Of political parties, monarchy, dictatorship!

We continue to exchange heat over political parties, dictatorships, monarchy and accuse each other (guppies) of supporting a crook/corrupt/dictator and what not.

We all know that we are all sincere to Pakistan and love to see it in good direction on all fronts (not just “economic”).

People who support “dictatorships” see the progress, development achieved under Musharraf regime and show corruption of 70s (nationalisation) and 90s (circus of BB and NS govts) as ‘failure of democratic setup in Pakistan’.

People who support/desire “democracy” see the progresses as short-lived, exaggerated, not as result of “institutionalised policies”, oppressive etc.

We all have our own “observations/analysis” to believe in what we do so lets not (for the purpose of this thread) pull each other’s legs.

What I would like to know from both sides is:

Q1. What do you support?
a. Kind-of-Democracy
b. Army-Controlled-Democracy
c. Complete Army Control?

I am sure there can be other options as well but this is what we have had in Pakistan so far, so lets stick with these options so far unless majority thinks these are incorrect or need be modified.

Q2. Why do you support ? How is it good in long term for the country?

Lets see how people respond (if at all :D) to these questions. Please stick to the topic and refrain from leg-pulling.

{EDIT}

Lets begin. (I will answer shortly so please don’t ask for my answers just yet).

Re: Of political parties, monarchy, dictatorship!

How can a country have so-called true democracy when the political parties themselves do not follow a democratic process?

Until the above problem is resolved, the Great President Musharaf should remain the man with the real power, to make sure Pakistan stays on the right path for development in all sectors - not back to the loot maar of pre 1999 era.

God Bless Pakistan. :jhanda:

Re: Of political parties, monarchy, dictatorship!

^ Aalsi, please read the 1st post, you need to answer the questions or ship out. Thanks.

Re: Of political parties, monarchy, dictatorship!

how about a poll?

Re: Of political parties, monarchy, dictatorship!

I am not much interested in knowing about "majority" or "minority" at this point. I am more interested in knowing answers to my questions (esp number 2). Thanks.

Re: Of political parties, monarchy, dictatorship!

Tough choices there :D
I'd still pick a.

[quote]
Q2. Why do you support ? How is it good in long term for the country?
[/quote]

By supporting sorta-democracy we will have evolution of governance, accountability and filter out greedy politicians who don't deliver.

Patch-fix, adhocism may work wonders in short term but since most of decisions/policies are not "institutionalised" they will not give anything in long-term. Evolving of an institution usually strengthens your foundations while make-shift work remains that kind no matter how long it is dragged for.

Re: Of political parties, monarchy, dictatorship!

a.

Democracy does not assume that people make perfect decisions. a good democratic system decentralizes power and limits the power at the disposal of corrupt politicians and incentivizes politicians to keep their constituents happy (thereby giving some power to the people, however limited). Also there is nothing that keeps a democratic system from mandating that political parties hold elections of their own, like we see in UK and US, however truth is that people like NS and BB would still be the political leaders then too. Feudals may rule with coercion in many places, but are still leaders and probably have the allegiance of those whom they rule over, and would still be elected without the coercion. Yes, people should know better but you cant impose your own worldview onto others, it is criminal to assume you should have more say than you deserve, you usurp the rights of others. Any "managed" democracy where "competant" leaders are imposed onto people against their will is elitist and a robbery of a basic right everyone should have: the ability to decide who rules over them.

The ideal system for me would be

  1. Federalist - give provinces (and even districts and cities) maximal autonomy in terms of laws and resources let the center only manage foreign affairs, emergencies etc. This way even if you have religious zealots elected in NWFP who want to enact a particular brand of Islamic law, godless secularists in Karachi can butt out of it and be content. The only right a province shouldnt automatically have without needing the consent of other provinces is on things like succession. But Balochistan should be able to price its natural gas however it wants, Punjab should be able to set food prices according to its needs etc etc. Most laws should be provincial matters, except for basic ones such as what consitutes murder, what basic rights all citizens have etc. Im fine with some part of karachi legalizing alcohol distribution just as I am fine with some part of nwfp criminalizing co-ed schools (while still providing the federally enshrined right of access to any desired level of education)

  2. Nazim / MPA system needs to be integrated. There is too much beureucracy in the mix and both Nazims and MPAs get to blame each other. Keep the nazim system though, and empower them more.

  3. Army needs to get the hell out of politics. It should be completely subservient to the civilian establishment. If the civilian ruler sneezes army chief should come running with his hankie.

  4. The whole president/prime minister dynamic needs to be eliminated. Have direct elections for president like antiobl suggested in another thread.

  5. Anyone seeking an elected office with a party affiliation must have been nominated through direct or indirect elections of party members (direct in the case of higher offices)

  6. "Floor Crossing" on any specific legislative issue should be political representative's right.

Any assumption that from a good system we will get good leaders in the short term or even the long term is missing the point. Nothing guarantees good governance. But that is like saying even if the government provides you with water you might still die. Right, but water is a basic necessity, as is political representation and accountability.

Re: Of political parties, monarchy, dictatorship!

I'd say

Q1: A

Simply because it gives the system a chance to work. Taking babysteps and self-correction, the nation will eventually mature its own democratic system. No one (Musharraf) can ensure a "sure democracy" by his supervision because his democracy may not be the democracy of the majority of people.

Let the democracy work. Even let it fail to some point and then learn and pick up the pieces and work on it again. Army should NOT interfere in civil affairs, unlike the past where the politicians would meet the Generals and Generals would come running to enforce law. That should not happen again.

Unless the system is given time to evolve and cleanse itself of unfit democratic elements, nothing is likely to improve. Enforcement only works against democracy.

** Q2:** If i was to vote, i'd probably vote PPP. Because they're the biggest party in Pakistan and their support stems from all 4 provinces. They're not a party of a specific region. However, i am not in the favor of Zardari being the forerunner in any aspect. I would gladly support Amin Fahim's bid for PM because he has experience. Not only that, but this will successfully evolve the party as well as country because it will break the myth of "family politics".

PPP is known to be the voice of poor, middle-class, and some elites. It has always been that way.

Re: Of political parties, monarchy, dictatorship!

even if the reality is that so far the ratio of amount of talking zardari is doing for his party:amount of talking amin fahim is doing is astronomical?

Re: Of political parties, monarchy, dictatorship!

^ PCG can you please answer Qs as well? Thanks.

Of course ideal is a "democracy" but then since not everything is as shining as sun we will have to take the sour gulp of what we have. Use army only to "support" the setup as well as enforce "check and balance" in the system not as "The Check" only. For that my answer would be "a". Let the process improve. We need to keep institutions like judiciary, NAB function interference free.

[quote]
Q2. Why do you support ? How is it good in long term for the country?
[/quote]

I support "a" because I believe it will strengthen the foundations of democracy. If we keep supporting an army rule every now and then we will go no where. We have to get the democratic system working. Democracy is not just "elections" but includes things like accountability of govt officials, ministers etc.

What we have now is between "a" and "b". We need to support it and push army influence out using the current setup.

Re: Of political parties, monarchy, dictatorship!

i would love to see a democratic process that you have in the western world where there is alarge element of civilisisation when they vote etc. if that can be achieved - accountable politicians whose power rests with the people then i am all for it.
in this present climate i do believe that some army interventiion in politics is necessary but i dont believe they should control the political process and start supporting one group against another. they should be their to make sure politicians donot get outof hand and that to applylaw andorder.

i dont hve any objections with complete armycontrol too IF the army leader does not start attacking his checksand balances. to have complete control centred in the hands of one leader is suicide. pakistan isalargecountry and for the power to be centralised i believeit would cause resentment.

if there is justice, fairness, equality before the law in anyof those political systems then i am alll for it. i would rather support agood dictator than a bad democrat.

for shhort term period the mush government was good for pakistan as a whole but now quite frankly he is past his sell-by date. he has shown political bias and favouritis within political groups - a fair person would not have done that. the pakistan army asa whole has this way of propping people up to suit their own interests - it should let politics take its own natural course andlet the people decide who they want too.

in the final 5 years of zia ul haq's martial regime crime apparently increased quite alot - i have read that in a book somewhere - the same problem is now happening with musharaf.

Re: Of political parties, monarchy, dictatorship!

Democracy. But with very strong anti-corruption body under army and with constitutional backing, independent of politicians, that can act against corrupt politicians as well as corrupt government servants, on their own or because of any tip or complain from anywhere.

[quote]
Q2. Why do you support ?
[/quote]

I support such system because I believe that Pakistan is 'tribal and feudal society' where corrupt politicians are too strong and civil bureaucracy cannot handle them, so they join them. These corrupt people can only be controlled by a body stronger than them, and that is army.

[quote]
How is it good in long term for the country?
[/quote]

Result of such system would be honest politician getting into power, as corrupt would not like to get into politics with strong anti-corruption body (well, if they would come than it would be on their own risk). This would bring good governance and fast development in the country where hard work, honesty, and merit would prosper.

Eventually, as country would progress and would become richer, masses would get educated and would have access to many venues of employment, hold of feudal and tribal mentality in Pakistan would get replaced with independent thinking educated population appreciating merit, hard work and honesty.

Re: Of political parties, monarchy, dictatorship!

People who have knowlege about existing laws can correct me, but from what I know people cannot challenge a minister in court when he is in government. If public cannot hold minister accountable for their actions, how can they get what they were promised during elections?

[quote]
in this present climate i do believe that some army interventiion in politics is necessary but i dont believe they should control the political process and start supporting one group against another. they should be their to make sure politicians donot get outof hand and that to applylaw andorder.
[/quote]

Army presence should only be required when there is turmoil in the country, their job is to defend "borders". "Police" is required to defend country from inside (enforce law, ensure security etc).

We should have some sort of joint organization where heads of powerful institutions like police, army, navy, airforce, parliament, senate, judiciary should be members. If there is a govt action which is objectionable should be discussed there, they can force PM to change the decision or something along those lines to ensure that everyone is on same page.

[quote]
i dont hve any objections with complete armycontrol **too IF the army leader does not start attacking his **checksand balances. to have complete control centred in the hands of one leader is suicide. pakistan isalargecountry and for the power to be centralised i believeit would cause resentment.
[/quote]

This is sort of against human nature. Just like Nawaz Sharif tried to gather all powers in his chair and attacked SC as if he was the king shows once you have power then you disregard everything. Take recent CJ saga where CJ was ousted because he disagreed with Musharraf. So if army has complete control then it is highly unlikely that the person incharge will care about checks and balances.

[quote]
if there is justice, fairness, equality before the law in anyof those political systems then i am alll for it. i would rather support agood dictator than a bad democrat.
[/quote]

The biggest risk in supporting a "good dictator" is that you are killing long-term evolution of nation, system. When the "good dictator" dies/unseated what do you get? Chaos.

[quote]
for shhort term period the mush government was good for pakistan as a whole but now quite frankly he is past his sell-by date. he has shown political bias and favouritis within political groups - a fair person would not have done that. the pakistan army asa whole has this way of propping people up to suit their own interests - it should let politics take its own natural course andlet the people decide who they want too.
[/quote]

Thats exactly what happens when you support a "good dictator". He stays good for sometime, but then he gets surrounded by idiots, corrupts, crooks and his vision gets distorted and he is then assured that nothing can stop him, he is doing all the decision perfectly etc.

[quote]
in the final 5 years of zia ul haq's martial regime crime apparently increased quite alot - i have read that in a book somewhere - the same problem is now happening with musharaf.
[/quote]

Zia's regime saw rise of MQM because he wanted to break JI's strength. He let Afghan refugees let go any place in the country instead of containing them in a place. Afghans may not have been all criminal by themselves but circumstantial ones probably. We all got flooded by arms, drugs and what not.

Re: Of political parties, monarchy, dictatorship!

If army is being involved in accountability of civilians then civilians should also be involved in army's accountability.

[quote]
I support such system because I believe that Pakistan is 'tribal and feudal society' where corrupt politicians are too strong and civil bureaucracy cannot handle them, so they join them. These corrupt people can only be controlled by a body stronger than them, and that is army.
[/quote]

You are supporting army in the mix (equation) because they have been the might so far. Why can't we make judiciary and police free so they free up army from leaving border issues (whether we currently have or not is a different issue). If judiciary is found to be "corrupt" then the top judiciary should be held accountable by parliament/senate (not just "SJC").

Apparently you support democratic system as well, that is good to know.

Now what can we, the citizens, do to ensure that the current set of loots, corrupts (civilian/army/beauracratic etc) put such a system in place?