Re: Non-Shias attending Shia majlises/milad- is it ok?
Brother Ibn Sadiqui: I am not confused, neither when I mention Sunni, I mean Berelvi. When I mention Sunni, I mean traditional Sunnis that we find all over Muslim world (with more or less similar beliefs).
Actually, there is no such thing as Berelvi. Ahmed Raza Khan from city ‘Bareilly’ was just a Sunni scholar in whose time a group claiming to be Suuni Muslim, under the influence of Saudi ‘Abdul Wahab’ emerged from Deoband (hence called Deobandi). Ahmed Raza Khan sahib only contested their (Deobandi) beliefs that were erroneous and opposite to Sunni beliefs, so calling Sunni as Berelvi is unjustified.
Do not say that Sunni beliefs are influenced by Shia beliefs, just because Wahabi and Deobandi beliefs are different. Most of the time it was Sunnis who dominated writings as well as government, so it is impossible that Shia belief would influence Sunni beliefs, rather if there could be any influence, than it has to be other way round.
It is untrue that Aqeedah (beliefs) of Wahabis and Deobandis are same as Sunnis (traditional Sunnis). Both have different fundamental Aqeedahs, and that includes Aqeedahs regarding Allah, prophets, death, life after death, intercessions, graves, good and bad deeds, Ahle-Bayt, and many more.
As for Shias, here also I am not confused. I am talking about Shias that we have in Pakistan, and they are mostly 12ers (though it is my guess that fundamental beliefs of most Shias could be same).
Re: Non-Shias attending Shia majlises/milad- is it ok?
Brother Ibn Sadiqui: I am not confused, neither when I mention Sunni, I mean Berelvi. When I mention Sunni, I mean traditional Sunnis that we find all over Muslim world (with more or less similar beliefs).
Actually, there is no such thing as Berelvi. Ahmed Raza Khan from city ‘Bareilly’ was just a Sunni scholar in whose time a group claiming to be Suuni Muslim, under the influence of Saudi ‘Abdul Wahab’ emerged from Deoband (hence called Deobandi). Ahmed Raza Khan sahib only contested their (Deobandi) beliefs that were erroneous and opposite to Sunni beliefs, so calling Sunni as Berelvi is unjustified.
Indeed you are confused – Read the highlighted words – Confusing isn’t it?
Lol please, my father prayed with his arms folded behind Fasihuddin Soharwardi's father in Karachi. No big deal.
Yeah same is done (folding arms) by Shia brothers who come to Friday prayers at my mosque (practicing tuqyah)the only difference being they place paper instead of turbah at the place of placing forehead while in sujjud.
So I can safely assume that your dear grandma did not reciprocate the noble gesture by her best friends by accompanying them to Taraweeh prayers. :) Yeah, no big deal as you say.:)
Re: Non-Shias attending Shia majlises/milad- is it ok?
Peace again Sa1eem
Once again you are showing that you have not studied this area well …
Look let me show you the comparison in each case and show you the similarities and differences between the Barelvis (B), Deobandis (D) and Wahabis (W).
1) Aqeedah
(B) Maturidi - Yes Barelvis are Maturidi in aqeedah
(D) Maturidi -
(W) Athari
2) Fiqh
(B) Hanafi
(D) Hanafi
(W) Take from all schools but mostly from Hanbali
3) Accept Sufi Sciences
(B) Yes, Readily
(D) Yes, traditionally do but modern ones are less inclined
(W) No
Differences
The main difference between Deobandis and Barelvis is this: Deobandis want a clear divide between belief and respect they want to prioritise the worship towards ibadat which is Fard and then Sunnah and are less inclined to adopt practices that are not well grounded.
Barelvis will adopt many practices for fadzail purposes and prefer a more interrelated classification of belief and respect … so they dwell on poetic designation.
As a Sufi I believe the Deobandis can benefit from some of the ideas in the Barelvi group and as a Deobandi I feel Barelvis ought to study more of the rules so they understand the differences in belief and acts of virtue. I am Deobandi by madhab yet I asked my my imams about whether it is permissible to take tariqah and practice the Sufi practices and you would be surprised to hear that he said “yes” it is allowed and there is a strong basis for it within the Deobandi schools - So I took bayah in the Shadhili order.
Many other Shadhilis in the UK are Barelvis, some Malikis and some Shafi’is so can you imagine in such groups of mixed people we are all ONE brotherhood. The real reason why there is so much enmity between Deobandis and Barelvis is because of the politics - each want to gain more people in their favour and it boils down to dunyawipun …
To a Deobandi the Barelvis look like Shi’a and to a Barelvi the Deobandis look like Wahabis.
The fact is neither the Deobandi nor the Barelvis are either of them and in fact are very close together themselves - their main teaching chains actually join back to the same schools.
Deobandis are slightly closer to the Wahabis but not enough to be called Wahabis this is only because Shah Waliullah used to use Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah as a reference. His understanding was very different to the understanding of Abdul Wahab Al-Najdi who is credited for the Wahabi madhab.
As you can see these differences are to do with respect vs belief - there is a certain level of respect required for RasoolAllah (SAW), the Deobandis will be blunt about it in order to separate Allah (SWT) from His creation. But the Barelvis say nothing that they do not end up disrespecting RasoolAllah (SAW).
Possible conflict resolution:
'AlimulGhaib (Rabb) = Allah (SWT) and 'AlimulGhaib (Abd) = RasoolAllah (SAW)
Allah (SWT) is Hazir o Nazir in Asl, but RasoolAllah (SAW) is Hazir o Nazir in the poetic sense
Mukhtar e kul = The difference between humanity’s freedom of Choice and Qadr has the same tension here.
Nur or Bashr = Nur and Bashr - Human but not like any human - Ruby is a stone, but not like any stone.
Re: Non-Shias attending Shia majlises/milad- is it ok?
its no big deal, but then, I think the majlises held in pakistan and outside pakistan is different or is becoming ...
its easy to find a zakir/zakira in pakistan and usually the speech given is what the audience wants to hear yani suiting the people/area ...
where as those held outside the speakers past speeches are screened, has knowledge and not extreme then is he/she invited to give lecture in that country/city ...
maybe thats why such different opinion on majlises ...
Re: Non-Shias attending Shia majlises/milad- is it ok?
How do you expect other religions and peoples to be tolerant of Islam if you yourself can't even show tolerance to people of your own faith.
How can we call those, who are intolerant of our faith, bad people if we ourselves are intolerant of our own brothers.
This sunni shia divide seems to be a huge reason for the division between Muslims.
Very, very saddening that such a mentality exists amongst educated people in the world.
This.
...wish there were no sects in Islam and we could all be 'MUSLIMS'.
& THIS!!!
I absolutely hate how there's a constant battle of "which sect is better/ right/ more righteous". Such a waste of time.
Why can't we all just come together as an Ummah and follow the teachings of The Prophet (saw) and Allah (swt) with out building these walls of separation?! Instead, why not focus on becoming better Muslims?
Re: Non-Shias attending Shia majlises/milad- is it ok?
[note] The discussion may continue, but please keep the rules in mind! If needed, review the rules before posting further. If you feel a previous post or any posts from here forward are disrespectful or breaks the rules in any way, either send me a PM or click the yellow report button. Thank you. [/note]
Re: Non-Shias attending Shia majlises/milad- is it ok?
psyah, can you name an Imam/scholar of first three generations whose opinion is disregarded by salafis?
Brother ajazali ... Well if that even made sense I perhaps could answer it ...
We don't get any of our opinions from the first three generations ... Because none of them are around today ...
We get our understandings by studying and reflecting on the documented sayings and documented actions from the first three generations and from our teachers ... i.e. we can claim we accept the first three generations ... But we can only prove it when we also say that we follow a chain of a teacher to student going back unbroken to the first three generations and that ijaza permeates that chain.
Today we pick up books ... And often Salafi brothers do this will pick up books and self-study them ... Such as Sahih Bukhari ... But in actual fact by doing so they are not going to Imam Bukhari they are in fact going to the Publishers of that version of a translation of a possibly abridged version of Sahih Bukhari ... And they put trust in it, typos included as though it is from Imam Bukhari himself.
This is the danger in breaking the chain ... We end up breaking a chain of understanding and context. So although the Salafis may accept the opinions of the scholars of the first three generations they will not be able to show that their opinion about the opinion of the first three generations is accurate as they don't have teachers to tell them that their teachers told them this or that ... Rather many Salafis are a result of students breaking away from their teachers.
Re: Non-Shias attending Shia majlises/milad- is it ok?
Why are you assuming? Why not inquire whether the grandmothers friends actually invited his grandmother to come to taraveeh prayers? Cuz none of my friends ever did even though I would invite them and their families to attend the majlis at our house.
Re: Non-Shias attending Shia majlises/milad- is it ok?
Brother, thanks for your post. I know that reasoning or discussion may not change you or what you belief, neither it is my aim to change you or your beliefs. On judgment day, you would be responsible of your faith as much as I would be responsible of my faith. Anyhow, I am putting down what I believe and understand … and you have every right to reject what I am writing, just like I am rejecting what you wrote. Certainly, you can even ignore and do not read what I am writing or read casually without understanding (as I feel you have done with most of my earlier posts, and that is obvious from your replies). As far as I am concerned, I think whatever you wrote about Aqeedah is not only wrong, but to me, it is illogical too.
First let me go into Fiqh, something should not have been part of discussion here, as Fiqh is to do with laws of Islam that one follows (Hanafi, shafi, Hambli, Maliki, Jafri, etc) and not Aqeedah (elements of faith) that a Muslim should have (Iman) to be Muslim.
A person is Muslim regardless of whatever fiqh one accepts as laws of Islam and follows (though following laws in personal life that is clearly mentioned in Quran is obligatory). It is just like a person is Muslim even if he is following British laws, Pakistani laws, Indian laws, or American laws, while living in those countries … because Islam depends on Aqeedah (believes and faith or Iman on those beliefs) and not what laws one is following.
Imams of Fiqh have taken laws mentioned in Quran and where laws are not mentioned or clear, they used Sunnah to determine laws. If something is not mentioned in Quran and Sunnah (something is still unclear) than they go for Ijmah (customs, culture, tradition in the area), Ijtihad (concensus) and Qiyas (Analogical reasoning).
Fiqh itself cannot determine differences between two groups of Muslims, because all fiqhs are what Imams of fiqh understood as valid laws in Islam (be that Imam Shia, Sunni or whoever).
Differences in fiqhs are not there due to Aqeedah. Differences are there due to Imams following different understanding of Quran, Sunnah of Prophet (SAW) they considered as true (hadith they accepted), or enacting laws due to following different Ijmah (as Ijmah of places could be different), different Ijtihad, or different Qiyas.
Now coming to Aqeedah (elements of faith): Aqeedah is not theology but it is elements of faith … or … Aqeedah = Beliefs and Iman on those beliefs.
[Though I know that some people due to ignorance consider that Aqeedah is theology]
Religion is based on Aqeedah (certain beliefs). Persons with two different major Aqeedahs (major elements of faith) can be considered as persons following different religion. In Islam there are 6 basic elements of Aqeedah, and they are:
Aqedah on Allah, Prophets (AS), Angels, Revealed books, Judgement day, and Fate.
Obviously just above Aqeedah (beliefs) could not make a person Muslim, as one can have ‘Iman’ on all above 6 basic elements of Islamic Aqeedah but may not consider Prophet (SAW) as prophet of Allah [for that person, all prophets do not include Prophet (SAW)], or may consider God that has shape and form (different then Muslims concept of God), or may consider all books as books of Allah except Quran (for that person, all books are books of Allah, but that person do not believe that Quran is book of Allah), and so on.
So, after having ‘Iman’ on basic element of Aqeedah, we have Aqeedah that defines those basic elements of Aqeedah. Further, we have other Aqeedahs that is part of Islam but not considered as basic elements of Aqeedah. For instance, it is Aqeedah of Muslims that Prophet (SAW) went on Mirage physically, and met Allah (ST), Prophets are born prophets, Prophets cannot do sin, Attributes of Allah are absolute, One cannot worship anyone or anything other than Allah, Prophets are free from worldly tests, and so on.
If a person has different Aqeedah than above mentioned Aqeedahs, then that person cannot be a Muslim, or at least cannot be a main stream Muslim.
Then there are beliefs that may be different but still does not become part of Aqeedah (though would still going to be Islamic theological belief). For instance, some Muslims may believe that Zulqarnain (mentioned in Quran) was a Prophet, while others may believe that he was not a Prophet but a ‘Just’ ruler and believer. Some may believe that … companion of Musa (AS) mentioned in Surah Kahaf … was Khizr (AS) and he is ever living Prophet of Allah, while other Muslims may differ on the issue. And so on (there are many issues in this category).
Now, you can see that for a Muslim to be a Muslim they would have to have certain Aqeeedah (beliefs and Iman on those beliefs) that also applies on Muslims at the time of Prophet (SAW) just like Muslims of today. So, how can something whose existence came later in Islam (like Mutazillah, Ashari, Maturidi, Atahri, etc) … much after the death of Prophet (SAW), could be part of Aqeedah?
Now coming to theological schools that influenced later Islamic theological beliefs. Mutazillah, Ashari, Maturidi, Atahri … all are theological schools, not Aqeedah. They give ways to look into Islamic theological thinking and understanding, but cannot be called Aqeedah nor can affect Aqeedah. If they are Aqeedah of Muslim then all Muslims who lived before these theological schools came into existence would cease to be Muslim, as them earlier Muslims would have Aqeedah different than later Muslims having schools of theology (or what they propagate) as Aqeedah.
I believe, there is misunderstanding on the issue because it seems some people are getting confused with the word Aqeedah and theology.
Muazillah, Ashari, Maturidi, Athari … they are all school of theology. They developed centuries after death of Prophet (SAW) and determine ways of looking into things that Muslim believes. On their own, none of them (or what they propagate) can be Aqeedah, and that is obvious too. All started much after death of Prophet (SAW) and thus could not determine Aqeedah of Islam (though may give some theological beliefs to anyone who agrees with them). For instance:
Mutazillah theological school: Mutazillah theology started around 100 years after death of Prophet (SAW), by Wasil ibn Ata in Basra when Wasil ibn Ata got into dispute with his teacher Hasan al-Basri (RA) and left Hasan Al-Basri teaching to start his own theology teaching (thus formed new theological School).
[So to say that whoever believes on Mutizillah theological beliefs, their Aqeedah is Mutazillah (or what Mutazillah propagate), is ridiculous. Saying such would mean Hasan al-Basri Aqeedah and Aqeedah of all Muslims before Mutizillite were wrong and Wasil ibn Ata Aqeedah was right.
Fact is that, dispute between Wasil ibn Ata and Hasan al-Basri was not on Aqeedah of Islam, but on an aspect of Islamic theological beliefs and how to look at it, that can vary between Muslims, as I mentioned above.]
Let us go forward from era of Mutazillah:
Ashari theological school: Around 300 years after death of prophet (SAW), Abu al-Hasan al-Ashari who was Mutazilite, started a new theological school (Ashari) that looked into theological beliefs and reasoning in different way than Mutazilites.
Maturidi theological school: Around similar time as Ashari, around 300 years after the death of prophet (SAW), Abu Mansur Al Maturidi started Maturidi theological school that even though has many similarities with Ashari theological reasoning, but there are few differences.
Athari theological school: Same can be said about Atahri theological school that is linked to Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal … again, originated around 200 years after the death of Prophet (SAW).
So, even though these theological schools could affect theological beliefs and reasoning of people having faith on these schools, still Mutazilli, Ashari, Maturidi, or Athari cannot be called Aqeedah (or could effect Aqeedah). Saying that Sunnis Aqeedah is Maturidi or Ashari is preposterous accusation, as they are not Aqeedah but theological schools.
Most surprising is that … all these theological schools came into existence after the death of most eminent scholars of Islam (except Muzallite theological school that came during earlier Abbasi rule, when some Taba-Tabayeen were present).
Imam Malik, Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, Imam Jafar Sadiq, Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafi and so on … even Prophet (SAW) and all Sahabas … most Tayabeen and taba-tayabeen … born and died much earlier than start of these theological schools, still to think that what came later determined the Aqeedah of earlier Muslims is ridiculous … especially if one considers that Aqeedah of present day Musims is same as earlier Muslims … and if not, then Aqeedah of present day Muslims would be considered different than earlier Muslims and heresy.
Actually, Hasan Al-Basri (RA) was Tabayeen
Hasan Al-Basri (RA) student ‘Wasil ibn Ata’ from whom Mutazillah theological school started was taba-Tabayeen
Whereas those who started Ashari and Matruidi theological schools were neither Sahaba, tabayeen or Taba-Tabayeen.
Re: Non-Shias attending Shia majlises/milad- is it ok?
Peace Sa1eem
I'm not gonna write so much like you have ... I don't pretend I know things, but it is good that I see you have done some reading up on the Internet ... Learnt some new things ... But here I want to remove any blame you have given me.
1) I didn't say aqeedah = theology ... I said the schools of theology produce the aqeedah in English it would be called Creed. Just like the schools of fiqh produce ahkam, fatawa ...
2) Regarding fiqh ... It was my argument that said Deobandis, Barelvis and others are part of the group called Sunnis ... Not you ... You were saying the reverse. It was also I who said that aqeedah decides the criteria of being a sect or not ... Not the madhab that we follow.
3) Lastly if you had read my previous post you would have seen that I said the early Mu'tazila were not theological but political and they are who I accept as Muslim ... Much later the theological school who hijacked the name were later deemed as having deviant beliefs regarding Allah (SWT) and they were and are today Rationalists.
Re: Non-Shias attending Shia majlises/milad- is it ok?
The sentiments expressed in the above posts reflect natural human desire to have peace and tranquility in their lives and the world.
But we live in the real world – Who knows better than Allah Almighty and His Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) about human nature?
Our life in this world is temporary and our life in the Hereafter is forever. Success for Hereafter depends first of all on the Grace of Allah Almighty then our beliefs and deeds in this life of the world.
Allah Almighty knows about human nature and has warned us against sectarianism in the Blessed Quran
*And if thy Lord had willed, He verily would have made mankind one nation, yet they cease not differing, [11:118]
Save him on whom thy Lord hath mercy; and for that He did create them. And the Word of thy Lord hath been fulfilled: Verily I shall fill hell with the jinn and mankind together. [11:119]
Turn ye back in repentance to Him, and fear Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among those who join gods with Allah,- [30:31]
Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself! [30:32]
When trouble touches men, they cry to their Lord, turning back to Him in repentance: but when He gives them a taste of Mercy as from Himself, behold, some of them pay part-worship to other god’s besides their Lord,- [30:33]
As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did. 6:159]*
We should always keep in mind that accursed Iblis/Shaytaan who is avid and open enemy of mankind has vowed to avenge every member of mankind for his downfall.
This will be to lead Humans away from the true path set by Allah Almighty.
This is clearly stated in the Blessed Quran:
It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate. 7:11]
(Allah) said: “What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?” He said: “I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay.” 7:12]
(Allah) said: “Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures).” 7:13]
He said: “Give me respite till the day they are raised up.” 7:14]
(Allah) said: “Be thou among those who have respite.” 7:15]
He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way: 7:16]
“Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies).” 7:17]
(Allah) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee,- Hell will I fill with you all 7:18].
In his last Sermon the Blessed Prophet warned us about designs and schemes of the Shaytaan the accursed
O’ people! No Prophet would be raised after me and no new Ummah (would beformed) after you.
Verily I have left amongst you that which will never lead you astray, the Book of Allah, which if you hold fast you shall never go astray.
And beware of transgressing the limits set in the matters of religion, for it is transgression of (the proper bounds of) religion that brought destruction to many people before you.
Verily, the satan is disappointed at ever being worshiped in this land of yours, but he will be pleased by obedience in anything (short of worship that is) in matters you may be disposed to think insignificant, so beware of him in your matters of religion.
Behold! Worship your Lord; offer prayers five times a day; observe fast in the month of Ramadhaan; pay readily the Zakat (poor due) on your property; and perform pilgrimage to the House of God and obey your rulers and you will be admitted to the Paradise of your Lord
Following is hadith where be Blessed Prophet has warned us not to divert from his path. (Splitting Islam into sects)
"One day Prophet Muhammad PBUH), drew a line in the sand for them and said, “This is Allah’s path.” He then drew several lines to the right and to the left and said, “These are the paths [of misguidance] on each of which is a devil inviting people to follow it.” He then recited the verse: ‘Verily, this is my path, leading straight, so follow it. And do not follow the [other] paths for they will scatter you about from Allah’s path. That is His command to you in order that you may be conscious of Allah’ (Hadith by Ahmed).
The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) has foretold about Muslims splitting into numerous sects!
And whatever he has foretold must come to pass.
Anas bin Maalik (ra) narrated that The Messenger Muhammad (saw) said: “The people of bani Israel will be divided into 71 sects, and My Ummah will be divided into 73 sects, ALL are in hellfire, except one, that is Al Jama’ah.”[Sunan ibn Majah 3983, Kitab Al Fitan]
Hz. Ali bin Abu Talib (ra) has warned us about splitting into sects
Imam Ali bin Abu-Talib (r.a.) said: “The Messenger of Allah called me and told me: ‘You are alike with Jesus, Jews hated him till they slandered his mother, and Christians loved him till they put him in the position that is not for him.’ With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. Verily, I am not a prophet, and there is nothing revealed to me. But I work with the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of his Prophet ((may Peace Be Upon Him)) as much as I can. So whatever I have asked you in regard of obeying Allah, it is your duty to obey me whether you like it or not.”** [Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal]**
Following is the sermon of Hz. Ali bin Abu Talib (ra) from Nahjul Blagha were he has warned us about splitting into sects and has urged us to be with the “great majority”.
*“Certainly you are the most evil of all persons and are those whom Satan has put on his lines and thrown out into his wayless land. With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah’s hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf.”
Beware; whoever calls to this course, kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.* ** Partially Quoted from Nahjul Balagha Sermon 126**
Quoting the Blessed Quran again
And (know) that this is My path, the right one therefore follow it, and follow not (other) ways, for they will lead you away from His way; this He has enjoined you with that you may guard (against evil). [6:153]
So MM & rosedreams whether we like it or not sectarianism is there and will be there. We have to guard ourselves from it. We must state the Truth without demonizing the others. We must follow the straight path set by the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)
But then the Blessed Quran states:
Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself! [30:32]
May Allah Almighty guide us all to the straight path of success.
