on languages

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

often we come across people advocating how the Islamic thing to do would be to adopt arabic as our national language. I remember there being a thread on this.

Was browsing through the Quran today and came across this:

ayat 030.021

And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are portents for men of knowledge.

I believe this makes the case more than anything of rejoicing in our diversity as one nation united by religion, and not language or culture. Following a specific culture or speaking a specific language does not make you a better Muslim.

often times the subtext of the advocacy for the rejection of our culture and language in favour of Arabian culture and language is conscious or unconscious racism. Those who believe cricket is bad, but camel racing is acceptable. Khuda hafiz is bad, Allah hafiz is good. Arabic is compulsory, native languages optional miss the point of most Islamic teachings in their doggedly literal interpretation of every single thing.

2

:jazak: brother ravage… sola anay darust farmaya aap nay..

3

thankus baradar-e-aziz chachoo, mashallah saal may ek baat theek kar leta huun.

4

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
thankus baradar-e-aziz chachoo, mashallah saal may ek baat theek kar leta huun.
[/QUOTE]
For once, we agree :p

5

smily in religion!!

oye is thread ko cafe na banao! :smash:

:lahol:

what you meant to say was :jazak: brother ravage ayein halva khayein.

:amamah:

6

right on ravage... im so glad someone brought this up..

ive always felt bad when my entire khandan says "Allah Hafiz" and i reply with "Khuda Hafiz"

7

Ofcourse every language is beautiful and according to the ayah you posted, it is clear that diversity has a place. However, it is common sense that learning Arabic is very important to have a better understanding of Quran and Hadith.

This does not at all mean that we abondon our own language.

8

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadzzz: *
right on ravage... im so glad someone brought this up..

ive always felt bad when my entire khandan says "Allah Hafiz" and i reply with "Khuda Hafiz"
[/QUOTE]

Allah HAfiz and Khuda HAfiz is a separate non-important issue.

9

as Islamabad said, culture is a separate thing, learning Arabic language to have a better understanding of Quran and Hadith is a separate issue....

similarly nothing wrong with khuda hafiz but if u refer to Allah with a name He loves (surely He wud love Allah more than Khuda) then its just a matter of seeking Allah's pleasure....

i dont think anyone wud ever argue on sports on what is better and what not....
it seems to exaggerated....

10

Re: on languages

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
often we come across people advocating how the Islamic thing to do would be to adopt arabic as our national language. I remember there being a thread on this.

Was browsing through the Quran today and came across this:

ayat 030.021

And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are portents for men of knowledge.

I believe this makes the case more than anything of rejoicing in our diversity as one nation united by religion, and not language or culture. Following a specific culture or speaking a specific language does not make you a better Muslim.

often times the subtext of the advocacy for the rejection of our culture and language in favour of Arabian culture and language is conscious or unconscious racism. Those who believe cricket is bad, but camel racing is acceptable. Khuda hafiz is bad, Allah hafiz is good. Arabic is compulsory, native languages optional miss the point of most Islamic teachings in their doggedly literal interpretation of every single thing.
[/QUOTE]

good post

11

Armughal

Minor issues first.

[quote]

i dont think anyone wud ever argue on sports on what is better and what not....
it seems to exaggerated....
[/QUOTE]

well, perhaps you havent come across those who criticise cricket as a waste of time, cultural fasacination (and culture! toba toba!) etc etc, and when asked about camel racing/other sports featuring in the ahadith, they say those were different sports because they were preparing you for battle. how in modern tank warfare, weilding a bat is any less effective than charging with a camel I dont know.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
as Islamabad said, culture is a separate thing, learning Arabic language to have a better understanding of Quran and Hadith is a separate issue....

similarly nothing wrong with khuda hafiz but if u refer to Allah with a name He loves (surely He wud love Allah more than Khuda) then its just a matter of seeking Allah's pleasure....

[/quote]

These two I have an issue with. Why do people constrain any aspect of Allah to a human feature like language? Before the Arabic language, which is relatively recent in human development, did Allah not have a language to talk in? Did people not have a preferred name to call him by? Heres something for you: try tracing the use of the word "Allah" before Islam. Your trail will run cold very early, since it is an Arabic word. Before them, the jews used to call Him Ilaha.

His asmaa' ul Husnaa are not constrained to language. Whether you call him al-rahman or The Beneficient, it does not matter, AFAIK.

Khuda, for all practical purposes, today, means Allah. It connotes the exact same meaning in my mind, regardless of whether it once meant landlord. Just like Allah means the One we believe in, and not a pre-Islamic god (Abd-Allah was a common name before Islam, and did not refer to Allah as we know Him).

The case for translated books is similar, but not as straightforward. Whereas Allah's names are divorced from context and interpretation, and thus can be cast into one's respective language without losing any meaning (and gaining meaning in the process) translations are often disputed as inaccurate/wrong. But if it is an accredited translation, then you are reading Quran as interpreted by a very proficient arabic speaker, and not yourself, fumbling along with the experience of a 2 year old when it comes to dealing with the Arabic language. Who is more likely to make errors?

12

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
.... However, it is common sense that learning Arabic is very important to have a better understanding of Quran and Hadith.....
[/QUOTE]

Typical logic of the blind followers.

Did you ever wonder about Araabs and their state of understanding Quran and Hadees? As a group they are the ones with least amount of knowledge.

Time to say Khuda Hafiz to this fallacy that Arabic is necessary for Quranic understanding. This language is dead for real learning. If one happens to waste time on it, his brain will sure die as well.

Long live brave people of Pakistan. Pak-army zindabaad.

13

But isnt reading the Quran and praying in Arabic supposed to ...well...unite Muslims?

14

:salam:

15

Ofcourse the prayer is in Arabic, the reward of reading Quran is in Arabic. This point will only be understood by those who keep their bias away. It is only when a person learns Arabic, a new dimension opens to him/her by Allah’s mercy. Arabs who do not follow Islam, it is not because they do know Arabic, but because anyone can be misguided. However, Arabic does facilitate a better understanding of Islam. The prayers, everything directly in the preferred language of Allah:swt:, and in the language we will speak in Jannah, and the sweetest language which our beloved Prophet :saw: spoke.

If anyone does not want to learn Arabic, he is the one losing. Nobody is forcing anyone to learn Arabic. If you learn it you yourself gain and benefit.

I am 100% sure, our “modern” Muslims would spend money, time and effort to learn a 2nd or a third language such as Spanish, or French. Yes everything about Islam or related to Islam is outdated for them.

Allah :swt: guides whom He wills.

16

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *

Typical logic of the blind followers.

Did you ever wonder about Araabs and their state of understanding Quran and Hadees? As a group they are the ones with least amount of knowledge.

Time to say Khuda Hafiz to this fallacy that Arabic is necessary for Quranic understanding. This language is dead for real learning. If one happens to waste time on it, his brain will sure die as well.

Long live brave people of Pakistan. Pak-army zindabaad.
[/QUOTE]

do your read salat in urdu?
and besides, we should say asalam o alykum when leaving too, that is the real sunnah although allah hafiz can be said too

17

.

18

You say your points would be understood by those not influenced by bias. You can see in my post, I am reasoning logically, regardless of whether or not I have bias. Perhaps you should answer those.

Allow me to ask you this: before arabic came into existence, (between the second last and last of our prophets), we agree that every single prophet and his followers were on Islam. Evidently, they did not know arabic or speak it. If arabic is so very essential to understanding and practicing Islam, why did they not speak it? Or teach it to their followers? Similarly, if it was the preferred language for humans, kindly tell me why hazrat Adam did not bring it with him and ensured that Allah’s language was kept alive in his servants? Surely if we will speak this language when we go up, we clearly would’ve spoken it when we came down?

I, however, may be wrong. One way to show me Im wrong is to substantiate your assertions with basis, preferably from the Quran, or the ahadith.

But.. and this is VERY important: Why confine divinity to a very temporally and spacially specific feature of humanity?

EDIT: IMO, speaking in arabic is as much Sunnah, as walking on sand is sunnah, assuming that hijaz land was sandy.

MQ

what unites us is our religion, and our practice of it. Principles, beliefs, behaviour. Not language, colour, origin, etc etc etc. Otherwise christian arabs and muslim arabs have more unity with each other, no?

19

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ravage: *
Allow me to ask you this: before arabic came into existence, (between the second last and last of our prophets), we agree that **every* single prophet and his followers were on Islam. Evidently, they did not know arabic or speak it. If arabic is so very essential to understanding and practicing Islam, why did they not speak it? Or teach it to their followers? Similarly, if it was the preferred language for humans, kindly tell me why hazrat Adam did not bring it with him and ensured that Allah's language was kept alive in his servants? Surely if we will speak this language when we go up, we clearly would've spoken it when we came down?
[/QUOTE]

All other prophets except prophet Muhammad (PBUH) were sent to specific societies. And each prophet brought a different message to their people and as far as I know they never contradicted each other. Islam as we know it was brought by prophet Muhammad (PBUH) for the whole of man kind for all times and for all people. The message was different from the previous messages and the audience was the whole globe.

So to respond to your query regarding why did the other prophet didn’t need to speak Arabic to understand Islam is simply because they spoke what their people spoke so they can communicate to their people. The scriptures that they brought were written in the language that was understood by them, so Arabic was irrelevant if even existed in those times.

Islam as we know it today is based on Quran. Quran is in Arabic and it is in a language that will never die and so far we are all witness to it. So if anyone wants to understand the true meaning of Quran must know Arabic. Not only that we need to learn about the history of Arabs from those days and the customs to be able to understand the events, Hadith and the tafsir of Quran.

Now why Arabic and not Hindi or Pushto is a whole new discussion and I don't have the answer for that. But one thing is for sure Arabic was chosen to be the language to be used for verbal communication from God to His creature.

20

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChaChoo: *

All other prophets except prophet Muhammad (PBUH) were sent to specific societies. And each prophet brought a different message to their people and as far as I know they never contradicted each other. Islam as we know it was brought by prophet Muhammad (PBUH) for the whole of man kind for all times and for all people. The message was different from the previous messages and the audience was the whole globe.

So to respond to your query regarding why did the other prophet didn’t need to speak Arabic to understand Islam is simply because they spoke what their people spoke so they can communicate to their people. The scriptures that they brought were written in the language that was understood by them, so Arabic was irrelevant if even existed in those times.

[/quote]

and thus my contention. regardless of the modicum of the message, it remains the same. we do not necessarily need to fixate on the medium, if the message can be cast accurately into another one. the importance of the language is only specific to the understanding of the message.

[quote]

Islam as we know it today is based on Quran. Quran is in Arabic and it is in a language that will never die and so far we are all witness to it. So if anyone wants to understand the true meaning of Quran must know Arabic. Not only that we need to learn about the history of Arabs from those days and the customs to be able to understand the events, Hadith and the tafsir of Quran.

[/quote]

not really. I honestly believe that a complex, very alien (for us) language like arabic requires a decade to be learnt adeptly enough to even begin commenting on the Quran for ourselves. I've lived in the Gulf for 17 years, and my arabic is very limited indeed. When I read the Quran in arabic I have a very vague idea indeed of whats going on.

On the other hand, take an accredited translation. This person is either an arab by origin or someone with a very good grasp of it. His likelihood of making a mistake in translation is far, far, far, less than if you went and took a six month course.

[quote]

Now why Arabic and not Hindi or Pushto is a whole new discussion and I don't have the answer for that. But one thing is for sure Arabic was chosen to be the language to be used for verbal communication from God to His creature.
[/QUOTE]

correction. it was chosen to be a language for communication from God to His creature.

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