as many of their people as you can when you can get the sob who killed your people ... ... thats all ... and now you can sit there and say .. NO we WILL KILL!! Cuz they KILLED! they who?????? What have the Iraqi people done to you? Did they bomb the trade buildings? Did they gas your people? bunch of bul*** this govt has assembled as a proof ... ... EVEN IF its 1% true ... does not mean you can go in there and start killing everybody cuz you can!!
MV, for a moment .. think about it .. if the Govt just wanted to focus on killing that sob, they woudl have dont it .. why are they not doing it? Why do they have to CAPTURE the entire nation? Yeah .. sure , I know .. cant catch him . well .. as someone else said .. they havent caught the biggest terrorist OBL or his Mullah friend ....
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Azkar: With all due respect, I did not start the Theory of the Differential Value of Lives and Blood. You first post in this thread said: "life in our country is more precious than in Iraq ... their 10000 people = 1 of ours." That statement is a repetition of what I have heard many others say in other threads.
If you would step back for a minute, I would hope that you would realize that the US is not planning on killing as many Iraqis as we can. You are a bright and intelligent man and you know that the US could kill every man, woman and child in Iraq in a matter of 10 or 20 minutes if we wanted to without taking a single American casualty.
We are, in fact, urging the regular Iraqi army to surrender, return to their barracks and not fight so we don't have to kill them. I can't for a moment think that YOU actually believe that we would just round these guys into barracks so we could kill them all in one place with a daisy cutter or two.
I believe, my government believes and most Americans believe that Saddam Hussein and his loyalist cadre armed with WMD will one day use them directly or indirectly to kill Americans, Israelis and/or other friends of America. We believe that the only way to eliminate this threat is to do what we are doing. And as a people, we hope and pray that we will have to kill as few Iraqi people as possible to accomplish this and bear witness to as few returning American body bags as possible. If you disagree with our belief and oppose the action based on that differing belief, your position is worthy of acknowledgement and respect.
It is very hard for me to accept that someone like you who has lived in and worked in the US for quite some time and has no doubt created friendships and relationships with many Americans could possibly believe that we are driven to "kill as many of their people as you can" or that we will "start killing everybody cuz you can." And I am also very sorry if your experiences in the US and with the American people were so awful that they led you to conclude that we were capable of that. :(
Azkar, I agree with you and Nadia that Muslims are bayghairat, but don’t take out your frustrations on those who are trying to help. Doing so will only make one’s brains deader. Do you not see the duplicity where all Arabs unanimously are against the invasion of Iraq (after the arab league vote), but the most outspoken ones are the ones acting as host to the Americans (yeah baby). It shows how wrong your emotions are directed. Knock on those Baygharats than throwing phookay kartoos towards Americans, send some plans destroying some 3 story buildings in Riyadh and Abu Zahbi, or is it Dobaee. Yeah start a new topic on Baygharat Muslims (with the heading "oh yeah baby,,baygharat Muslims"), that should be a lot of fun.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
It shows how wrong your emotions are directed.
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My emotions are directed against those traitors more than the so-called liberators ... Dont worry about that ...
And yes, I will do whatever I can to invoke awarness and educate myself on the way ... And yes, I will open threads and possibly honor your name in there to get started .. :-) ...
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US could kill every man, woman and child in Iraq in a matter of 10 or 20 minutes
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Yes . I know that very well… History tells me that … But I also know US has the technology and means to isolate and KILL one person (if they so wished) … Hey .. if you can read headlines on a newspaper from 300 miles above in space, cant you find a bloody murder and dictator and shoot him down?
Yes, you are right. I don’t believe US forces are going there just to haul all people and kill. What I am saying is that people will be killed, regardless (be it they are stupid enough not to leave or their sob leader has pushed them into human-shields)
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I believe, .. that Saddam Hussein .. will one day .. kill Americans, Israelis …
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I believe that too .. And that’s why I say Go get the sob .. Don’t hesitate … I only question the tactics..
And MV .. Please save the emotional speech.. I respect you and I know I have you as a good friend … We are just debating the tactics.. Get the idea out of your mind that I am against any action to kill that ba$tard … All I am asking is ISNT THERE ARE OTHER WAY?? Simple, question … Convince me that there isn’t and US Govt has failed to get rid of a single person … Tough pill for me to swallow …
Hey .. I have nothing against your country, man. Read my posts with a glass of lemon and a sweet potato dish (your specialty) and you will see I am talking just out of the love for human lives … Be it yours or theirs ..
Nicely said my friend. I made a sweet potato last night. Wish you were there to enjoy it with me. BTW, I skipped the lemon and went straight for the whiskey. 
For goodness sake stop thinking with the moustache! If it was all about Saddam the US could have hired someone to snuff him out years ago.
This is clearly,and plainly about subjugation of the Middle East and surrounding Muslim nations. Iraq is being sent out as a signal to countries with any ambitions to go against US global policy.
Iraq will most probably be followed by Iran and Pakistan.
Saying Saddam is a b@stard etc is not going to appease anyone who can see the bigger picture, Saddam is irrelevant.
Hawkish US global policy has always been about taking care of problems before they arise; nuclear-armed Muslim nations are a distinct problem. A hint of radicalism, which is more than abundant in the eyes of Donald Rumsfeld in Iran and Pakistan; and an Iraqi number will be carried out against the nation.
Shock and awe, MOAB’s remind nations that the effect of nuclear war can be felt through conventional weapons. The irrelevancy of the UN was a key stage to highlight, suggesting no nation is safe, it’s either the US way (secularism and US obedience) or the high way (read Iraq tonight).
It may be an idea to read a little of the punitive wars of the Roman Empire to get an idea of where the world is today, it's quite possibly the closest example in history.
Thap, the reason i love reading your replies is because you sum up the situation so well (without any of the emotional rantings i go through). Every word you have written is accurate.
Nadia,
Several times tonight and over the past few days I have hoped I was totally wrong. I've tried to see the sense in the 'coalitions' military action and objectives. I've read the papers scoured the net and watched the news, I have at times wanted/needed to believe that what is happening is in some way 'right'.
I have resigned myself to the fact that the summation in my previous post is where I am mentally, it's not a nice place to be.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Thap: *
*...I have at times wanted/needed to believe that what is happening is in some way 'right'.
I have resigned myself to the fact that the summation in my previous post is where I am mentally, it's not a nice place to be.**
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Once again, you described it so well.. neither do i like the mental position that i cling to currently. i really wish it could be changed, but i can't.
There is a disturbing sense of inevitability to all this.
I guess the US’ psychological war tactics are working, I’m sure I’m not the only one who sees the new order of the world as of tonight. I suppose many eluded to it, but I think it’s now been fully demonstrated.
Thap:
It’s quite refreshing to see someone opposed to US Iraq policy actually frame a cogent argument based upon an analysis of global US policy rather than just repeat the refrain “It’s all about oil” or some other such nonsense.
If I were permitted to change a few words and ideas I would probably find myself in close agreement with you. I think you overestimate the importance to the US of a radical nation being Muslim or even in the Middle East. IMO, any nuclear (or chemically or biologically) armed nation with radical tendencies are considered a distinct problem, regardless of whether that nation is Muslim and regardless of whether it is in the Middle East. I don’t think we would feel any more comfortable with a nuclear armed Cuba or Venezuela than a nuclear armed Iran. I think it’s clear that we are not comfortable with a nuclear armed N. Korea. One of the talking head ex-generals on one of the cable news shows was on the mark when, while watching the attacks in Baghdad today, said “I hope Kim Jong-il is watching.”
Thus, I disagree that the global policy is the “subjugation of the Middle East and surrounding Muslim nations.” In fact, I think any attempted subjugation of the Middle East would work against the object lesson that we are teaching. Such a course of conduct would be more likely to radicalize the region rather than promote internally generated moderation. But, I can certainly see how Muslim nations in the Middle East might have a certain degree of paranoia and might perceive the lesson similarly to yourself. To counteract that, I think how things progress in post-Saddam Iraq and how vigorous we are in imposing a solution on the Israelis, if necessary, that is fair and balanced to the Palestinians will be of great importance.
Myvoice I don’t hold much credence in the US’ committed support of a viable two-nation solution for the Palestinians and Israelis. I have been involved in one way or another in discussions on the region for most of my coherent life.
It seems that this is the carrot to be displayed to the Arabs in times of need. The US very well knows that checking the Israeli’s publicly can win a lot of support throughout the region, I predict that this will also be demonstrated before long, possibly before the next campaign.
On your earlier points, I don’t think isolated perceived rogue nations are deemed much of a threat (N Korea), especially since they do not have a strong ideology. *Ideology is important * to the US, and it is this that is being bombed tonight.
PS: Being part of an extended group of victims, still places one in a position of victimisation. However, I still hold with the veiw that Islam is squarly on the chopping block.