Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

This is a serious discussion thread. Please refrain from posting derogatory comments.

There are many non-desis that are members of Gupistan, I would like to know their views on Ummah, and Muslims in post 9/11. The non-desis provide their views unfortunately the counter arguments that are provided by desis turn it into a pissing match.
For instance in the west there is no concept of this big Christian Kingdom or for that matter the “Elders of Zion theory”. So when non-desis see, read, hear Ummah concept what do they think (in seriousness).
Why I ask this question is two fold.
a: I was doing some reasearch and came across Institute of Policy Studies (Pakistan) and was surprised that almost all publications had somehow inserted the islamic angle to it.
b: I was reading PCGs Islamic Scholar thread and saw some responses with links to Ummah concept. That was impressive that a non desi had shown interest and provided links to information the she sought compared to desis that did not bother to provide.

Once again serious responses only. Lets act as adults for once.

Edit: This doesn’t mean that desi’s cant contribute or comment, lets keep it at serious levels.

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

VZ,

The Ummah today is a roaring contradiction to me. Let me explain.

1) I have posted here many time the fact that most Muslim deaths come at the hands of other Muslims. But there seems to be a universal code of silence that does not allow one Muslim to criticize another. Muslims deaths at the hands of another Muslim are a huge taboo topic that defies the concept of "Ummah".

2) I believe there is a great political awakening among Muslims. The awareness of a Persons "Muslim-ness", and the emotional connection is growing. The problem is that people don't know how to effectively channel the "feelings" they have for the plight of other Muslims. To some degree, I see a huge herd mentality, and a fear of speaking out or being a dissenter among Muslims. When I go to the religion forum, any dissent is immediately countered by someone slapping the dissenter back into line, and then essentially calling him an "outcast" and quetioning his faith if he does not immediately fall back into line. A healthy Ummah would encourage a lively debate, and a diversity of opinions.

3) Despite very organized Mosques, there is very little coordinated activity among the mosques. CAIR is sometimes a load o' crap, yet is the leading political voice for Muslims in the US. Compared to the Catholics, the Jews, the Religious Right, or even the Mormons, Muslims do not yet behave as if there is an effective Ummah.

4) The concept of "Ummah" is heavily politicized, particualrly by some Pakistani political parties. This sort of defies a "walk before you can run" concept. This is the way it goes: Person in support of Ummah points out some horrible happening in the world, then suggests this would not happen if there was an "Ummah". Groan.

5) Despite what Muslims might think, the idea of an ummah is threatening to the rest of the world. Despite what you would like to beleive, the LAST Ummah, the Ottoman Empire, may have been cool for Muslims, but all others were second class citizens. If Islamic political thought is to progress, the treatment of minorities in Muslim counties must change radically.

6) The Idea of a Theorcratically run country or region is a total double standard. For the most part, Muslims worldwide want totally equal rights for Muslims in sectarian lands, but they are perfectly comfortable with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, and a Theocratically run Iran. Thus far there is no good example of a well run Islamic country that is a replicable example for political change around the world. Further, OBL, and the tacit support and understanding he has scares the crap out of westerners, (As well as asians and hindus I might add). The fact that all over the world, Muslims seem to be fighting someone, (don't yell at the messenger here folks), does more to disprove that Muslims are able to peacefully coexist in the world.

&) Lastly, the awakening of Islam is such an all consuming desire for some Muslims, that Muslims forget that leading is always done by example. Science technology, productivity, economics, culture and other affairs must lead the way, and if the Ummah is to succeed, it must be proven to be a far superior political ideology. On paper communism sounds great! Equal ownership for all! It proved to be a thin veil for tyrants who shouted some slogans and ruled with an iron fist. I see nothing but the same behavior among the Taliban for example. Muslims must show small scale successes in political rule before trying to unite 1.2 Billion Muslims.

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

This is something that is debated endlessly in my household.

The word we agree on seems to be utopian.

I am Catholic and we are all united through the centralization of our church in Rome and with the Pope. Politically, we think for ourselves, but morally, our cues are taken from the Vatican. So a united religious people is a possibility.

My husband is Sunni and Muslim. He believes a person should be judged through his works and the person they are first. But he also doesn't believe Arab Muslims are the same as Pakistani Muslims. I confront him on this bias every once in a while, he tries to temper it because he knows it is wrong, but it is there.

I read all the time (on this board and in other places) comments people make of Shiite vs. Sunni, African vs. Middle Eastern vs. Asian, American Muslim vs. the rest of the world.

I see no cohesion or respect among Muslims in different sects or nationalities. Personally in order for "Ummah" to be achieved, all must think of each other as brothers and sisters, or the Ummah will have no strength.

One fifth of the world's population in 57 countries is Muslim, that is a lot of power and voice but only if it is united.

Sigh reading over what you wrote, I am hoping that I didn't miss the point. I'm sorry if I did and again this is only a personal opinion.

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

Babybell, the concept of Ummah is as much of a pipe dream as the concept of khilafah. An anachronistic musing that has no real world basis of occuring. Umah in itself is a static concept. Religion is only one aspect of defining similarities of differences among people. It cannot supercede or submit to another attribute like culture or social or economic standing.

The result is the rampant confusion among the muslims community as to determine a bloc on a concept that has failed to unite from the very beginning.

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

minah_Pa:This is exactly what I am looking for serious responses. I am glad that you shared your point of view. But help me understand one thing. You are of the opinion that it Ummah is possible but since there is no cohesiveness, its not achievable yet?
One more thing that I would like to comment on is that you mention that catholics are united, but based on personal observation the irish catholics dont really get along with roman catholics (basically italians) in U.S. So while they may be united under the vatican there are subtle difference of opinions, not religious more cultural perhaps, but they are united from a religious stance.

OG: That is an excellent response, exactly what I was hoping to read.
You leave me speechless.

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

whats the connection with ummah and 9/11?

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

not much. He just likes sticking 9/11 with every issue.

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

Here is the connection no one really cared about Ummah concept prior to 9-11. It is after 9/11 that people started hearing Ummah. Prior to 9/11 this word was collecting dust.

MaMooli if you have something +ve to add please do so, Otherwise PM me with your gripes. I would like to keep this thread for serious responses. Thank you.

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

I am Irish Catholic and I grew up in an OLD world Italian Catholic neighborhood. The rituals they have in their Church (St. Bartholomew's parrish - the parrish I grew up in) are more elaborate than the ones in ours, but basically the same as Irish Catholic (St. Patrick's parrish - my families church). Catholic is Catholic. The differences were as you said more cultural than religious.

I think it is possible, but the Muslim people need a strong leader with credibility. I think it can be achieved, but not anytime soon.

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

You are very confused.
it was after 9/11 that most people found out there were such things as Arabs and Moslems etc. The word and concept of Umma has been around for 100s of years. It is only widely heard after something to do with Islam shows up. Doesnt mean it was not always present.

As for your 9/11 connection.It still makes no sense. Serious discussion indeed, but it has to be relative otherwise you cant get answers unless of course your aim is at a specific angel.

your other flaw. the desi vs the non desi. Not all desis have one agenda or belief.same goes for the non desis.

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

I think thats exactly what I said. People in the west didn't care or knew about Ummah till after 9/11 so that is the link, however lets not get tangled up in semantics. If Minah_pa and OG can answer I am sure people that need to add their comments will.

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

When you say nobody cared, I hope you meant non-muslims in the west, if this is right then what you are saying is right. 9/11 created an upsurge in the western world about Islam and many Islamic jargons, especially words like Shria, Hadood and Ummah and so many others.
In the Islamic world these words have the same meaning ever since they were introduced Islamicaly by the Prophet(pbuh) and today its still hold very high meaning. The concept of Ummah and Khilafah have been very well explained by Muslim Scholars of the early 20th century, the time when nationalism was taking its roots in most of the Muslim world. I think Allama Muhammad Iqbal(Subcontinent), Sayed Qutab (Greater Syria) and Hasan Albana (Egypt) are a very good read on these subjects. The failure of the modern national governments (of early 20th century) to work on any sort of cooperation based on Islam has further derailed the concept of Ummah. The early theme of coperation was against monarchy’s and then purely based on Arab nationalism. But I am still hopeful, as long as there is this concept of Wilaya (State) they can ultimately unite.

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

sandy - I think the connection is this somewhat. The Muslim people would have more of a say in World politics and in the policies of even America. Right now, it is easy to overlook a collective voice that has no unity or direction.

These are just a small examples, not going to get into the larger political things. The Jews managed to have a united and collective voice and now there are Jewish holidays that are observed and are given with pay. Can you say the same about Eid or about Ramadan? I work in an educational enviroment and I asked about Ramadan and the athletes we have. There are no policies in place. African-Americans are 13% of the population in America

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=01000US&-qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_QTP5&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&-_lang=en&-_sse=on

and yet we have a whole month (Feb) put aside for African American history. Because as a collective group they lobbied for change and got it.

Why can’t it also eventually happen for the Muslim people?

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

OG, I almost agree with most of you points especially the one concerning the current status of Muslims. But I think you are mixing the two concepts of Ummah and Khilafah together. An Ummah has to be ultimately united but there is no condition that it should be done under one Khilafah, the Islamic history tells us otherwise. The unity among the Ummah can be achieved through other means as well. The Ottomans had the Khilafah, but states in western Africa, central Asia and subcontinent were not under the Ottoman rule, they had their own kings but they still recognized the Khilafah.

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

I am sort of confused about the concept of the ummah. To my understanding, the idea of the ummah is that all Muslims belong to a single community. My own perception of Islam is that it can much more readily be compared to christianity than it can be compared to Catholicism. By that I mean that Christianity is like a tree with many different branches. Catholicism is not a tree in and of itself but it is rather a branch of the tree of Christianity. The differences between, Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, Christian Scientists, Mormons, and Anglicans means that each of these derivations of Christianity would have its own community. It would not be a very effective or close knit community if you tried to create only a single community encompassing them all.

Islam, to my perception, supports many different branches as well. (Shias, Sunnis, Wahhabis, and what not). It's hard to ignore the differences and force all branches into one unified community.

Further, my perception is that the ummah concept also starts from a proposition that Islam is a way of life as much as it is a religion. Because of that, the ummah is not just viewed as a spiritual community. The answers to both religious and what most non-Muslims would view as secular questions derive from the community/ummah. I think its impractical and unrealistic to have a single community ministering in this sense to over 1.5 billion people living all over the world.

The Pope can minister to the spiritual needs of his huge flock. But the political, legal, social, educational, and domestic challenges for Poland, Mexico, Colombia, Spain, and Argentina (all over 90% Catholic) are quite different one from the other. These countries could only be a single community in the broader sense if one were to appeal and focus upon the least common denominator.

So too are the issues and problems facing Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia, Iraq, the Gulf States, etc. different by virtue of geography, natural resources, population, geopolitics, etc.

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

Not really verizon. I have personally attended many a lectures of Dr. Israr Ahmed where he talked about Khalifa and one Ummah. Mind you, this was back in 80’s (83-89). Just because you were not aware of it …or to put it more bluntly, just because the westeren media had not manipulated these concepts as a propganda, does not mean that it was not talked about.
P.S. I will enlighten you with my views (my gori wife’s views later on) :slight_smile:

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

Kaleem thats fine that you attended you are a muslim and a desi. The word/concept "Ummah" while popular and known in muslim world, was not a common term that was used; maybe in think tanks, seminars but an average non-desi was not aware of the term. I'll be interested to hear your familial views.

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

MiniMe,

I think you are right, I have a hard time drawing a bright line where the concept of Ummah ends, and the concept of a Khilifah begins. To some degree, the politicization of Islam leaves the whole continuum open, so all possibilites need to be considered. There are certainly those who would use the Ummah as a rational for the Khilifah.

If the Ummah is the global interconnectedness of Muslims, and the Khilifah is the global political structure, then the word global must be the common denominator. And it is clear that fighters roving from Saudi to Kashmir to Afghanistan to Iraq to Chechnya represent a loose form of a global military. So the concept of a globally bound Islamic body seems to be an amorphous reality. The question is how do Westerners percieve this, and what do they do about it? My gut reaction is that they are a little disturbed by the possibility of dealing with a political movement with no obvious head. Without Islamic leadership, Al Jazeera has more power than any human representative. Who do we negociate with? Who do we compromise with? At this point dealing with the Ummah is impossible, except in the media and the world of perception.

(note, I can't believe that I have passed 4,000 posts here. I wanna plaque)

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

I 100% agree with your gut feeling here, the Muslim are also asking the same questions for the last 81 years that who is representing them spiritually & politically.
:insha: (God Willing) I will be posting some very basic stuff about the concept of Ummah in Islam, may be that will clear some confusion.

Re: Non-Desi View on Ummah post 9/11

^^ MiniMe that will be great, but you've already answered my ? in #19.
While the concept might be great but it is not feasible to implement Ummah in modern times. The naysayers can read OGs opening thread for my reasoning.