Oklahoma Bombings 9 years on!

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
41

I think one of the problems in defining this debate between American terrorists and "Islamic" ones is that in America most people don't know what exactly the domestic terrorists believe or what they are fighting for. Because of that it's easier to just write them off as nuts whenever they come along.

But the Islamic nuts tend to be more closely aligned in their beliefs and goals. For that reason it's easy to lump them all together and see them as one big scary mass. For the most part that's right. The Islamic terrorists articulate themselves better so people know why they should be scared. American ones are just rambling fools, no two will tell you the same thing (other than in the broadest terms: corrupt govt, kill non-whiteys, etc). That's not very intimidating.

42

i think that is where the cultural distance comes into play. whereas you find the extremist islamic groups as articulate, many of us find them as rambling loons. Those who did not have the benefit in muslim countries of getting the right education, the right exposure and all may think they are making sense. and its not that they are closely aligned, they have found an outside foe, but if you look at the history of such groups, they have immense divides among themsleves, and have had wars with each other ..groups like sipah e sahab and tehrik e jafaria in pak come to mind.

At the same time when i look at the influene of extremists in US, it troubles me, because whereas they may not be physically hurting innocent ppl, they are spreading the type of poison in the minds of the average joes that it is troubling. whether its ppl like buchanan, pat robertson or what nots. I know that these guys are different than the militia nuts or the klan, neonazi types. these groups that i mentioned have survived because they are not nuts.

Anyways, no one needs to be making an excuse for idiots no matter which group they belong to. they are all threats to people at different scales and need to be dealt with appropriately. dismantling of all extremist groups worldwide will be great

43

The KKK is a collection of hate mongering idiots but the damage they do to innocent satin sheets and/or burning of a few crosses is a far cry from the type of jihad we see emanating from Muslim terrorists. Some of the tree huggers and bunny lovers more closely equate with the violence prone Muslim terrorists but, thus far, have confined their violent tendencies to property destruction rather than killing and murder.

You get a nut like the unibomber spreading terror but he was not part of any group except for the one he created in his own deranged mind. The right wing militias certainly talk the talk but haven't (thankfully) decided to walk the walk. It's still very unclear whether McVeigh was representative of some ideologically inclined group when he did the OKC bombing or whether it was just a few friends looking for something to do in their own private retribution against Waco.

We just don't have people in leadership positions of groups issuing orders to kill other people based upon their race, ethnicity, nationailty, or religion and/or we just don't have idiot followers taking any such exhortations to heart. If we did have such people, you would not find the overwhelming majority of the populace sitting back in silence tacitly permitting them to carry on the campaign of murder nor would you find street parties celebrating their victories.

Ours is a country that sent federal troops to universities to see to it that a black man could attend. Does anyone seriously think we wouldn't do at least as much to stop some right wing terrorist group from slaughtering a bunch of people in a black community? Does anyone seriously think Americans would consider changing our policy of equal opportunity because, after careful consideration, we determined that it was that policy that was the root cause of the terrorist action?

You just can't compare the culture of the Muslim terrorist and the Muslim populace in which they are created and flourish with the wanna-be or actual domestic US terrorist and the populace in which they are created.

44

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by spoon: *
I think one of the problems in defining this debate between American terrorists and "Islamic" ones is that in America most people don't know what exactly the domestic terrorists believe or what they are fighting for.

[/QUOTE]

You don't what the various militia groups that have some 250,000 members and sympathisers believe in? Do they not call for the violent overthrow of the United States governemnt? Why are they armed to the teeth, like only terrorists would be?

45

Nothing changes

The right wing amerikkkans are in denial yet again, they are dismissing the oklahoma bombing as a one off, isolated case yet again. Whereas muslims the world over are blamed wholesale for any bombings that take place in NEw york.

You had the oklahoma bombing by an Amerikkkan Gulf War veteran and ironically the next day 6 years later in 1998 you had the Columbine high school shoot out by the trench coat mafia!

Are you going dismiss that also as an isolated incident.

If you think a nation such as the US of A built on violence commits murder and terrorism worldwide daily, and still deny the facts than you have no hope.

Amerikka financed saddam and they financed bin ladin Amerikka armed them to the teeth with any weapons they desire something your own governments admits, you create terrorism by your own hands why don`t you take the blindfolds off and see the reality!

46

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
**Nothing changes

The right wing amerikkkans are in denial yet again, they are dismissing the oklahoma bombing as a one off, isolated case yet again.**
[/QUOTE]

There are dozens, if not hundreds of US militia groups, with 250,000 members and sympathisers. These groups are armed to the teeth, like any terrorist group the world over - heck they even make cyanide bombs, when they are not calling for the violent overthrow of the US government. But these terrorists have never been disarmed...

47

When they start to become homicide bombers they will be taken care of. Until they do there are too many terrorists killing innocents around the world to worry about them.

48

Yes i agree the AMerikkan terrorists who kill civillans daily are the biggest threat to the world and they should be taken care of.

Hopefully they will get a bloody nose in iraq and leave in disgrace and think twice about invading other countries!

As for Amerikkkan terrorists in the states there must be hundreds of Timothy Mcvieghs in the making for an amerikkkan Gulf War veteran to bomb and kill hundreds of his own people is something extradoniary how more patriotic can you get than a War Veteran.

these amerikkan right wingers continue to live with blindfolds on and cannot see the root cause of all these problems is thier own Governments Policies!

49

Originally posted by myvoice: *
**The KKK is a collection of hate mongering idiots but the damage they do to innocent satin sheets and/or burning of a few crosses is a far cry from the type of jihad we see emanating from Muslim terrorists. *

historically they did create a lot of damage, they have been contained now for the larger part but the terror they spread was real.

*We just don't have people in leadership positions of groups issuing orders to kill other people based upon their race, ethnicity, nationailty, or religion and/or we just don't have idiot followers taking any such exhortations to heart. *

But we did, Klan's impact in past is known to all

** If we did have such people, you would not find the overwhelming majority of the populace sitting back in silence tacitly permitting them to carry on the campaign of murder nor would you find street parties celebrating their victories. **

In past however, there were people who let let Klan get away with it, and their lynchings of innocent ppl were akin to street parties.

dont forget that IRA terrorists get most of their funding from US, from average joe citizens..

*You just can't compare the culture of the Muslim terrorist and the Muslim populace in which they are created and flourish with the wanna-be or actual domestic US terrorist and the populace in which they are created. *

agreed, the circumstances of a klan member in the south and a an extremist who grew up in a refugee camp are completely different.

Additionally, these extremist groups operate beyond borders so they are not confined to one country and thus not completely under one country's control to contain them. There is a US government that controls all that takes place in its border, what is outside its borders is a diff issue.

However, as different as they are, the point here is that people can be used, people can be brainwashed, and these people need to be controlled, anywhere and everywhere. because extremists are hurting someone somehow, whether it is in large attacks or hateful individual events targetting innocent people.

50

Fraudia:
The KKK is "under control" today not because the government or the people capitulated to their agenda or remained silent in the face of their challenge to law and order. They are controlled because society rejected their message and law enforcement put them behind bars. People, both white and black, did not cower silently in their homes fearing the next attack. They took to the streets promoting the message of racial equality that so infuriated the Klan. It was the KKK that was forced to change not our government's policies.

Maybe now that the Muslim, fanatic, terrorists are killing their own with such impunity and vigor, maybe the citizenry will become a little more demanding and pro-active to take steps that will force the terrorist to change or exterminate them.

51

why arent KKK called christian terrorists?

52

If any of you guys are interested in getting a better understanding of the full spectrum of terrorism in America I’d highly recommend this book: Understanding Terrorism in America: From the Klan to Al Qaeda by Christopher Hewitt. It’s a really good book if you just want to know the basics in all areas, but it’s still quite detailed.. more an analytical book than a rambling narrative but very readable. Quite a few schools use it as a text on the subject of domestic terror from what I hear. [not at all implying you guys need it :wink: ]

I’ll try to say something useful later.

53

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *
Fraudia:
The KKK is "under control" today not because the government or the people capitulated to their agenda or remained silent in the face of their challenge to law and order. They are controlled because society rejected their message and law enforcement put them behind bars. People, both white and black, did not cower silently in their homes fearing the next attack. They took to the streets promoting the message of racial equality that so infuriated the Klan. It was the KKK that was forced to change not our government's policies.

Maybe now that the Muslim, fanatic, terrorists are killing their own with such impunity and vigor, maybe the citizenry will become a little more demanding and pro-active to take steps that will force the terrorist to change or exterminate them.
[/QUOTE]

My I suggest you research the history of the Klan and the efforts by governments to stop their activities aside from dressing up like idiots and saying even more idiotic stuff.

society was not pleased with them anyways, and many did reject their message, but until the authorities started containing these clowns, many people did cower silently in their homes.

There have been plenty of protests against domestic extremists in pakistan, of exctremisst that used religion, or ethnicity as a basis of their campaigns of terror.

These are international extremist groups we are talking about, the responsibility is not of one country or one group of people to stop them.

I could say that I should condemn these extremists' attacks as much as catholics at large and Irish-americans in specific should have done for IRA..but that would mean I would be actually funding these extremists..right

54

Fraudia:
I know what the clan did and the terror they spread. I really don't need to research it. The points I'm making relate to how our society dealt with this group that practiced terrorism before we really even defined that word. It is true that confronting international terrorism brings more challenges to the table than confronting domestic terrorism. But, international terrorists live and eat somewhere don't they? Unless he's emulating Saddam and living in a hole in the ground, Osama is bedding down for the night somewhere and that somewhere is obviously amongst a group of people that support and sympathize with his cause and/or amongst a group of people who remain silent as to his whereabouts because they are cowering in fear.

If there is a silver lining to the horrible cloud of these Muslim terrorist whackos killing other Muslims indiscriminantly, it will be that people everywhere (regardless of religion or nationality) will tire of the murder and killing and terror and leave no safe haven for the wackos.

You're right that the responsibility for stopping the terrorists does not rest with one country or one group of people. But, what is required is that ALL people reject and condemn the terrorist and ALL people to make sure their governments reject and condemn them too. There is no room for weak links here.

55

Originally posted by myvoice: *
**Fraudia:
I know what the clan did and the terror they spread. I really don't need to research it. The points I'm making relate to how our society dealt with this group that practiced terrorism before we really even defined that word. *

right then, so until the society finally dealt with them (and i feel it needs to deal with them a little bit more) these guys did whatthey did right. It took people some..or quite a bit of time (depending on whose perspective you look at it from) to finally have these guys go underground for the most part.

Other such things take time too, and it was nto people who did it of theirown free will, they were supported by the government of the country that these klan ppl were residing in to make racism illegal, and enforced it, although the enforcement can still be improved.

Contrast that to these middle eastern extremist groups, and you would find that these groups did not impact the local populations so it was an apathetic "not my problem" approach, the same approach btw which majority of white Americans had towards KKK, because if it did not impact them, it was not their problem.

*It is true that confronting international terrorism brings more challenges to the table than confronting domestic terrorism. But, international terrorists live and eat somewhere don't they? *

Sure they do, but I bet that except for a statistically insignificant minority, no on else in that country would know where these people are, what do you suggest, everyone starts spying on everyone else?

*Osama is bedding down for the night somewhere and that somewhere is obviously amongst a group of people that support and sympathize with his cause and/or amongst a group of people who remain silent as to his whereabouts because they are cowering in fear. *

but the majority..almost everyone in that country...dont know the guy's whereabouts, niether are they hiding him, nor are they cowering in fear, they just dont know..otherwise he would be caught by now. equating normal everyday people with his supporters and pals is incorrect.

*You're right that the responsibility for stopping the terrorists does not rest with one country or one group of people. But, what is required is that ALL people reject and condemn the terrorist and ALL people to make sure their governments reject and condemn them too. There is no room for weak links here. *

Indeed, and ALL people need to be educated/informed about the whole deal, it is easy for you and I to say this is what it is, and form an opinion but for people who dont know jack, have not been told jack, would look at these guys as Robin Hood of sorts. Now of course when we are talking about information and education it has to be balanced and paint a true picture otherwise it would only be construed as propoganda and rejected.

56

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by lussi: *
why arent KKK called christian terrorists?
[/QUOTE]

Good question.

It seems that American's are very sensitive and indeed defensive when reminded of home grown terrorists in their midst?

57

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *

Good question.

It seems that American's are very sensitive and indeed defensive when reminded of home grown terrorists in their midst?
[/QUOTE]

furthermore, what abt fanatics who bomb abortion clinics? What instigates them? the duplicity is glaring....

58

Originally posted by lussi:
why arent KKK called christian terrorists?

Because according to Bush's intellect, they use the Bible as their defence, therefore it is not religiously fuelled.

Similar to when Bush stated thet most of Americas imports come from abroad????????????????

59

:bukbuk: is george bush as dumb as reagan !

60

AK47

Bush wins hands down. Here's more

Take a look, you just might see it as Bush would say?

Bush:
Mis-pronounced a Japanese name in a speech to the Japanese Diet, and his use of the word "devaluation" when he meant to say "deflation".

When visiting the DMZ in South Korea and peering through the binoculars into North Korea, Mr. Bush exclaimed, "Mr. Kim, tear down this wall."

In China, the President went on national television to advocate tolerance for the practice of religion in China, and declared, "My prayer is that Chairman Mao sees the light."

And Bush told the Japanese Prime Minister, "Hey Koi-Boy, I hear you like karaoke. Personally, I can't stand raw fish."

Called a reporter a "major league a - - - - - -," mispronouncing the word "subliminal".

"It's not the way American is all about."

"Desert Storm. We sold a lot of tickets" and

"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm dictator."

"One of the common denominators I have found is that expectations rise above that which is expected."

"I don't care what the polls say. I don't. I'm doing what I think what's wrong."

Q: When you're talking about politics, what do you and [your father] talk about?
Bush: Pussy.
- To David Fink of the Hartford Courant, at the 1988 Republican Convention

"I know how hard it is to put food on your family."

"What's not fine is, rarely is the question asked, are, is our children learning?"

King: Can a president do something about [racial profiling]? There was a movement that Bill Clinton can sign an executive order dealing with it. To your knowledge, can you?
Bush: I don't know about that, but yes, I think the President can call upon racial reconciliation in America.

Thomas: Well, you're a secular official
Bush: I agree. I am a secular official.
Thomas: -- and not a missionary.
Bush: Sir, on the air strikes in Iraq, the Pentagon is now saying that most of the bombs used in those strikes missed their targets.

"Will the highways on the Internet become more few?"

"This is an impressive crowd, the haves and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite. I call you my base."

"Well, we all make mistakes. I've been known to mangle a sy-lab-ble or two, you know. But you know what I mean. I think credibility is important."

"HE CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. HE CAN'T TAKE THE HIGH HORSE AND THEN CLAIM THE LOW ROAD."

"I HAVE MADE GOOD JUDGMENTS IN THE PAST. I HAVE MADE GOOD JUDGMENTS IN THE FUTURE."

"IT ISN'T POLLUTION THAT'S HARMING THE ENVIRONMENT. IT'S THE IMPURITIES IN OUR AIR AND WATER THAT ARE DOING IT."

"WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THE BEST EDUCATED AMERICAN PEOPLE IN THE WORLD."

"FOR NASA, SPACE IS STILL A HIGH PRIORITY."

"GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE; GUNS ARE DESIGNED AND MANUFACTURED FOR THE PURPOSE OF ENABLING PEOPLE TO USE THE GUNS TO KILL PEOPLE."

"I HAVE OPINIONS OF MY OWN -- STRONG OPINIONS --BUT I DON'T ALWAYS AGREE WITH THEM."

"I KNOW THE HUMAN BEING AND FISH CAN COEXIST PEACEFULLY."

"I THINK WE OUGHT TO RAISE THE AGE AT WHICH JUVENILES CAN HAVE A GUN."

"WE ARE READY FOR ANY UNFORESEEN EVENT THAT MAY OR MAY NOT OCCUR."

"IT'S CLEARLY A BUDGET. IT'S GOT A LOT OF NUMBERS IN IT."

"WHAT I AM AGAINST IS QUOTAS. I AM AGAINST HARD QUOTAS, QUOTAS THEY BASICALLY DELINEATE BASED UPON WHATEVER. HOWEVER THEY DELINEATE, QUOTAS, I THINK VULCANIZE SOCIETY. SO I DON'T KNOW HOW THAT FITS INTO WHAT EVERYBODY
ELSE IS SAYING, THEIR RELATIVE POSITIONS, BUT THAT'S MY POSITION."

"THE MOST IMPORTANT JOB IS NOT TO BE GOVERNOR, OR FIRST LADY IN MY CASE."

Sorry for the caps!!!!!!!!

"Do you have blacks, too?"

  • Bush to Brazilian President Fernando Henrique Cardoso as reported in Der Spiegel. Condoleeza Rice interceded explaining that Brazil has the greatest number of black citizens of any nation outside of Africa.