Of mod-Muslims...

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *

Soviet Union had a horrible Navy and that's precisely why they lost. Nazi Germany suffered the same fate because their navy was almost zilch.

That environment leads to stoppage of Business and Industrial activity and the nation comes to grinding halt. Karachi used to be the hub of world travel, and now it is has gone to goons, thugs, and petty criminals.

[/QUOTE]

your first statment is so pathetic that i cant believe any one could say that..there have been books upon books detailing the reasons behind the fall of soviet union, and here we have a cyber scholar who just sums it up in one line. i knew you were dumb, but even i m surprised now.

any how, the second part of your statement about khi going to goons and thugs is thanks to our secular terrorists. they had no ties to mullah so called tullah and were only doing it for secular nationalistic kafir reasons. so better understand the history before you just put all terrorists in the category of "mullah tullah"

22

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *

Soviet Union had a horrible Navy and that's precisely why they lost. Nazi Germany suffered the same fate because their navy was almost zilch.
[/QUOTE]

LOL!!! OMG you're actually making me laugh!!!!!

The Soviet Union had one of the world's most powerful navies all the way up to its collapse. In fact, by 1982 there was great concern within NATO that Soviet naval power was greater than what NATO possessed.

They had an immensely powerful submarine force, as well as a surface navy that was trained for and capable of launching amphibious assaults anywhere in Northern Europe. Their Typhoon-class submarines were the largest and most powerful submarines of the 80s, with each individual sub carrying more than enough firepower to decimate the population of the USA.

The defeat of the Soviet Union had nothing to do with its navy - and everything to do with its economy. It could not bear the economic (and political) cost of the defeat the Afghan Mujahideen inflicted on it in the 1980s, and the cost of the arms race with the USA, being torpedoed by unrealistic communist economic policies. Gorbachov recognised that continuing down the Soviet path would bring untold suffering to its people and hence the Union dissolved.

The lesson to be learnt is that an Islamic state must either be an economic powerhouse with the economic development and resources to sustain an arms race, or it must wither and die like the Soviet Union did.

Similarly, Nazy Germany did not lack for naval power - by 1942, the Nazi navy had an economic stranglehold around Britain through its vast submarine fleet and Britain was verging on collapse. It was only the capture of a Nazi signal encoding machine (the Enigma machine) by the british Royal navy that allowed the Allied forces to break the blockade.

What defeated nazi germany was the fact that they lacked the economic resources to fight the war. They could not produce enough war material to fight both against the Soviets in the East and the Allies in the West.

Again, the lesson to be learnt is that an Islamic state must have sufficient economic power to be able to support its military needs

Your Pakistan Navy argument is deeply flawed. Even before Pakistan's Islamicisation drive began, the navy had suffered catastrophic defeat in the 1971 war and was being rebuilt virtually from scratch during the Zia era. In fact, during the last 20 years, the Pakistan Navy has only continue to grow in strength and the Agosta programme of the mid-90s has made Pakistan's navy stronger than ever in its entire history.

The presence of a navy is not as important as you make it out to be. The commitment of a nation to serving God, however, is. It's not merely the commitment of the government that I refer to - but more importantly, the commitment of the average citizen.

23

Look Lajjo man, I REALLY enjoy cricket matches between us and India…not to mention assorted other Kafir countries like Australia, Srti Lanka, Engerrland etc. Now how is that going to happen if we have OBL and crew bombing Karachi?

I’ve got a solution which I think will suit everybody: He and his fellow mujahids should go home and bomb Riyadh…several times if necessary :k:

That way we can get on with stupid pursuits like sport and he gets to bomb traitorous regimes on home turf. Is it a deal?

24

Re: Of mod-Muslims…

Ameen.

Interesting post.

But I’m still not clear on your definition of “mod-Muslims.” Please clarify.

Does being a fighter for Islam require that one must kill innocents?
Please tell me what exactly those people who kill in the name of Islam today have done for Islam and Muslims. From where I stand, they have only given a bunch of bigots an excuse to restrict the rights, freedoms, and resources of Muslims throughout the world.

25

"In another thread a certain guppie mod, said that he'd rather play Cricket with the Kuffar than worry about anything else"

It's called peace and co-existance.

"Today, Muslim men, women and children are dying in droves in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Chechnya, Kashmir, Bosnia,"

Entertain for a minute the possibility that the concept of "Jihad" is being polluted to create an excuse for conflict and hatred.

26

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
The Soviet Union had one of the world's most powerful navies all the way up to its collapse. ..............

They had an immensely powerful submarine force, as well as a surface navy that was trained for and capable of launching amphibious assaults anywhere in Northern Europe.
.............

[/QUOTE]

So according to your assertion, this mighty Russian army was eating "Cholay" while their country was collapsing. Typical commie crap!!!

Simply put, mighty mouse Russian navy could not defend economic interests of Russia. They were only good to terrorize others.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
What defeated nazi germany was the fact that they lacked the economic resources to fight the war. They could not produce enough war material to fight both against the Soviets in the East and the Allies in the West.

[/QUOTE]

Nazis lost the day Bismarck and Scharnhorst were destroyed by the best navy in the world. You are not even aware that, just before its destruction, Bismarck was running with its tail between the legs. For the rest of the war, German navy was reduced to terrorist activities in the sea.

I do give credit to pre-WWII Japan for producing one of the finest navies in the world. It is interesting to note that Japanese navy was modeled exactly on the British standards.

Adm. Horatio Nelson was as big of a hero for Japanese as he was dear to British. In the end, Japanese did learn a lesson and said good-bye to terrorism. Now thanks to US help, Japan is an economic powerhouse. The same US help was the key for economic success of Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, Malaysia, and now China. Off course for Mullah-Tullah goons, this concept is really difficult to grasp. Perhaps their “Dimagh Choos” topees are to be blamed.

Bud! You lose navy, you lose your economic interests.

On the other hand, you win when
You raise sea-going fearless men, for trade
You train sea-going fearless men, for war
You build strong navies

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *

The lesson to be learnt is that an Islamic state must either be an economic powerhouse with the economic development and resources to sustain an arms race, or it must wither and die like the Soviet Union did.
[/QUOTE]

Any present day Islamic state is inherently weak and an economic failure. It is run by Mullah-Geery and not by strong business interests. So an Islamic state and an economically successful state are mutually exclusive ideas.

The sooner you accept it, the quicker you will be able to get on with constructive work. Modern economic system is now closely linked with your power to control the sea-lanes. If you can’t protect them, you loose your pants.

Mullah-Tullah goons have made Karachi a no-go area for international businessmen. Destruction of Karachi by nationalists was only the second phase. The previous phase was the Shia-Sunni fasad initiated by Mullah-Tullah goons.

Time to kick some Mullah-Tullah Terrorist A$$

27

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *
Simply put, mighty mouse Russian navy could not defend economic interests of Russia. They were only good to terrorize others.

Nazis lost the day Bismarck and Scharnhorst were destroyed by the best navy in the world. You are not even aware that, just before its destruction, Bismarck was running with its tail between the legs. For the rest of the war, German navy was reduced to terrorist activities in the sea.

I do give credit to pre-WWII Japan for producing one of the finest navies in the world. It is interesting to note that Japanese navy was modeled exactly on the British standards.

[/quote]

Your obsession with naval power is quite humorous.

The Soviet Union had no economic interests to be guarded by its Navy. Unlike the UK, it was not an island nation dependent on naval trade. It's economic resources were instead based on overland trade routes.

The Soviet Navy had 3 objectives.

a) Intelligence gathering (very successful)
b) Naval defence
c) Naval offense

It always had the capability to do all 3 roles well enough to counter NATO naval forces. The Soviet submarine fleet was the best in the world, both in terms of quantity and quality.

The Nazi Navy is a similar tale. Germany's lack of Naval power affected only its North African campaign, where the Afrika Korps could not be kept resupplied an ultimately surrendered. The Bismark, her sister ship the Tirpitz, the Scharnhorst and her sister ship the Gneisau were in the grand scheme of things insignificant to the rest of the war, because Germany's sole naval need was to blockade the UK, which its U-boat force was sufficient for - it was only the capture of the Enigma machine that led to the U-boat defeat.

Germany had no economic interest that its navy was capable of guarding. Its trades with its allies was all overland, rather than naval.

On the other hand, the German inability to produce sufficient fighter planes to cover the need of both its East Front armies and protect its domestic factories from the US 8th Air Force meant that its economic heart was gutted by air raids, causing ts defeat.

1,000,000 battleships could have done absolutely nothing to stop the US 8th Air Force from defeating Germany.

The rest of your argument is laughable- the weakness comes from your false assumption that an Islamic state has to be run by Mullahs

28

gadhon..how about moving this to culture?

29

I don't think we need to move it to another forum. Islam is an all encompassing religion with muslims of all hues orthodox, conservative, liberal and mod.Such debates are not discouraged in Islam in anyway, so going by that it should be left in this forum.

30

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
Your obsession with naval power is quite humorous.

[/QUOTE]

Battle of Trafalgar determined that London and not Paris will be the hub of commerce. Happy now? Read before arguing. Well may be that is too much to ask from a Mullah-Tullah follower.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *

.....your false assumption that an Islamic state has to be run by Mullahs
[/QUOTE]

Your concept is utterly dependent on Mullah-Tullah because in your proposed state

  1. They write the constitution
  2. Their interpretation is the law
  3. Mullah Tullah immediately start whipping and beheading
  4. Mullah Tullah force people to grow beards (for men it is open, for women it is hidden)
  5. They force girl school closures
  6. They beat up women in the bazar
  7. They force minorities to wear yellow stars just like their Peghambar Hazrat-e-Hitler.

and you still insist that your state will not be run by Mullah Tullah. If you want to kid yourself! Fine, go ahead make my day.

Time to kick some Araaab terrorist's Ar$$$e.

31

:k:

32

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *

Battle of Trafalgar determined that London and not Paris will be the hub of commerce. Happy now? Read before arguing. Well may be that is too much to ask from a Mullah-Tullah follower.
[/QUOTE]

:D

I was hoping that you'd be desperate enough to delve that far back in history.

Your example is utterly obsolete.

In the Napoleonic Wars which you reference, war had 2 dimensions : land and surface naval. To take the war to then enemy, you would have secure the surface of the seas so that you could transport your offensive power (troops) to the enemy.

Today, there are 4 dimensions: land, submarine naval, surface naval, and air. The latter is critical, as with long-ranged bombers and ballistic missiles you can take the war to your enemy without securing the seas between. And a submersible naval force can limit the capabilities of even the largest navies - much as, until the capture of the Enigma machine, Nazi Germany's U-boat force was able to practically strangle Britain despite Britain's vast naval superiority to Germany.

A powerful navy would be desirable for an Islamic state, but in the modern world, for the purposes of deterring aggression and mounting an effective defence, it is not mandatory. A potent submarine force can contain a large enemy navy, whilst air power can be used to take to the fight to him.

In the paradigm of the modern world, a powerful navy is only a requirement if you wish to project offensive land forces against nations that do not border you. That should not be a priority for an Islamic state, instead, it must focus on ensuring that first and foremost it has the capability to effectively defend Muslim lands. That means, in order of priority,

1) First of all a powerful air and missile force. The past 90 years of conventional war have demonstrated that the winning side always has air superiority
2) A powerful standing army, not one consisting of conscripts - again, the past 80 years have shown that volunteer soldiers are more committed to their cause, hence are more effective fighters.
3) A submarine force for naval defence and offensive missile strikes
4) Lastly, should resources be available, a surface fleet to control the seas.

33

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
............

A powerful navy would be desirable for an Islamic state, but in the modern world, ......., it is not mandatory. .......
[/QUOTE]

OK ginral sahib. You win!!!

p.s. How was the trip to Gitmo?

34

What historical inaccuracies Faisal? My knowledge is based upon my friend’s knowledge who was a student of Islamic history and a Hafiz…(Despite his personal life which I deem unnecessary to mention here) He was a very knowledgable person (including with dates)…

And as for the praise :jazak:, everything is from Allah :swt:…

As for verbal gymnastics, why was Shaikh Yassin killed? Wasn’t he a man who couldn’t even lift a finger? Wasn’t he also the one who was blown up by a Hellfire missile fired from an Apache by the ‘people of peace’, sanctioned by the ‘Champions of the free world’ for the same verbal gymnastics?

You forget Faisal…In today’s world, even your thoughts can land you in lethal danger should they become evident…The ‘People of Liberty and Justice’ are running scared and will stop at nothing until there are no more Mujahideen and scholars in this world fighting and speaking on behalf of Muslims…They want you subdued, humiliated and on a leash, to come running and begging at their command…No amount of peace treaties between them will quell thier fears until you do as the Quran says they want you to do…To become like them…But remember, if you become like them, you cease being a Muslim…For you are raised in Aakhira with the people you wish to be like the most…

At least I am using words…At the least…

Xtreme: You can play soccer, cricket, gulli danda or doctor doctor with whoever you please…No one is forcing you to think about Palestinians, Kashmiris or Chechens…To worry about, speak and fight for the Muslims is not everyone’s cup of tea…Those who have been given the Iman and concern for their brethren in faith are called Mujahideen, and they take on the responsibility of defending them…So go play cricket and leave the matters which concerns others to them…

OG: Your peace and coexistence lies in cruise missiles and bunker busters which fell on Afghanis because they asked for proof of Osama’a guilt…Just ask the innocent population of Iraq what price they paid and are paying for your lies and attempts at peace and coexistence…Your ‘peace and coexistence’ was evident by the crusades, when this country was founded by the distribution of contaminated blankets to, the two world wars and the ‘threat of mutual annihilation’…

You don’t know the meaning of peace and coexistence…Your peace and coexistence comes at the end of a barrel of a gun…Always has and always will…Harsh lessons must be taught in the same form of peace and coexistance that America unleashes upon the world upon America itself…

Antiobl: Forget the Aya-Tullahs and Mullah Tullahs…You are a Ras-Gullah…

35

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *

Xtreme: You can play soccer, cricket, gulli danda or doctor doctor with whoever you please...No one is forcing you to think about Palestinians, Kashmiris or Chechens...To worry about, speak and fight for the Muslims is not everyone's cup of tea...Those who have been given the Iman and concern for their brethren in faith are called Mujahideen, and they take on the responsibility of defending them...So go play cricket and leave the matters which concerns others to them...

[/QUOTE]

Well I wouldn't have brought this matter up but you specifically addressed something I said in another thread so of course I am going to answer. And for your information, your heroes by bombing Karachi, are making it very difficult for us to play cricket matches with various kafir countries. So sadly we can't leave matters as these very much concern us.

As i have stated clearly previously I would happily ignore these people if they bombed Riyadh instead.

36

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *

What historical inaccuracies Faisal? My knowledge is based upon my friend's knowledge who was a student of Islamic history and a Hafiz.....
[/QUOTE]

That pretty much clarifies it! A history written by the Mullah, of the Mullahs, and for the Mullahs is the most honest account of the history.

Anyone disagreeing with that will be subjected to hellfire.

Who cares about Mufti-e-Azam of Palestinians who became Hitlers' Wazir? Who cares about Saudis and Egyptians kicking the crap out of Khalifas during WWI? Those are mere footnotes in the Mullahic-history.

Long live Pakistan, Pak-Army Zindabaad.

37

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *Who cares about Mufti-e-Azam of Palestinians who became Hitlers' Wazir?

[/QUOTE]

Realistically, that guy had vision. He correctly foresaw that unless Hitler won, Palestine would be taken over by Jews - which, of course, if exactly what happened when Hitler lost.

You can't blame him for rousing Muslims to fight for the Axis - it was the only effective way to prevent the creation of a Jewish nation on top of Palestine.

Not to mention that his efforts led to the protection of Muslims in territories controlled by the Nazis such as the Balkans and the Crimea, in contrast to Hitler's previous beliefs that Muslims deserved little more respect than Jews.

So you take a man who protected Islam and Muslims in Nazi controlled lands, who got the Nazis to establish centres for the study of Islam inside Germany even as other religious beliefs were being wiped out, who made sure that the Nazis would provide imams for Muslim soldiers in their armies, who strived to save Palestine from Zionism, who did what he could to ensure that the British and French occupiers were ejected from Muslims lands, and you villify him?

And he didn't become Hitler's Wazir - that is an exaggeration, much like your posts.

38

^ interesting that you are expressing admiration and understanding for a man who allied himself with the most evil dictator in recent history, just because he got Hitler to hate muslims less than he hated jews.

39

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Stu: *
^ interesting that you are expressing admiration and understanding for a man who allied himself with the most evil dictator in recent history, just because he got Hitler to hate muslims less than he hated jews.
[/QUOTE]

Through his alliance, he protected Muslims from Nazi ideology. In Hitler's "racial ladder" theory, arabs and Muslims were but a cut above Jews, and yet the effort of that particular Muslim cleric ensure that the Nazi party did not persecute Muslims who either fell into its captivity as prisoners of war, or who were in areas that fell under Nazi rule, such as the Balkans.

This is a man who got the Nazis to ignore their own ideology about the gross inferiority of his people, and instead got them to leave them be.

For that I express admiration.

In addition, you claim that Hitler was the most evil dictator in recent history is distinctly questionable. Hitler only killed arounf 7-8 million people under his control.

Joseph Stalin killed around 28 million. He is, without doubt, the most evil of them all. And let's not forget which country gave more military aid to Joseph Stalin than the rest of the world combined...

40

Whoops - hit quote instead of edit.