Re: Non praying muslims
So you’re saying its possible to be a Muslim following one or two pillars? Acha. Are you sure?
We’re talking facts here, not personal opinions.
Re: Non praying muslims
Muslim Queen...if you take Shahada and believe Islam to be correct then however much you sin...you are still Muslim because you believe in Islam...We aren't perfect and human beings are flawed...you are sinful...you dont become non-muslim by not doing Salah...make sure you make that distinction...What makes you non Muslim is if you deny something clear cut from Islam...so you dont beleive in Salah for instance is a lot different from being lazy and not praying Salah...
And as for those speaking about where does it say this and that it the Quran...the Quran doesnt tell us how to pray...we learn that threw Hadeeth and various scholars who have analysed the Quran and Sunnah and come out with opinions...and there is a consensus that you should pray five times a day...there is just differentiation on how to pray...so Pakistanis who tend to follow Hanafi Fiqh will put their hands on their navel whilst Arabs who are Shafii will out their hands on their chest for instance...we are not scholars so please stop giving your DIY Ijtihad when people a lot more qualified than you and I already have a consensus opinion on the issue...
Re: Non praying muslims
these five are the pillars which are holding the tent of islam. if one of them goes down your tent goes bad shaped. But Nimaz is the centre pillar so u can see what is going to happen to your religion when the centre pillar is going to be removed. That shape of tent shows the shape of your islam. so it is clear as a glass now.
Re: Non praying muslims
On the authority of Ibn Omar:razi:, the son of Omar-e-Farooq bin Al-Khattab:razi: who said : I heared the messenger of Allah say :
“Islam has been built on five [pillars]: testifying that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammed is the messenger of Allah, performing the prayers, paying the zakat, making the pilgrimage to the House, and fasting in Ramadan.”
related by Bukhari and Muslim]
Anyone who outright denies this hadeeth is a** Munkir-e-Hadeeth**.
Anyone who says these are man-made pillar is ignorant to testify Muhammad:saw: words.
Re: Non praying muslims
Wrong. Shahada means nothing unless you live by it. And “however much you sin” would clearly mean one is not “believing” in Islam.
Re: Non praying muslims
Thank you.
Btw, is it just me or has there been a sudden rise in these Munkir-e-Hadeeth?
Re: Non praying muslims
lol. I love it when people start calling each other 'non-Muslim'.
Re: Non praying muslims
Point of the matter is, 5 times Salaat is compulsory, however not saying your prayers does not make you non-Muslim - probably less appreciated in the eyes of Allah, but not a kuffar.
Re: Non praying muslims
:k:
Re: Non praying muslims
Cat:
The meaning of ARABIC word Munkir is one who denies
so whoever denies a hadeeth to be a hadeeth is a munkir of it? what's so difficult about it or even why to feel offended on that? No one so far suggested that a munkir of hadeeth is a non-muslim. Did any one? :-)
anyway, my point was that a building is on the ground due to the pillars. If pillars fall, there will be no building. So, get the drift.
Conversely, if there are only pillars left then there is something called RUINS...
so having JUST the pillars means just RUINS ...
Re: Non praying muslims
queer just wanted to start a thread for fun and he got it from some but most got it right in my opinion...............queer did not ask question to make any point.
queer (she+he) finds the ways to start thread which are not meant to make any benefit to people.
it makes no difference to queer what answer she+he gets.
Having said that,for the sake of ALL OTHERS.......
A muslim will always be a muslim until he/she denies One God or Prophet (PBUH)..............thats the rule in Islam.
Now what happens next is also important and that is practicing the faith.
Its like you can be in the circle by saying the shahada but cannot get to the 'center' to get the high points unless you follow other rules!
Re: Non praying muslims
This is the precise jist of the intention behind the thread.
Re: Non praying muslims
Muslim Queen
That is your opinion it isnt a fact...it is the ideal situation...a the end of the day you are not Kaffir if you generally sin...if you commit certain sins then it can take you out of the fold of Islam...like if you beleive something from Islam to be incorrect for instance...however fornicators, drunkards, drug dealers etc can still be Muslim if they acknowledge their acts to be sins from Islam...belief is one thing...actions are another...you can believe in Islam but in you actions you might sin...it doesnt make you a non muslim it just makes you sinful...
Re: Non praying muslims
Sadiyah, your link also mentioned this:
*Question : *
The saheeh ahaadeeth state clearly that the one who neglects prayer is a kaafir. If we take the hadeeth at face value, it appears that we are obliged to deprive the person who neglects prayer deliberately of all his rights of inheritance, a separate cemetery should be allocated for such people, and we cannot pray for them or greet them with salaam, because there is no greeting of peace for a kaafir. Let us not forget that if we were to calculate the number of men, believers and non-believers alike, who pray, we will find it is only 6%, and among women the number is even less. What does Islam have to say about this? What is the ruling about giving or returning the greeting of salaam to one who neglects prayer?
*Answer :
*
Praise be to Allaah.
**
The scholars have differed concerning the Muslim who deliberately neglects salaah without denying that it is obligatory. Some of them say that he is definitely a kaafir who has gone beyond the pale of Islam. He is considered to be a murtadd (apostate) who is to be given three days to repent – if he does not, he is to be executed for his apostasy. The funeral prayer will not be recited over him, and he will not be buried in the Muslim graveyard. The greeting of salaam is not to be given to him, in life or in death, and his greeting is not to be returned; prayers for forgiveness and mercy for him cannot be offered; he cannot inherit, neither can his wealth be inherited,instead it is to be given to the Muslim treasury (bayt al-maal). This ruling applies whether the number of people who are neglecting their prayers are many or a few.
This opinion is the soundest and most correct, because of the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him):
“The difference between us and them is salaah. Whoever neglects it is a kaafir.” (Reported by Imaam Ahmad and the authors of Sunan with a saheeh isnaad);
and:
“(Nothing stands) between a man and kufr and shirk, except prayer: (whoever neglects it becomes a kaafir and a mushrik).”
(Reported by Imaam Muslim in his Saheeh, with other similar ahaadeeth).
**
Re: Non praying muslims
Ameen suma ameen! As always right on the money anu bhai!
When Allah ezo wajal and the most purest of creations hazrat Mohammed-e-mustapha :saw:] have given their rulings on any matter, we have no right to question it. So those questioning the salaat should drink some shut up juice.
Re: Non praying muslims
This is interesting...
*Question #5208: Neglecting prayer out of laziness
** Question : **
If you do not pray salat out of laziness on purpose, are you a kafir or just a bad Muslim? Please answer.
*Answer :
*
Praise be to Allaah.
**
Imaam Ahmad said that the one who does not pray because of laziness is a kaafir. This is the more correct view and is that indicated by the evidence of the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger, and by the words of the Salaf and the proper understanding. (Al-Sharh al-Mumti’ ‘ala Zaad al-Mustanqi’, 2/26).
Anyone who examines the texts of the Qur’aan and Sunnah will see that they indicate that the one who neglects the prayer is guilty of Kufr Akbar (major kufr) which puts him beyond the pale of Islam.
Among the evidence to be found in the Qur’aan is:
The aayah (interpretation of the meaning):
“But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism], perform As-Salaat (Iqaamat-as-Salaat) and give Zakaat, then they are your brethren in religion.” [al-Tawbah 9:11]
**
The evidence derived from this aayah is that Allaah defined three things that the Mushrikeen have to do in order to eliminate the differences between them us: they should repent from shirk, they should perform prayer, and they should pay zakaah. If they repent from shirk but they do not perform the prayer or pay zakaah, then they are not our brethren in faith; if they perform the prayer but do not pay zakaah, then they are not our brethren in faith. Brotherhood in religion cannot be effaced except when a person goes out of the religion completely; it cannot be effaced by fisq (immoral conduct) or lesser types of kufr.
Allaah also says (interpretation of the meaning):**
“Then, there has succeeded them a posterity who have given up As-Salaat (the prayers) * and have followed lusts. So they will be thrown in Hell. Except those who repent and believe (in the Oneness of Allaah and His Messenger Muhammad), and work righteousness. Such will enter Paradise and they will not be wronged in aught.” [Maryam 19:59-60]**
**
The evidence derived from this aayah is that Allaah referred to those who neglect the prayer and follow their desires, Except those who repent and believe, which indicates that at the time when they are neglecting their prayers and following their desires, they are not believers.
**
**
The evidence of the Sunnah that proves that the one who neglects the prayer is a kaafir includes the hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him):
“Between a man and shirk and kufr there stands his neglect of the prayer.”
(Narrated by Muslim in Kitaab al-Eemaan from Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)).
It was narrated that Buraydah ibn al-Husayb (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say:
‘The covenant that distinguishes between us and them is the prayer, and whoever neglects it has disbelieved (become a kaafir).’”
(It was narrated by Ahmad, Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi, al-Nisaa’i and Ibn Maajah).
What is meant here by kufr or disbelief is the kind of kufr which puts a person beyond the pale of Islam, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) made prayer the dividing line between the believers and the disbelievers.
It is known that the community of kufr is not the same as the community of Islam, so whoever does not fulfil this covenant must be one of the kaafireen (disbelievers).
**
There is also the hadeeth of ‘Awf ibn Maalik (may Allaah be pleased with him), according to which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:
“The best of your leaders are those whom you love and who love you, who pray for you and you pray for them. The worst of your leaders are those whom you hate and who hate you, and you send curses on them and they send curses on you.”
He was asked, “O Messenger of Allaah, should we not fight them by the sword?”
He said, “Not as long as they are establishing prayer amongst you.”
This hadeeth indicates that those in authority should be opposed and fought if they do not establish prayer, but it is not permissible to oppose and fight them unless they make a blatant show of kufr and we have evidence from Allaah that what they are doing is indeed kufr. ‘Ubaadah ibn al-Saamit said:
“The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) called us and we gave bay’ah (oath of allegiance) to him. Among the things that we pledged to do was to listen and obey him both when we felt enthusiastic and when we were disinclined to act, both at times of difficulty and times of ease, and at times when others were given preference over us, and that we would not oppose those in authority. He said: ‘unless they made a blatant show of kufr and you have evidence from Allaah that what they are doing is indeed kufr.’” (Agreed upon).
On this basis, their neglecting the prayer, for which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said we should oppose them and fight them by the sword, constitutes an act of blatant kufr for which we have evidence from Allaah that it is indeed kufr.
If someone were to say: is it not permissible to interpret the texts about a person who neglects prayer being a kaafir as referring to the one who neglects the prayer because he does not think it is obligatory?
We would say: it is not permissible to interpret the texts in this way because there are two reservations about this interpretation:
it involves ignoring the general description that the Lawgiver took into consideration and to which the ruling was connected. The ruling that the person who neglects prayer is a kaafir is connected to the action of neglecting prayer, not to his denial of it being obligatory. Brotherhood in religion is based on performing the prayer, not on whether a person declares it to be obligatory. Allaah did not say, “If they repent and state that the prayer is obligatory”, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not say “Between a man and shirk and kufr there stands his denial that the prayer is obligatory” or “The covenant that distinguishes between us and them is our statement that the prayer is obligatory, so whoever denies that it is obligatory has disbelieved.” If this is what Allaah and His Messenger had meant, then not stating it clearly would have contradicted what is said in the Qur’aan. For Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And We have sent down to you the Book (the Qur’aan) as an exposition of everything” [al-Nahl 16:89]
“And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad) the Dhikr [reminder and the advice (i.e. the Qur’aan)], that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them” [al-Nahl 16:44]
It is not correct to refer to a reason which the Lawgiver did not make a factor in ruling a person to be a kaafir, because if a person who does not have the excuse of ignorance denies that the five daily prayers are obligatory then he is deemed to be a kaafir, whether he prays or not. If a person performs the five daily prayers, fulfilling all the conditions of prayer and doing all the actions that are obligatory or mustahabb, but he denies that the prayers are obligatory with no valid reason for doing so, then he is a kaafir, even though he is not neglecting the prayers. From this it is clear that it is not correct to interpret the texts about neglecting the prayers as referring to denying that they are obligatory. The correct view is that the person who neglects the prayer is a kaafir who is beyond the pale of Islam, as is clearly stated in the report narrated by Ibn Abi Haatim in his Sunan from ‘Ubaadah ibn al-Saamit (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said:
**“The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) exhorted us:
‘Do not associate anything in worship with Allaah, and do not neglect the prayer deliberately, for whoever neglects the prayer deliberately puts himself beyond the pale of Islam.” **
Moreover, if we interpret the ahaadeeth about neglecting the prayer as referring to a denial that it is obligatory, there would be no point in the reports referring specifically to the prayer, because this ruling applies equally to zakaah, fasting and Hajj – whoever neglects any of these, denying that it is obligatory, is a kaafir, if he does not have the excuse of ignorance.
**
Just as the one who neglects the prayer is deemed to be a kaafir on the basis of the evidence of the texts and reports, so he may also be deemed to be a kaafir on the basis of rational analysis. How can a person be a believer if he neglects the prayer which is the pillar of religion, and when there are aayaat and ahaadeeth urging us to perform prayer which make the wise believer rush to do the prayer, and when there are aayaat and ahaadeeth warning against neglecting it, which make the wise believer scared to ignore the prayer? Once we have understood this, a person cannot be a believer if he neglects the prayer.
**
If a person were to say: can we not interpret kufr in the case of one who neglects the prayer as meaning a lesser form of kufr (kufr al-na’mah) rather than the kind of kufr which puts a person beyond the pale of Islam (kufr al-millah)? Or can we not interpret it as being less than Kufr Akbar (major kufr) and more like the kufr referred to in the ahaadeeth, “There are two qualities that exist among people which are qualities of kufr: slandering people’s lineage and wailing over the dead” and “Trading insults with a Muslim is fisq (immoral conduct) and exchanging blows with him is kufr”, etc.?
We would say that this interpretation is not correct for a number of reasons:
**
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) made prayer the dividing line between kufr and faith, between the believer and the disbeliever. This is where he drew the line, and the two things are quite distinct and do not overlap.
Prayer is one of the pillars of Islam, so when the person who neglects it is described as a kaafir, this implies the kind of kufr that puts a person beyond the pale of Islam, because he has destroyed one of the pillars of Islam. This is a different matter from attributing kufr to a person who does one of the actions of kufr.
There are other texts which indicate that the kufr of the one who neglects the prayer is the kind of kufr which puts a person beyond the pale of Islam, so what is meant here by kufr should be interpreted according to the apparent meaning, so as avoid contradictions between the texts.
**
The description of kufr in those ahaadeeth is different. Concerning neglecting the prayer, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Between a man and shirk and kufr.” Here the word kufr is preceded in the original Arabic by the definite article “al”, which indicates that what is referred to here is the reality of kufr. This is in contrast to the other ahaadeeth where kufr is referred to without the definite article, or in a verbal form, which indicates that this is a part of kufr or that the person has disbelieved by doing this action, but it is not the absolute kufr which places a person beyond the pale of Islam.
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in his book Iqtidaa’ al-Siraat al-Mustaqeem (p. 70, Al-Sunnah Al-Muhammadiyyah edn.), concerning the hadeeth of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)
““There are two qualities that exist among people which are qualities of kufr”:
“The phrase ‘which are qualities of kufr’ means that these two qualities which exist among people are qualities of kufr because they are among the deeds of kufr and they exist among people. But not everyone who has a part of kufr becomes a kaafir because of it, unless there exists in his heart the reality of kufr. Similarly, not everyone who has a part of faith becomes a believer because of it, unless there exists in his heart the essential reality of faith. So there is a distinction between kufr that is preceded [in the original Arabic] by the definite article “al”, as in the hadeeth ‘Between a man and shirk and kufr there stands nothing but his neglecting the prayer’, and kufr that is not preceded by the definite article but is used in an affirmative sense.’”
**
So it is clear that the person who neglects the prayer with no excuse is a kaafir who is beyond the pale of Islam, on the basis of this evidence. This is the correct view according to Imaam Ahmad, and it is one of the two opinions narrated from al-Shaafa’i, as was mentioned by Ibn Katheer in his tafseer of the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):
“Then, there has succeeded them a posterity who have given up As-Salaat (the prayers) * and have followed lusts” [Maryam 19:59]
Ibn al-Qayyim mentioned in his book Al-Salaah that it was one of the two views narrated from al-Shaafa’i, and that al-Tahhaawi narrated it from al-Shaafa’i himself.
This was also the view of the majority of the Sahaabah, indeed many narrated that there was consensus among the Sahaabah on this point. ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Shaqeeq said: the companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not think that neglecting any deed made a person a kaafir, apart from neglecting the prayer. This was reported by al-Tirmidhi and al-Haakim, who classed it as saheeh according to the conditions of (al-Bukhaari and Muslim). Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh, the well known imaam, said, It was reported with a saheeh isnaad from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that the one who neglects the prayer is a kaafir. This was also the view of the scholars from the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) until the present day: that the person who deliberately neglects the prayer with no valid excuse, until the time for that prayer is over, is a kaafir. Ibn Hazm said that it was reported from ‘Umar, ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf, Mu’aadh ibn Jabal, Abu Hurayrah and others among the Sahaabah. He said: “We do not know of any opposing view among the Sahaabah.” Al-Mundhiri narrated this from him in Al-Targheeb wa’l-Tarheeb, and added more names of Sahaabah: ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood, ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas, Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah and Abu’l-Dardaa’ – may Allaah be pleased with them. He said: apart from the Sahaabah, there are also Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh, ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Mubaarak, al-Nakha’i, al-Hakam ibn ‘Utaybah, Ayyoob al-Sakhtayaani, Abu Daawood al-Tayaalisi, Abu Bakr ibn Abi Shaybah, Zuhayr ibn Harb and others.
**
And Allaah knows best.
Reference: Risaalah fi Hukm Taarik al-Salaah (Paper on the ruling on one who neglects the prayer) by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen. (www.islam-qa.com)**
Re: Non praying muslims
Sorry to disappoint you, these so-called 5 pillars are not man made, rather identified pillars in Quran… may be you are arguing that Allah swt never said that praying salat is a “pillar”… I hope you really didn’t mean it though 
Re: Non praying muslims
something i posted here before…
Al Nawawi (d. 631H) writes in his commentary on Sahih Muslim (hadith #146): “As for one who abandons salah, if he denies that it is obligatory [to pray] then he is a disbeliever by consensus of the Muslims… [However] if he abandons it out of laziness whilst [still] believing in its obligation – as is the case with many people – then the scholars have differed in this regards. [Imam] Malik and [Imam] al Shafi’i and the majority of the predecessors (salaf) and those of later generations (khalaf) hold that he has not disbelieved but is a fasiq and is required to repent – if he repents [then fine], but if not the death penalty is applied as a capital punishment… And a group of the predecessors hold that such a person [who abandons prayer out of laziness whilst believing in its obligation] is a kafir [outright] and this has been reported from Ali ibn Abi Talib …] and it is one of two reports from Ahmed ibn Hanbal… [whilst] Abu Hanifah and a group of the people of Kufa …] hold that such a one is not a kafir, nor is he to be killed, but should be reprimanded and confined until he prays…”
Ibn Rushd (d. 595H) writes in Bidayat al-Mujtahid (translated as: The Distinguished Jurist’s Primer, Vol. 1, pp.98-99): “The opinion of those who say that he [who refuses to pray but doesn’t deny its obligation] should be executed …] is weak. They have nothing to rely on except for a weak qiyas al-shabah if that is possible here: that is, the comparison of prayer, the foremost command, with murder, the foremost prohibition. The term ‘kufr’ is literally applied to mean ‘denial’, and it is known that the person relinquishing the prayer is not [necessarily] denying [its obligatory status] unless he relinquishes it with such a belief… The decision by interpretation that his hukm [situation] is the hukm of a disbeliever cannot be taken, except through an evidence, for it is a hukm that has not been established by the law in a way that a decision can be based upon it directly.”
see the thread http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=172751