Re: Obama V Romney
^ today's bill moyer show highlighted the role of partisan supreme court judges and Karl rove in shaping the future.
No system will work 100 percent. You can only do the best you can.
The last 200 years of progress however, augur well for the future.
Thats simply not a good enough excuse. The system needs to be near enough perfect, especially more so when its used as an excuse to impose on others; or when people are being denied basic rights.
The last 200 years are nothing to write home about if what we're seeing today are the results. The future does not really bode too well if this is all we have.
Re: Obama V Romney
Thats simply not a good enough excuse. The system needs to be near enough perfect, especially more so when its used as an excuse to impose on others; or when people are being denied basic rights.
The last 200 years are nothing to write home about if what we're seeing today are the results. The future does not really bode too well if this is all we have.
Reality isnt pleasant, but it is how it is. Yours is wishful and naive thinking. Whats simply not good enough for you is the nature of society and man. I can't help you there.
In the last 200 years we have created societies that proclaim that all men are equal, that they have rights endowed on them by virtue of simply being. We have created societies that yearn for equality of opportunity, equality of sexes, of all colors of life. We have societies governed by the people who inhabit that society, not by rulers who are supposedly chosen by the divine. We are living longer, we are more educated, we are understanding our Universe in ways our ancestors could never have imagined. We are societies governed by order, through justice. Its certainly not perfect, but its a work in progress. Everything seems like gloom and doom to you because you only perceive things through your own narrow window on the Universe which is limited by your mortality. In the larger perspective, the world is a much better place then it was centuries ago, and its thanks to the stability brought on by a society governed through democratic means. Over all, the system we have in place creates stability, which is essential in allowing and facilitating human progress on all levels.
Re: Obama V Romney
Corrupt people are everywhere, its the system that allows them in and lets them cover their tracks.
A system where the rich get richer and the poor get mauled, where lobbies and corporates can finance and buy politicians and media, commit crimes and then get bailed out, where police can violently suppress your right to protest, spy on you, arrest you in secret without evidence or trial, its evidently the system which is at fault here.
But is that really the best we can hope for? Because if thats the best, then we are pretty much doomed.
I agree with you, and I don't think you're naive. Many people realize this system of neo-feudalism, unfettered capitalism and permanent war is an artificial construct that cannot sustain itself. It's easy to poke fun at Republicans and Fox News - they are easy, comical targets. What's hollow and insidious is continuing to claim that the Democratic platform stands for something different. "Obama vs Romney" is an illusion of choice. A vote for Obama is just a cynical vote against Romney as far as I'm concerned. I've had enough of this impotent compulsion to 'vote for the lesser evil.' I won't do it.
Chris Hedges articulates this better in Death of the Liberal Class:
"The liberal class has ossified. It has become part of the system it once tried to reform. It continues to speak in the language of technical jargon and tepid political reform, even though the corporate state has long since gutted the mechanisms for actual reform. The failure by the liberal class to adjust to the harsh, new reality of corporate power and the permanent war economy, to acknowledge its own powerlessness, has left the liberal class isolated and despised. The liberal class has died because it refuses to act as if anything has changed. It ignored the looming environmental and economic collapse. It ignored the structural critique that might pull us back from the horrific effects of climate change and a global depression. Our power elite and their liberal apologists lack the ideas and the vocabulary to make sense of our new and terrifying reality."
[quote]
Reality isnt pleasant, but it is how it is. Yours is wishful and naive thinking. Whats simply not good enough for you is
the nature of society and man. I can't help you there. \quote]
If you think its ok to lie to get in power, to arrest without evidence, to torture and abuse; to wage wars on the premises of lies, to repress your own people, and if you think thats ok because its human nature, then that reflects more about yourself and your moral standards rather than anything else.
[quote]
In the last 200 years we have created societies that proclaim that all men are equal, that they have rights endowed on them by virtue of simply being. We have created societies that yearn for equality of opportunity, equality of sexes, of all colors of life. We have societies governed by the people who inhabit that society, not by rulers who are supposedly chosen by the divine. We are living longer, we are more educated, we are understanding our Universe in ways our ancestors could never have imagined. We are societies governed by order, through justice. Its certainly not perfect, but its a work in progress. Everything seems like gloom and doom to you because you only perceive things through your own narrow window on the Universe which is limited by your mortality. In the larger perspective, the world is a much better place then it was centuries ago, and its thanks to the stability brought on by a society governed through democratic means. Over all, the system we have in place creates stability, which is essential in allowing and facilitating human progress on all levels.
[/QUOTE]
.
You assume that your society is unique in its virtues and progress; and that this will continue for good. I have news for you, every powerful empire that once existed, was the bastion of their time, wether it was the british, roman, arab, persian, chinese etc. They all had their golden age that they still look fondly back on; just before they regressed and crumbled in on themselves.
The sounds of your walls crumbling is pretty loud and clear; but if you choose to ignore it and pretend everything is fine and dandy; then that is your problem to deal with. But i wouldn't sit there and assume the future is all good, because history has a funny tendency to repeat itself.
Still; despite all that, its not all about doom and gloom. In fact I havent felt so hopeful in all my short life.
We are witnessing a major major transition in the world; from the mideast to latin america, from the west to the east, there is a historic change taking place. The world is at a turning point, and there is definitely a divine hand behind all of this; but what's more; is that the best is yet to come, albeit not before it gets much much worse.
So Hows that for a bigger picture?
I agree with you, and I don't think you're naive. Many people realize this system of neo-feudalism, unfettered capitalism and permanent war is an artificial construct that cannot sustain itself. It's easy to poke fun at Republicans and Fox News - they are easy, comical targets. What's hollow and insidious is continuing to claim that the Democratic platform stands for something different. "Obama vs Romney" is an illusion of choice. A vote for Obama is just a cynical vote against Romney as far as I'm concerned. I've had enough of this impotent compulsion to 'vote for the lesser evil.' I won't do it.
Chris Hedges articulates this better in Death of the Liberal Class:
"The liberal class has ossified. It has become part of the system it once tried to reform. It continues to speak in the language of technical jargon and tepid political reform, even though the corporate state has long since gutted the mechanisms for actual reform. The failure by the liberal class to adjust to the harsh, new reality of corporate power and the permanent war economy, to acknowledge its own powerlessness, has left the liberal class isolated and despised. The liberal class has died because it refuses to act as if anything has changed. It ignored the looming environmental and economic collapse. It ignored the structural critique that might pull us back from the horrific effects of climate change and a global depression. Our power elite and their liberal apologists lack the ideas and the vocabulary to make sense of our new and terrifying reality."
I simply dont get the whole circus; i mean the elites have vested interest; but the average joey? Why get so....excited? Why always dance to the tune thats played to them?
'Obama vs Romney is an illusion of choice''. Thank you. That is the crux of my argument. And Chris hedges is spot on. The liberals are no longer what they pretend to stand for.
Everyone seems keen to hold on to this fantasy that they live in, too scared to see the reality around them. They don't realise that the bubble burst some time ago and sooner or later they will be forced to face the reality.
Heck Romney is still insisting this is still the new american century; but even without context ; it sounds quite hollow and meek.
Re: Obama V Romney
I agree with you, and I don't think you're naive. Many people realize this system of neo-feudalism, unfettered capitalism and permanent war is an artificial construct that cannot sustain itself. It's easy to poke fun at Republicans and Fox News - they are easy, comical targets. What's hollow and insidious is continuing to claim that the Democratic platform stands for something different. "Obama vs Romney" is an illusion of choice. A vote for Obama is just a cynical vote against Romney as far as I'm concerned. I've had enough of this impotent compulsion to 'vote for the lesser evil.' I won't do it.
Chris Hedges articulates this better in Death of the Liberal Class:
"The liberal class has ossified. It has become part of the system it once tried to reform. It continues to speak in the language of technical jargon and tepid political reform, even though the corporate state has long since gutted the mechanisms for actual reform. The failure by the liberal class to adjust to the harsh, new reality of corporate power and the permanent war economy, to acknowledge its own powerlessness, has left the liberal class isolated and despised. The liberal class has died because it refuses to act as if anything has changed. It ignored the looming environmental and economic collapse. It ignored the structural critique that might pull us back from the horrific effects of climate change and a global depression. Our power elite and their liberal apologists lack the ideas and the vocabulary to make sense of our new and terrifying reality."
you missed the point. We all agree that the system has flaws. What ma muli is saying is that the entire Democratic system.in general needs to go. My point was that its the people who are flawed, but not democracy. Itself. It almost seems redundant even making the point.
Re: Obama V Romney
[quote] Reality isnt pleasant, but it is how it is. Yours is wishful and naive thinking. Whats simply not good enough for you is the nature of society and man. I can't help you there. \quote]
If you think its ok to lie to get in power, to arrest without evidence, to torture and abuse; to wage wars on the premises of lies, to repress your own people, and if you think thats ok because its human nature, then that reflects more about yourself and your moral standards rather than anything else.
.
You assume that your society is unique in its virtues and progress; and that this will continue for good. I have news for you, every powerful empire that once existed, was the bastion of their time, wether it was the british, roman, arab, persian, chinese etc. They all had their golden age that they still look fondly back on; just before they regressed and crumbled in on themselves.
The sounds of your walls crumbling is pretty loud and clear; but if you choose to ignore it and pretend everything is fine and dandy; then that is your problem to deal with. But i wouldn't sit there and assume the future is all good, because history has a funny tendency to repeat itself.
Still; despite all that, its not all about doom and gloom. In fact I havent felt so hopeful in all my short life.
We are witnessing a major major transition in the world; from the mideast to latin america, from the west to the east, there is a historic change taking place. The world is at a turning point, and there is definitely a divine hand behind all of this; but what's more; is that the best is yet to come, albeit not before it gets much much worse.
So Hows that for a bigger picture?
My friend. What r u arguing? What is ur point? I agree, the system has massive flaws... Its a systm hampered by human nature, but that's the same with any human institution. Would you have us throw out the entire Democratic system? To be replaced by what?
And by society I mean all of us. Human society. I assume that you are a member of Earth bound society and not Mars or Venus? That you have lived your short life without dying of disease, gotten educated, and are now able to type that message thanks to your computer, is because of the stability afforded by our system of governance. Its due to a stable system of governance that humans have seen massive, unparalleled growth over just the past few hundred years. The system is flawed, humanity is flawed, but democracy is the best chance to fix it. Democracy can correct itself over time, through its own democratic institutions, all be it in increments, but over the long term it creates stability and a more just and equitable society.
Re: Obama V Romney
Can you name me one time in history when politics was NOT a circus? And I dont want to hear about the Islamic Khalifa…
This same circus has been going on in American politics and everywhere else from the start. Examine the elections from the past and see for yourself. Its always a circus, because people like to be entertained. People elect the person the like, not because they like what he says, but because he is a showmen. Best example would be the survey done in the 60’s comparing those who saw Kennedy and Nixon debate on tv, and those who heard them on radio. Those who listened on the radio thought Nixon won, while those who say it on TV thought Kennedy won. What this shows is that people dont generally follow policy, they tend to follow personality. The politicians and parties know this, so that is why they groom their candidates like circus acts, they are entertainers, and it appeals to that aspect of the psyche.
http://www.museum.tv/eotvsection.php?entrycode=kennedy-nixon
Re: Obama V Romney
So Mitt Romney has insulted 47% of Americans. Saying they don't pay taxes and play victim. This includes senior citizens veterans and those making low salary -! After personal exemption they don't owe taxes.
Of course they pay payroll taxes - a regressive tax - which can amt to 15% of their salary.
By Romney's own definition he may have paid capital gains but no income tax. And he would not release his tax returns.
It is also known several millionaires don't pay taxes due to clever tax accountants.
Re: Obama V Romney
So Mitt Romney has insulted 47% of Americans. Saying they don't pay taxes and play victim. This includes senior citizens veterans and those making low salary -! After personal exemption they don't owe taxes.
Of course they pay payroll taxes - a regressive tax - which can amt to 15% of their salary.
By Romney's own definition he may have paid capital gains but no income tax. And he would not release his tax returns.
It is also known several millionaires don't pay taxes due to clever tax accountants.
At this point its starting to feels like wtching a cricket game where your team is trying to defend a measly 150 runs, and the opposing team has all their wickets, 100 runs on the board and half the overs remaining. Its like, why even watch?
Mittens is practically finished.
Re: Obama V Romney
I hope so. There are still a couple of tricks for Romney
Block voters
Supreme court
Re: Obama V Romney
I hope so. There are still a couple of tricks for Romney
Block voters Supreme court
When Republicans start abandoning their own candidate, thats not a good sign at all...
Re: Obama V Romney
I sure hope so. To quote you favorite philosopher, it ain't over till the fat lady sings.
Re: Obama V Romney
I sure hope so. To quote you favorite philosopher, it ain't over till the fat lady sings.
Does Monica Lewinski count? She apparently wrote a book recently.. :)
Re: Obama V Romney
^ badabum badabang!
Re: Obama V Romney
Re: Obama V Romney
Speaking of Romney’s 47%…
Re: Obama V Romney
Re: Obama V Romney
Gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Romney!!!