Non-Muslims and Shariah

Do the Non-Muslim citizens of Islamic Lands have to abide by the Shariah and be ruled by it?

As far as I know in the early days of Islam Christians and Jews had their own courts etc.

Also when we ruled Iberia the Jews under our protection lived by their own Halakha/Mitzvot…

I need to know because there’s some paranoid Americans on another site who think we camel-jockeys and sand-niggers are trying to subdue them to our Shariah when we ask for pre-prayer washing facilities, or the right to wear a beard or scarf.. They claim we’re a threat to their way of life.

Re: Non-Muslims and Shariah

^
Well, if anything that is different is a threat, then I suppose we are.

The answer is no, btw. Typically they have their own laws.

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What about if two Jews are caught having gay sex in a Islamic Land are they given the Shariah punishment? Or does the Rabbinical-Court of their own community decide their fate in accordance with Halakha (Jewish Shariah)?

I know the punishment is exactly the same in both religions but hypothetically speaking if it wasn't, which law would be applied to them?

What about alcohol? Are Non-Muslims allowed alcohol in an Islamic Land? I know we have breweries in Pakistan for Christians, Hindus, Sikhs and Zoroastrians but what has Shariah got to say about it?

Jews for example need alcohol for one of their religious rituals the Pesakh Seder meal where they are meant to drink four cups of wine.

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They would be stoned to death, as it is THEIR custom from the archaic Jewish system of belief...

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No need to think of such scenarios. There will not be any widespread practice of shariah law in the future.

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^^

We would need to discuss these scenarios and make the fundoos and the not so fundoos understand that implementing Sharia would lead to untold chaos..

Re: Non-Muslims and Shariah

^ Here is an article that discusses just that: http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html

Re: Non-Muslims and Shariah


Shariah, or some version of it is already being practiced in parts of Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan. Look at how it has elevated the status of these 3 countries. Mullah Shariah = death.

Re: Non-Muslims and Shariah


Lets first see if "Muslim" citizens can abide by the Shariah then we'll see if non-Muslims should/have/could/would.

Lets first establish the basics/core of what sharia is agreeable to all sect, even in one sect lets first be able to establish "moon-sighting" agreement and stick to it.

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Who is to decide What is shariah? Not the terrorist who call themselves mullahs and imams and other unholy names.

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:salam:

I bet no one here could explain Shariah in a nutshell? Yet we have people complaining about it and people supporting it. Does anyone know what they are talking about?

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Bro, if you think you can explain what “shariah” is, in such a way that people agree with you, I am ALL EARS (or eyes in this case :))

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We need an organization of educated islamic scholars, professors, historians, scientists, law makers to fully understand sharia law and how it can be implemented in the 21st century

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I was looking forward to a nice discussion. Someone knocking on the door.

Lets start from the basics. Now I know your exception to hadith but go along with me for now.

The basic requirements to be a muslim are:

1 - Belief in Allah SWT
2 - Belief in Muhammad SAW and him being the last messenger
3 - Belief in Quran.
4 - Belief in all the past prophets and messengers, books and angels.
5 - Belief in pre-destination and judgement day.

This forms the core belief of a muslim and requires not system of law to implement.

Now to be a practicing muslims we need to be performing:

1 - Prayers
2 - Zakat
3 - Jihad (I am not refering to fighting or wars here).

These above mentioned points form the basis of any muslim character or system. If we agree on this then we can go forward. I often think muslims when they talk about shariah are trying to build a system when they do not even know what material to use for its foundations. These things form the foundation for any Islamic thought, institution or governance.

Re: Non-Muslims and Shariah

1) check
2) check
3) check
4) Belief in past prophets and messengers (there were countless), messages and controlling-forces/angels, check
5) depends on your definition... if you mean the logical outcome of one's actions, and that humanity will eventually accept the divine truth, then yes, check
6) freedom/protection of belief for those who do not agree

Basic requirements:
1) Salaat (your definition: sunni/shia form of prayer, mine: following divine commands which includes prayers with no restriction on how to perform them)
2) Zakaat (your definition: 2.5% annual charity, mine: purification of the self, which includes charity as described in the Quran as "give away in charity ... the excess")
3) check

That I think would be "Shariah" but yes I know we disagree on some issues :)

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Only in the mind of those who hate Islam and it’s principles. Why should Muslims give one hoot about what non-Muslims think? The world is just as murky from the perspective of the pond, out.

There is an inherit bigotry here presuming Muslims are incapable of implementing Shariah in such a way that it can’t be coherent or functional; and so need to rely on systems of justice external to their history and culture.

Of outsiders are going to have this perspective. It’s when Muslims pay mindshare to people who hate their culture and religion when things get really bad for Muslims.

When one looks at the long and tormented history of the Western justice system, we see all was not at all rosey from the onset. It was a process.

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Oh chillax bro, that is not Shariah. Those are the foundations on which a system is built, which can be called Shariah. My intention was to first identify the building blocks of Shariah.

For carrying on the discussion I will not delve into the differences we have but briefly comment on them.

5 & 6 - Let us for simplification say that if you do wrong you deserve wrong whether you get it in this world through the judiciary or in the next world. Logical outcome of one actions as relative to the knowledge of actions. The more knowledge we have the more we can guage the outcome of actions. Allah SWT has infinite knowledge compared to us thus he can guage the outcomes of our actions which we cannot all the time.

Salaat - Mine is ritual form along with devotion and understanding. Yours is just devotion and understanding. Lets say there is something called prayer that we establish whether you do it in the masjid as ritual or free form but the point that we have masjids for prayer.

Zakat - Lets just say charity and not consider amounts yet. First we need to agree on the principle of giving charity and the reasons for it.

Ok all this said, these simple actions and beliefs are what evolve into institutions that represent them in some way, shape or form. Shariah is not just a system of laws but it includes the embodiment our very belief, ways to excercise that belief and a system to implement those beliefs. This to me is its essence.

We further need to divide our responsibilities to Allah SWT and to our fellow humans and to our fellow muslims.

I would further categorize as:

1 - Acts of worship and obedience (first and foremost prayer, seeking Allah SWT pleasure etc)
2 - Acts of justice (jihad etc)
3 - Acts of self preservation (prayer, education, supplications etc)
4 - Acts of community preservation (charity, education, obedience to law, justice towards minorities etc)
5 - Acts which propagate the message (Dawah, justice, humanitarian aid, trade, business, research etc)

Does it look like we are taking the simple principles and shaping them into a bigger structure now that embodies the way we live. Feel free to add where to think necessary. Can we go further? What I am trying to do is take a seed of a principle or belief or action and grow a tree with different branches which all embody the existence of that seed of faith.

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Why the venom toward non-Muslims with accusations of bigotry and hatred? My view would be the same to any person of any religion who thought that it is possible in today's day and age to implement a religious state government. It is outdated. Past its prime. Proven wrong. There is a reason theocracies are in the dustbin of history.

No, westesrn justice systems aren't perfect and yes, they have been developing over time. But you are talking about a system that has not been functional in centuries. Since that time there has been a little something called democracy that has become the predominant form of government, futher diminishing any chance of the theocracy making a comeback.

When shariah law was successful, there wasn't any competing forms of government to challenge it. Today things are quite the opposite of that, making it even less likely we'll see shariah law in our lifetime.

Muslims today are more secular and spread across the globe than in any time in the past, further diminishing any chance they'd be willing to go back to an Islamic state with shriah law.

Today, there is no consensus whatsoever on what constitutes shariah law. The few modern examples - Afghanistan, Nigeria, Sudan - demonstrate how brutal and barbaric the interpretation can be. Meaning there is widespread opposition across the world, not only with non-Muslims.

So your victimhood claim of "...when Muslims pay mindshare to people who hate their culture and religion when things get really bad for Muslims" is off base. #1 - doubters of shariah law does not necessitate a hatred of Islam or its culture (seeing how it is not even part of Islamic culture) and #2 - Muslims don't need to pay heed to non-Muslims for things to get really bad for Muslims.

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Venom? It's fact.

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My view would be the same to any person of any religion who thought that it is possible in today's day and age to implement a religious state government. It is outdated.

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I know of no single person who takes Islam seriously on the one hand, and thinks that in NO way shape or form religion should influence how a state is run, or how laws are implemented. I care not to go into details, or talk about specific cases, as secularism is the negation of ANY possibility of religion being involved in the business of the state.

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Past its prime. Proven wrong. There is a reason theocracies are in the dustbin of history.

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Shrugs...systems of governance that incorporated Islam were hardly theocratic; again this is speaking from the experiences of a particular civilization, where there was a set Chruch that was competing with states for power.

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But you are talking about a system that has not been functional in centuries.

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Well no big deal, as whatever system is currently in place is hardly functioning either.

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Since that time there has been a little something called democracy that has become the predominant form of government, futher diminishing any chance of the theocracy making a comeback.

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This little thing called democracy is systematically side-stepped whenever people who disagree with the major power broker in the world come close to power. With the so-called champion of democracy's full blessing. Spare me.

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When shariah law was successful, there wasn't any competing forms of government to challenge it. Today things are quite the opposite of that, making it even less likely we'll see shariah law in our lifetime.

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What is in place already is infused with Shariah. It's simply in a state of denial...and so is more dysfunctional as a result. The competing forms of governance simply don't translate well...so we have capitlistic totalitarianism of Asia replacing Western liberalism.

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Muslims today are more secular and spread across the globe than in any time in the past, further diminishing any chance they'd be willing to go back to an Islamic state with shriah law.

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This makes no sense; if anything Muslim experiments with secularism have been abysmal disasters, nothing short of continuing colonial legacies. We see this in Pakistan, Egypt, Malaysia, and so on.

What Sharia is, is not the point; the point is that Muslims are hardly gravitating to a secular model...and where there is secularism it seems to be enforced by the state military. For God's sake, the Turkish political system was brought to crisis because of a Hijab wearing wife. Wow. What a model.

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Today, there is no consensus whatsoever on what constitutes shariah law.

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Don't think there needs to be, and indeed wherever there is disagreement it's over a handful of things. It's simply laughable to suggest that for the most part, a consensus can't be reached. It simply requires a culture to engage the subject; and that takes only a small amount of time to foster.

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The few modern examples - Afghanistan, Nigeria, Sudan - demonstrate how brutal and barbaric the interpretation can be. Meaning there is widespread opposition across the world, not only with non-Muslims.
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Then there is Saudi, Pakistan, Iran, Malaysia, Egypt (all implement Shariah to some degree) etc. where MUSLIMS for the most part don't really care about the nature of the law or how it's implemented. Minus corruption, et. all...but then, that's an admitted problem not a facet of the system.

We have problems; inter-sect, inter-racial...Shariah ain't one of them. Only Islam-haters who reduce Shariah to a few issues have a problem with it.

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doubters of shariah law does not necessitate a hatred of Islam or its culture (seeing how it is not even part of Islamic culture)

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If one hates Shariah law as a concept (regardless of any particular interpretation) without suggesting an alternative, i.e. want to abolish it...then yeah, they hate Islam. Period. Again, it's the idea of Shariah in it's most abstract...not any particular form.

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and #2 - Muslims don't need to pay heed to non-Muslims for things to get really bad for Muslims.
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The point was, only an idiotic Muslim would put priority of care with what a non-Muslim thinks about the subject.

Re: Non-Muslims and Shariah


I think we have been through this before... from what I understand, God needs no pleasure from your worship; pleasure is a human emotion. You are only pleasing your own psyche by assuming God is pleased through rituals. He has shown you a message to improve your state of living by following closely (salaat) his commands as given in his message and bringing forth the purification (zakaat), to excel in life and to strive at your level best for it (sabbihulahu), whether it be the best of times or the worst of times. You can only do that by serving humanity... that is worship!