Asif -
[quote]
...that of the 73 sects into which Islam will split only ONE--the sawaad al azam--[which is Sunni] will go to heaven; the others to hell.
[/quote]
Even though I myself was born in a Sunni Muslim family, give me a break here. What's so special about Sunnis?
Mr.
Roman,
you might have been born into a Sunni family but unfortunately for you it seems from your writings that you did not take the trouble to read up about Islam for yourself; if you had you would have known that this position which I have quoted is the position of all the great Muslims of the past which no doubt you will admire; the reason is simple: it is only the Sunnis who are following the way of the Beloved Prophet and His illustrious Companions; only the Sunnis have the same aqeedah as the Companions did and for this reason only the Sunnis can be said to be truly followers of Huzoor Akram sal allahu alayhi wa sallam.
Our Darling Prophet said [alayhi salaam],
My generation is the best generation; then the one after them; then the one after them.
[paraphrase]
and our aqeedah is the same aqeedah as these people had, insha Allah.
And also, the quote aove is a paraphrase of a hadith of the Blessed Messenger alayhi salaato salaam. Or do you not accept hadiths which go against your personal whims??
BTW, can I ask you a few q's please? What is your religion? Your school of thought? what is your view about the position of non-Muslims vis-a-vis jannat?
As brother M saqib ji said they seem to have appointed someone in charge of the religious section who is not familiar with the traditional requirements of his own religion! wallahu aalam. I do not mean any offense by this, Roman , but that's the way it appears otherwise you wouldn't have made such comments.
please find out about what it actually entails when one says i'm a Sunni muslim. Do you know the Aqeedah Tahaawiyyah? This is the basic doctrine of Sunni, orthodox, Islam .
asif
"Can I suggest you one thing that before making very logical and very historical remarks, please, firs,t reveal your own identity because identity because the person with no email, no name and no religion has no rights to attach on the others."
Brother Maulana Allama MSaqibJ and other ulamaa-e-kiraam wa mashaaikh-e-uzzaam of gupshup:
what is this obsession with identity? hain? why do you want to know my identity or my email address? Gimme a good reason. Did I say anything wrong?
MNI
Dear MNI,
C'mon - you should know by now that Terror is at the heart of extremist aquida; Laws of heresy, apostasy, kufr, munafiqen, bidat, etc. all with the purpose of controlling muslims. Note, thus the very non-existence of critics; check out what Asif, Baykthyr, Xtreme, and others have said about my criticism. The muslims of USA, for example, that have left Islam live in constant fear of the Apostasy laws. This aquida which Asif talks about is actually a Cult or movement in terror. I see - you are scared already !
No MNI, I am (myself) is neither obsessed nor interested in your identity.
But to make sure who I am talking to I have right to know who is responding to my posts and what are the beliefs of the person who is trying to prove the others wrongs. Because if a person do not have a religion or if a person do not have a courage to tell us who he is, then he/she does not have any rights to oppose or take part in the selective debates.
When I tell the People that "Only Muslims would go to Heaven, every one else would have to go into Hell Fire and some one opposes my statement then I have all the rights to know the beliefs of that person and if that person is not ready to reveal his/her identity and beliefs then I can only imagin the moral qualities of that person
[This message has been edited by msaqibj (edited June 08, 1999).]
Allow me to intervene and clarify that any registered member that does not violate rules and regulations has every right to post his/her opinion in any thread they choose. Whether they select to do so with their real name or a fictitious one.
There is no further authority on this subject than Admin.
Case closed.
Who will go to heaven and who will not is up to Allah and Allah alone. Muslims do not have a monopoly on heaven, righteous non-Muslims also are permitted in heaven (with some caveats attached). Verses, including 2:62 state this (here I will quote them once again, they are slowly becoming engrained in my memory):
*
"Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve." (2:62)
"Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve." (5:69)
*
I think these verse demonstrate the forgiveness and mercy of God. Those who "doeth right" or are "righteous" have "no fear". Allah knows all, He knows what is in their hearts. And He will choose amongst them on the final day, according to the following verse:
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"Lo! those who believe (this revelation), and those who are Jews, and the Sabaeans and the Christians and the Magians and the idolaters - Lo! ** Allah will decide between them on the Day of Resurrection ** . Lo! Allah is Witness over all things." (22:17)
*
This demonstrates that Muslims do not have a monopoly on heavan, (at least to me), as Christians and Jews believed they did (and many still do). Allah is the Judge.
MNI quoted: "But to counter your apologist obsession with 2:62, let me refer you to Tabari's tafseer where he gives a long detailed account of how Salman-al-farasi told his story to Mr.Mohammad and this verse was allegedly revealed. In light of that incident and the verses that I have quoted -that I bet you will keep ignoring- the jews and christians of the past are the subject of 2:62."
The Tabari you are referring to here, is this the same Tabari who narrated the infamous "Satanic Verses" tradition? To the best of my understanding he was a historian, a collector of Hadith who did not subject his collections to speculative proofs. If the Hadith is valid than what about 5:69 and 22:17, were those also revealed after Salman-al-Farsi told other stories?
MNI quoted: "A word about 2:62, that Mr.Lomax also quoted. Commentators agree (and I have Beidhawi's "Anwar al tanzeel wa asraar al ta'weel" right in front of me as an example) that 2:62 holds for those Jews, Christians and Sabeans who adhered to their faith BEFORE Islam the abrogating religion was offered to them. It does NOT hold for those who reject Islam."
Ok this makes a little more sense. However, the Qur'an is the primary source for Muslims (than the Hadith) and if we examine the verses in question (2:62 and 5:69 and 22:17)) in the Quranic text they are revealed in the present tense, not past. They state "those who ** believe ** ", not "those who ** believed ** ". The Qur'an is believed to be a book of guidance for all time, by Muslims, this verse does not seem to refer to those prior to the Prophethood of Muhammad, but rather for all people in all times. Otherwise why not be more explicit and state "those who believed" rather than "those who believe". These verses to my understanding were revealed in times of strife, when Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims (Sabeans) offered their support and aid to Muhammad and Muslims. These verses perhaps were an answer to the question on the minds of Muslims, who wished to know weather or not those aiding them would abide in Hell or Heaven. The verses answered the question.
MNI quoted: "It is common among the armchair scholars to assume that the initial writers of tafseer and the compilers of Hadith were idiots. They were not. They took Hadith as a tool to interpret the Qur'an. What they didn't do (like Mr.Tufail is doing here) is read a translation, interpret it in the most obtuse way, and go back and start rejecting traditions because they contradict your own interpretation of the Qur'an."
I don't think the interpretation is "obtuse" at all. The passages in the Quran seem to be quite self-explanatory. Hadiths have always been viewed with skepticism by all major Muslim scholars. And there do exist a great number of Hadith's which do put the credibility of the Hadith compilers in question (I can quote you some ridiculous Hadith's if you like). Non-believers often shove Hadith's in the face of Muslims to prove to them how irrational their religion is. When Muslims hold up the Qur'an and say - "look this isn't quite right" - they continue to tell "us" what "we" believe.
As far as the other Qur'anic verses you quoted are concerned, they should be taken in conjunction with other verses in the Qur'an including 2:62. Ultimately whatever you believe, if you are Muslim, the Quran is clear on one thing - Allah is the ultimate Judge - so making judgments here is a waste of time. Leave it to Allah to decide rather than making offensive statements, condemning others to Hell - unless of course you know Allah's mind better than He knows His own.
Achtung ;)
[This message has been edited by Achtung (edited June 09, 1999).]
For those who say that because these verses give hope to righteous non-Muslims, why believe in the messengership of Muhammad. The Qur'an should be understood in its entirety. In my opinion, these verses, should be read in accordance with others in the Qur'an, including:
*
"O mankind! The messenger hath come unto you with the Truth from your Lord. Therefor believe; (it is) better for you. But if ye disbelieve, still, lo! unto Allah belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth. Allah is ever Knower, Wise." (4:170)
"Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful." (7:157)
*
So it would be best, to guarantee that no fear shall befall upon you in the hereafter, to believe in the Prophet-hood of Muhammad, and to live your life in accordance with the teachings of the Qur'an - live a righteous life. 4:170, states, "believe [in Muhammad's Prophethood] it is better for you" and 7:157, those who believe in Muhammad "they are the successful." Belief in Muhammad's messengership is central to Islam and in fact an integral part of belief in Allah.
That being said we, as Muslims, we cannot (in my opinion) claim a monopoly on heavan (in accordance with 2:62 and 5:69). Although we understand that to live your life in the best way (4:170), we must profess claim in the Prophethood of Muhammad, we cannot claim that other groups will be guaranteed hell-fire. Such judgments are up to Allah, (in accordance with 22:17). We can't claim to know who will and who will not gain entrance into heaven. Allah is the ultimate Judge and He alone can make that decision.
Saying all that, I know opinion varies on the meaning of these verses.
Achtung ;)
Dear Achtung:
I really appricate your detailed answers and I am thankful to you that you took time to explain this to us but I am still not convinced by yourexplaination. Don't take me wrong and do not think that I am personally attacking because I am not.
I just wanted to make it clear that NO, it was not convincing to me, I do have different view of openion than you and as you said
[quote]
Saying all that, I know opinion varies on the meaning of these verses.
[/quote]
By differeing YOU or your detail answer, please do not lable me differing with the Quaran, that would be nice of you.
My confusion is still there that
If jews and christain would also go to Heaven then why do we need to believe in Prophet Muhammad (SAW)?, Please be noted that when I talk about the jews and christian, I menat the jews and christian who refused to believe in the Prophethood of Muhammed (SAW)
If all Kafirs and Mushriks would go to heave then why we need to believe in Allah? I don't think, I need to explain who is mushrik and who is Kafir, evey one knows that
If people from all the religion would go to heaven then why do we need to invite the people to accept Islam?
Thanks in advance for your understanding of difference of believes. Because difference of believes would not make me change my views about the respect of a knowledgable person.
Achtung:
About the Satanic Verses:
The episode is there in Tabari's edition of Ibn Ishaq's Sirah al rasulillah, and it is not present in Ibn Hisham's version. However, in the preface/intro, Ibn Hisham admits that incidents were omitted that seemed blasphemous or damning towards Islam and/or the prophet. And my guess is that this was the reason why the 'Satanic Verses' were not there in Ibn Hisham's version.
Why did Tabari narrate the Satanic Verses episode?
1. He could have lied and made it up because of some hidden agenda.
2. He got it from some sources and narrated it.
I doubt that 1. is true. As to the second, yes it's possible that Tabari's methods lacked rigor. That does not mean everything Tabari said is false. Achtung you haven't even read what Tabari wrote about 2:162. So I suggest you go and read the context of revelation for 2:162, which is Salman al farasi's story. There is nothing blasphemous about it, and it corroborates what Beidhawi said in his tafseer.
More coming in next post
You, Mr. Achtung seem to be stuck on 2:162 and the other verse that is identical to it. Like a broken record you keep quoting them. Why are the other verses that explicitly refer to jews and christians -namely 9:30, 5:19, 5:75-76, 4:150-151 - ignored by you? I have a hunch that your tactic is to write long posts, say alot and ignore this question. So don't mind if I keep reminding you of this. okay?
More in the next...
"Ok this makes a little more sense. However, the Qur'an is the primary source for Muslims (than the Hadith) and if we examine the verses in question (2:62 and 5:69 and 22:17)) in the Quranic text they are revealed in the present tense, not past. They state "those who believe ", not "those who believed ". The Qur'an is believed to be a book of guidance for all time, by Muslims, this verse does not seem to refer to those prior to the Prophethood of Muhammad, but rather for all people in all times. "
22:17 says that Allah will yufSila bainahum i.e. judge between them (i.e. mushrikeen, majoos, nasaara, etc. etc.). It does not have the same purport as 2:62 and 5:69, in case someone didn't see through your trick of lumping the three verses together.
2:62 and 5:69 are identical. Here's the arabic:
Inn alladheena aamanoo, walladheena haadoo, wa(al)naSaaraa wa(al)Sabi'een, man AAMANA bi(A)llah wa(al)youmil aakhir wa 'amila SaaliHan fa lahum ajruhum 'inda rabbihim wa la khawfun alaihim wa la hum yaHzanoon.
Verily those who believe, and those who (were) jews, and Christians and Sabians , who BELIEVED (notice the past) in Allah and the lastt day, and acted righteous, then for them there's reward from their upbringer, and on them there's no fear, nor shall they grieve.
The tense used is indeed past. 'aamana' instead of 'yu'minu'. I don't care how PickThall translates it, but it is clear to me (and probably to anyone who knows arabic) that 'aamana' is past tense.
Now Mr.Achtung, please address the other issues raised by verses 5:19, 5:75-76, 4:150-151 and 9:30. Do not write another long post ignoring these. I want to know what you think. Okay?
Second, read the context of revelation of 2:62 i.e. when the prophet met salman al faarasi and salman told his story to the prophet. And please don't comment unless you have done that, okay?
MNI
Brothers
Salam Masnoon.
Another proof from Quran. Chapter 3, Verses 84,85 and 86( Al Imran)
"84. Say (O Muhammad SAW): "We believe in Allâh and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibrâhim(Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob) and Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)] and what was given to Mûsa (Moses), 'Iesa (Jesus) and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (Allâh) we have submitted (in Islâm)."
And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the
losers].
How shall Allâh guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and after they bore witness that the Messenger (Muhammad
SAW) is true and after clear proofs had come unto them? And Allâh guides not the people who are Zâlimûn (polytheists and
wrong-doers). "
Will they still deny Allah's words...
Vassalam
Answer to MNI
You are referring 2:62. It talks about followers of prophets in their time or even after they passed away ( They were believing in oneness of Allah, and were truely following prophets of their time).
Let me clearify here something, once we say Islam and muslims, what do we mean by that.
All prophets from Adam AS to Prophet Muhammed SAW brought same religon i.e., Islam. It started from Adam AS and completed on our beloved prophet Muhammed SAW. Hence all prophets were muslims and as well their true followers at that time, and they will get reward from Allah SWT and eventually will enter into Jannah.
Now question arises will todays Jews, Christians, etc will go to jannah, Allah SWT has clearly mentioned in His Quran, about muslims of today (followers of Prophet Muhammed SAW,and non belivers ( So called followers of prophets before Prophet Muhammed SAW) as I have posted verses from Al Imran 84,85,and 86.
May Allah guide us All.
Note: I have very little knowledg of Islam, and I try to learn from you brothers, so if I have made any mistake in qouting Ayah of Quran, or Hadith, first I ask forgivness from Allah, and urge you to point it out so I can correct it.
Vassalam
Brother Abrar:
You are absolutely right. My whole thrust was to address apologists like Mr.Achtung who by their lack of knowledge, and eagerness to twist Islam to their own idea of fairness, come up with statements like Jews and Christians (of course of today!) are heaven bound.
Thank you for further clarifying this for a kaafir brother (i.e. me).
MNI
Jazakallah Br. MNI
I have more Ayahs of Quran to prove that todays non muslims, if they die on Kufr, will go to hell and will live there forever. But if they accept Islam before they die, and will die as Muslim, insha Allah they will enter into Jannah.
Vassalam
MNI wrote: "By referring to the fact that Tabari quoted the 'Satanic Verses' episode, you are discrediting everything Tabari did or said, without even reading it. Typical."
I simply asked if it's the same Tabari, I didn't discredit anything. Your assuming I did.
MNI wrote: "Why did Tabari narrate the Satanic Verses episode? 1. He could have lied and made it up because of some hidden agenda…I doubt that 1. is true."
Tabari's story is totally rejected by Muslim historians for many reasons. Ziauddin Sardar points out six which can easily convince any reader of the falsity of the hadith.
"1. The satanic verses story is either ignored or rejected as preposterous folklore by all the major classical historians, including ibn Ishaq, ibn Hisham, al-Suhalyli, ibn Kathir, al-Bayhaqi, Qadi Iyad, ibn Khuzayma, al-Razi, al-Qurtabi, al-Ayni and al-Shawkani.
2. Al-Tabari is considered uncritical because he was a chronicler who reported every event that was circulating during his time without critical evaluation.
3. It does not chronologically make sense. The verses which were revealed to abrogate the so-called satanic verses (22:52) were revealed in the first year of the hijra, that is eight to nine years after the satanic verses incident. This would mean the Prophet was 'admonished' six years after the event; that the offending verses, which undermined the very basis of the Qur'anic message and bear no relation whatsoever to any other passage or reference in it, were tolerated for nine years before they were abrogated.
4. When the satanic verses are placed in the body of verses in Surah al-Najam where they were supposed to be...the whole sense of the verses becomes meaningless and are clearly contradictory.
5. Again on purely rational grounds, the satanic verses were the antithesis of everything the Qur'an had said up to that particular event and continued to say after the incident. If there was even an iota of truth in the story, it would have caused a major scandal in the early history of Islam and the incident would have been reported in the extensive hadith literature.
6. Nothing in early Islamic history or the hadith literature is accepted without thorough criticism based on certain rules and principles. And thus the satanic verses story would have definitely been refuted." (Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies, Distorted Imagination, page 149)
MNI wrote: "That does not mean everything Tabari said is false."
I never said it was! I simply said we may want to take his Hadith's with a grain of salt. We should be skeptical.
I think if we should continue this discussion it should be done so in a separate thread.
Achtung
On the subject of 2:62 and 5:69 - your argument seems to be based on the assumption that Islam was the invention of Muhammad. This is fine, if you're an atheist or non-Muslim. However, Muslims believe that Islam has existed since the creation of man. The same message provided to Adam was provided to Moses and Jesus and Muhammad. That message was the message of Islam. Those who rejected Islam prior to Muhammad (i.e. the Jews and Christians) are no different than those who reject Islam now. Why would the Qur'an make an injunction stating that those who rejected the message (the message being Islam) prior to Muhammad's Prophethood have "nothing to fear" while those who rejected Muhammad's message (the same message - Islam) are banished to Hell. That would be unjust.
MNI wrote: "2:62 and 5:69 are identical."
Who cares if they're identical. Were they both revealed after Salman al Farsi told his alleged story? I guess that's a moot question since you believe the Qur'an is contrived by Muhammad.
MNI wrote: "The tense used is indeed past. 'aamana' instead of 'yu'minu'. I don't care how PickThall translates it, but it is clear to me (and probably to anyone who knows arabic) that 'aamana' is past tense."
And we should take your translation over the others. Because what? You are an Arab scholar who has spent his entire life translating the Qur'an? Because every Muslim has a copy of MNI's translation of the Glorious Qur'an? Here are three translations which use ** believe ** rather than ** believed ** .
*
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who ** believe ** in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
PICKTHAL: Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever ** believeth ** in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the f Christians, and the Sabians, whoever ** believes ** in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
*
As far as the Arabic is concerned, even if the verse reads "those who believed" (past tense) - from this we can not assume that by default "those who believe" (present tense) will go to hell.
MNI wrote: "Now Mr.Achtung, please address the other issues raised by verses 5:19, 5:75-76, 4:150-151 and 9:30. Do not write another long post ignoring these. I want to know what you think. Okay?"
You don't have to read the posts if you find them long. I'm not trying to impress you or anyone else. I did address these verses in the last post. You should read more carefully. The only verses referring directly to punishment in the hereafter are 4:150-151.
MNI wrote: "Second, read the context of revelation of 2:62 i.e. when the prophet met salman al faarasi and salman told his story to the prophet. And please don't comment unless you have done that, okay?"
I can comment on anything I want here Mr. MNI. I don't have access to any resources presently other than this computer (and even that is limited). I'll look into the Hadith when I arrive back home in September.
MNI wrote: "You are absolutely right. My whole thrust was to address apologists like Mr.Achtung who by their lack of knowledge, and eagerness to twist Islam to their own idea of fairness, come up with statements like Jews and Christians (of course of today!) are heaven bound."
Yes the Jews and Christians of the "past" according to "your twisted logic" and "lack of knowledge" are "heaven bound" because they have rejected the same message of Islam preached by Jesus, Moses and countless other Prophets of Islam. While the Jews and Christians of the present are bound to hell, because they've rejected that same message. Makes a lot of sense!
By the way, do you really have to be so confrontational?
Still struggling,
Achtung
I agree with msaqibj.
Nobody has answered "If Kafirs and mushriks will go to heaven then why we need to believe in Allah."
Allah is like our servant of mankind. If you pray him, he better obey you and reward you. He better give an idea to in-laws to leave the house, give a win in cricket game and do everything that is worth prayer or a goat once in a while.
Of course, even after death Allah better keep you in nice airconditioned rooms with pretty girls whose virginity is renewed from time to time. why not?
If allah is not going to all this, why bother to pray him five times a day.
I think msaqibj is right and I support his argument.
Achtung you keep arguing about minor points and ignore my main, primary question.
You have thus far ignored verses like:
5:75-76. "They disbelieve who say God is Christ son of Mary .... Whoever joins other Gods with God, God will forbid him
The garden (jannah) and the fire will be his abode."
Despite my repeated reminders, I might add. You sound more like an intellectually dishonest apologist rather than someone who's interested in having a discussion.SO NEXT TIME I WILL NOT EVEN READ YOUR POST IF YOU DO NOT ADDRESS THIS ISSUE.
You operate on the assumption that Qur'an is the word of Allah. That's fine with me. So your motivation is to interpret the Qur'an in synch with your own idea of what Allah should be doing and what he shouldn't be doing.
Yes I am an agnostic (not an atheist mind you). My interest here is purely academic.
'Satanic Verses' is a side-point here, and yes you were trying to discredit Tabari. It's another thing if you don't admit it. So Okay, Satanic Verses story is a fabrication. That point does not interest me here. So don't harp on it any more.
Translation of 2:62. No I am not a scholar, but even I can see a simple nuance of Arabic.
yu'min = present
aamana = past
YOu know it doesn't really take a scholar to know this. One of your major points was that this verse 2:62 exonerates non-Muslims from punishment BECAUSE it is in the present. (In fact you seemed quite proud to make that point.) I am saying that you are wrong. This verse does not contradict other verses of the Qur'an that promise fire and punishment for 'kaafiroon'.
Qur'an is very emphatic about the point that the Jews and Christians have NOT accepted the same message as Muslims. They are accused in the Qur'an of having strayed from the supposed message of Jesus, Moses, etc. And therefore the ahl-e-kitaab of today are labelled as kaafir ("They commit kufr who say Allah is Jesus, son of Mary"...etc. etc.), and that is why punishment is promised by them. And countless times, kaafiroon are condemned to fire and punishment by Allah. This is quite an elementary point that I understood when I was in 5th grade. Hope it sinks in some day.
Why am I so confrontational? Well let's say I have low tolerance for ppl who have their heads in the sand.
Btw, I don't do this for a living. I do this as kaar-e-khair. And no, I have nothing besides this computer either.
MNI