Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

It is not difficult. If Pakistan had cooperated and not played both sides, both Afghanistan and Pakistan would have been rid of terrorists years ago. Pakistani establishment kept shielding the terrorists and that is what made the whole WOT so prolonged and expensive in terms of human and $ costs!

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

People don't like the truth . They wanted to be made fool . It is Universal . Don't try to speak the truth .

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

What ever Pakistan can do when nato is sitting in afghanistan is overblown, the fact is that international forces have failed there and they need a scape goat, read about history of Vietnam war and what the Americans did to Cambodia.

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/pakistan-affairs/556503-pak-us-relationship-afghan-war-end-game.html

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

^ Actually it is the other way around. With Pakistani establishment NOT wanting to get rid of terrorists and in many cases actually abetting them, NATO efforts, $$s and lives were only marginally effective.

If you really think about it, it is quite despicable that Pakistani establishment will actually use their citizenry as cannon fodder in perpetuating their powers!

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

Amazing that when Pakistan attacks the terrorists, Nato and especially the American forces open the Afghan border for them to escape. Why? everyone including Nato are using these terrorists for their own advantage. that is the reason why suddenly taliban form terrorists became good Taliban and bad. It si despicable that even after 10 years and killing thousands of innocnet citizens Nato's achievement is zilch. Shame really but than nothing new, Vietnam, Cambodia, somalia Iraq everywhere the same story.

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

Let's say I agree with you that Pakistan is training and abetting terrorists on its side of the border, now you tell me why the Americans have left whole of eastern Afghanistan to the taleban?

Re: Drone attacks just and legal: white house

m.guardian.co.uk

m.guardian.co.uk****Last October I was at a jirga in Islamabad where 80 people from Waziristan had assembled to talk about the US Predator drones that buzz around overhead, periodically delivering death by Hellfire missile. A jirga is the traditional forum for discussing and resolving disputes, part parliament, part court of law. The turbaned tribal elders were joined by their young sons on a rare foray out of their region to meet outsiders and discuss the killing. The isolation of the Waziris is almost total – no western journalist has been to Miranshah for several years.

At our meeting I spoke as the representative westerner. I reported the CIA claim that not one single innocent civilian had been killed in over a year. I did not need to understand Pashtu to translate the snorts of derision when this claim was translated.

During the day I shook the hand of a 16-year-old kid from Waziristan named Tariq Aziz. One of his cousins had died in a missile strike, and he wanted to know what he could do to bring the truth to the west. Atthe Reprieve charity, we have a transparency project: importing cameras to the region to try to export the truth back out. Tariq wanted to take part, but I thought him too young.

Then, three days later, the CIA announced that it had eliminated “four militants”. In truth there were only two victims: Tariq had been driving his 12-year-old cousin to their aunt’s house when the Hellfire missile killed them both. This came just 24 hours after the CIA boasted of eliminating six other “militants” – actually, four chromite workers driving home from work. In both cases a local informant apparently tagged the car with a GPS monitor and lied to earn his fee.
Last week officials in the Obama administration talked to the New York Times about the “Secret Kill List” drawn up for drone assassinations. Democratic strategists in an election year calculate that the article will prove a vote-winner, dispelling any notion that Barack Obama is soft on terror. The administration voices wanted to leave the impression of an involved and committed president who reads Thomas Aquinas’s theory of the “just war” in between personally vetting the kill list.

Mitt Romney dubbed Obama “Dr Strangelove” back in 2007. It may have been a rare, perceptive insight. A decision by the smartest man in the room is only as good as the information that he receives, and no matter how accurate the shiny new missile, if it’s aimed at the wrong person it will hit the wrong target.

**It is easy to understand how the CIA slaughtered Tariq and many other innocent victims. Those who press the Hellfire buttons are 8,000 miles away in Nevada and are dependent on local “intelligence”. Just as with Guantánamo Bay, the CIA is paying bounties to those who will identify “terrorists”. Five thousand dollars is an enormous sum for a Waziri informant, translating to perhaps £250,000 in London terms. **The informant has a calculation to make: is it safer to place a GPS tag on the car of a truly dangerous terrorist, or to call down death on a Nobody (with the beginnings of a beard), reporting that he is a militant? Too many “militants” are just young men with stubble. At least 174 have been children.

**The New York Times reports that Obama first embraced a policy of taking no prisoners in order to avoid the embarrassing sore of Guantánamo. Then he accepted a method for assessing casualties that “counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants” unless there is explicit posthumous proof of their innocence – because they are probably “up to no good”.

**
While Obama’s policies may go down a treat in the US, they are fomenting radicalism abroad, the very policy not only undermining our way of life but provoking an extremist hydra with many more heads.

Some sane voices penetrate the gloom. Starting last summer, Cameron Munter, Obama’s ambassador to Islamabad, was required to give a thumbs up or down assessment of each drone attack on Pakistani turf, as if he were an emperor in the Colosseum. “He didn’t realise his main job was to kill people,” said a colleague. Munter is quitting his job early this month because his diplomatic mission has been rendered impossible.

The dearth of US domestic criticism is astounding. The last time a president indulged in an illegal bombing campaign in the sovereign territory of allies (Richard Nixon in 1969, in Cambodia and Laos), the policy nearly got included in the articles of impeachment. We should remember that history, as the Vietnamese capitalised on the backlash, helping to impose the genocidal Khmer Rouge on Cambodia, and a single-party regime that endures 40 years later in Laos.

Ultimately, Mitt Romney faces a dilemma: what must a Republican candidate do to outflank the extremism of his Democratic opponent? The rest of us must be concerned as well: we are sleepwalking into the Drone Age, and few people are debating the dire consequences.

Clive Stafford Smith is director of the charity *Reprieve](http://www.reprieve.org.uk/), which has a project intended to provoke debate on drones.*

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

the terrorists have to first leave Pakistan to be then blocked in Afghanistan. Why wouldn't you expect Pakistan to block them in Pakistan, at the source? One would expect Pakistan, being the local authority will have lot of more ability to control its own borders than a visiting force such as the NATO can in Afghanistan. The killing of innocent civilians is squarely because Pakistani establishment played double games which made drones and such long duration necessary!

OBL is dead in spite of Pakistani establishment because the raid was kept secret from them. Is that zilch result?

I don't know the specific reasons and can only guess - that the Americans just don't have sufficient resources to cover the entire region and Pakistan is not helping matters any! I see it as something like this:

I have $10 to spend.
If I spend all $10 in buying normal rifles, when I use them, I will have the impact of using $10 worth
If I spend $6 in normal rifles and $4 in rifles that shoot backwards, then the maximum impact I can expect is not just $6 worth of progress but also $4 worth of negative & regressive effect.
That's what happened here. Americans spent money on Pakistani establishment who used it to fire at Americans themselves, theoretically and literally!

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

When Pak forces did attack them they let them escape into Afghanistan. Why? Just answer that. NATO is to be equally blamed as they are playing the double game especially the Americans. When it comes to Americans you make a convenient excuse that they don't have enough resources. Don't they, well they should, they came into Afghanistan, no one invited them and the very people they came after are now they want to negotiate with, because they have realised they have failed to beat them. With all their might if they failed why do they expect Pakistan to perform miracles.

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

Think about it again, in 1990s after Russia's demise US left without repairing anything and left pieces for Pakistan to handle. Why should Pakistan trust US when and how US decides to leave, whether Afghanistan would be in good shape when US leaves or not? Today you can see why Pakistan feared that, US is talking to bring same people in government who it was fighting. US thinks that it is smart move but ground reality is that it creates enemies locally.

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

Yes I agree with you that NATO with all it's mighty resources and after spending trillions of dollars they are not able to do anything and they expect a financially bankrupt country to defeat the people whom they have not been able to defeat themselves. Whatever is happening to the Americans in Afghanistan have been the fate of all the invaders of Afghanistan, the current invaders are no different. Secondly when ever the Americans are losing they make other countries scape goats like they made Cambodia and Laos in the Vietnam war. The terrorism within Pakistan has to do a lot with American engagement in the region during the past 33 years.

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

People on this forum have a utopian view of the Army and ISI. They have no idea what goes on west of Islamabad. Powerful elements in Pakistan has had a long history of supporting militants because they believe these people are needed,

I personally think Afghanistan woul have pacified long ago had these elements in Pakistan stopped interfering. At the moment the resistance to the NATO/US/UN Mission is mainly by Taliban who are not even representative of the whole population. Had the Afghans all wanted the foregn troops out the whole country and not just 1 specific milita would be at war. Pakistanis have a problem comprehending this. They believe all Afghans = Taliban. Not even all Pashtuns support Taliban. In Pakistan the myth that Taliban have the right to rule Afghanistan is presented to the public by the intelligence propaganda machine.

The OBL drama last year showed how much is being held from us. Americans have to send their own contractors to Pakistan to get the job done.

A lot of posters here need to stick their head out of the sand and realise that these elements in Pakistan are not only destroying Afghanistan but Pakistan too. Pakistan will pay a high price if some one does not castrate these elements. Sadly, only then will wee see the Afghan conflict pacify.

I see in the future either a Pakistan or Afghanistan existing, not both. I think the world community wants Afghanistan to exist and I dont see Pakistan existing in 2-3 years, if the elements are not challenged. Pakistans future looks very bleak to me. We should not bow to the USA but then again we should not double deal.

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

^ inshaAllah Pakistan will stay dont worry. The world tries to make isi feel more powerful that it really is. Anyways Americans always need enemies, at the moment it happens to be 'Islamists' when they declare victory here it would be some one else (maybe china).

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

A related news ;
http://gdb.voanews.eu/ACD4266A-11D0-4BA9-A058-A14309C76C62_w308_r1.jpg

US Officials Say Drone Strike Targeted Al-Qaida’s No. 2 Death of Abu Yahia al-Libi, if confirmed, would be a major blow to the terror group; attack killed at least 15 people More

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

^ this guy supposedly escaped from American custody in 2005. They have previously claimed his death as well, nothings sure yet.

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

If Pakistan with their huge army in home turf is unable to block the terrorists at their border from their own side, why do you expect the NATO to be able to cover the same border with a hundredth of the boots from the Afghan side?

And what invasion has occurred after invitation by those invaded?

Pakistan is not expected to perform any miracles - all they were asked to do was cooperate in fighting against terrorists. Instead they abetted them! that is the problem here

BTW that is how things seem like from outside for me. As a local I am sure you see some of this differently but the big picture facts are all out there that you cannot deny.

DOn't you agree with me that had Pak establishment truly cooperated only with NATO and not played double games, this war would have been over a long time ago and the drones would have been unnecessary?

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

If fighting terrorism was merely a factor of $s this would have been done a loooong time ago. Regardless of how much money was spent, if a partner such as Pakistan is going to play both sides, especially giving shelter to terroists to recoup and train, how do you expect an outside force such as NATO/USA to overcome them?

The sad irony is while USA paid a lot of money some of which ended up workimng against their own soldiers, Pakistan's double game actually ended up in their own citizenry losing life and limbs at the hands of terrorists!

Re: Now we know why Cameron Munter left.

American policies of the past 33 years are biting Nato in Afghanistan and Pakistanis in Pakistan. As far as any defeat in Afghanistan is concerned that wouldn't be happening there for the first time, when the Americans started the campaign the Russians tried to explain the consequences to them.