Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
brother inclusion of cousins makes sense as blood relatives but wives hardly qualify for it
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
Brother Das Reich - I am not trying to teach you Arabic but you must understand that in Arabic language, and you can ask any Arab kid about this, ‘Ahlul Bayt’ means ‘people of the household’ and in this context meaning the blessed household of the Prophet (saw).
In all the societies and cultures of the world wife/wives is/are ‘part and parcel’ of man’s household.
The above is confirmed by the language of Quran and words spoken by the blessed Prophet (saw).
Sunnis in complete variance to the view of the Shias do take wife/wives to be part and parcel of man’s family.
And being a Sunni I do take my dear mother to be part of my dad’s household. Not being personal, surely, you too, must be taking your dear mother to be from among your dad’s household.
Got the following info for your reading from the Net:
*Meaning of the Phrase Ahlul Bayt
Response
Before I take on the verse under consideration, I would want to say that Quran was revealed in the Arabic language. In that language, the meaning of the terms ‘Ahlul Bayt’ (أَهْلَ الْبَيْت) and ‘Ahl-i-Bayt’ (أَهْلِ بَيْت) should be taken into consideration, and then that meaning be applied while interpreting these verses.
‘Ahl’ (أَهْل) in Arabic implies a meaning along the lines of ‘people’ and ‘Bayt’ (بَيْت) stands for a ‘house’.
The terms ‘Ahlul Bayt’ (أَهْلَ الْبَيْت) and ‘Ahl-i-Bayt’ (أَهْلِ بَيْت) are both consruct states (also known as ‘اضافه’, i.e. genitive) according to basic Arabic grammar rules. The only difference between these two terms is ‘Al’ (ال) that comes with ‘bayt’ ‘بَيْت’ in the first phrase. ‘Al’ (ال) is a definite article translating to ‘the’ in English. So while ‘bayt’ (بَيْت) would mean ‘a house’, ‘alBayt’ (الْبَيْت) would mean ‘the house’. Given this information, basic Arabic rules dictate the meaning of the phrase ‘Ahlul Bayt’ (أَهْلَ الْبَيْت) as “people of the house”, while the phrase ‘Ahl-i-Bayt’ (أَهْلِ بَيْت) would mean ‘people of a house’.
In the Arabic language, this phrase, as apparent from its meaning, is used commonly to represent those who live in one’s house, i.e. people of the house. Now if we look at all the three verses that have been discussed so far (Hud 11:73, Al-Qasas 28:12 and Al-Ahzab 33:33) the context clearly shows that this phrase has been used for people who lived in the houses of each of the subjects under discussion. In my previous response, I quoted these verses in order to clarify the meaning of this phrase using the Quran, irrespective of why it was used for the ladies. As you shall see, this phrase in the other two verses really only means people living in the houses:
•In Hud 11:73, the phrase “people of the house” (i.e. a house under discussion) is used for Abraham’s wife who lived in the house of Abraham, thus his ‘people of the house’.
•In Al-Qasas 28:12, the phrase “people of a house” (i.e. people in some house) is used as an expression to indicate a lady who can nourish prophet Moses (pbuh).
As a result, when one looks at 33rd verse of Al-Ahzab, one sees that the phrase ‘people of the house’ is used in the context where the entire discussion is directed at prophet Muhammad (pbuh)'s wives.
In this context when this phrase appears, there is no doubt that it refers to the ‘people of the house’ of prophet Muhammad (pbuh). In my previous responses, I have tried to clarify that it is not possible to exclude the wives of the prophet, because no matter what, they cannot be excluded from ‘people of the house’ since it is a historical fact that prophet’s wives used to live with the Holy Prophet (pbuh).
In addition to that, this verse is preceded by verses that address prophet Muhammad (pbuh)'s wives and comes in the same context. Furthermore, it starts with the phrase “and stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore” and in the same very verse, the phrase ‘people of the house’ is used. It is beyond any doubt in my mind that this phrase can only refer to his wives.
يَا نِسَاء النَّبِيِّ لَسْتُنَّ كَأَحَدٍ مِّنَ النِّسَاء إِنِ اتَّقَيْتُنَّ فَلَا تَخْضَعْنَ بِالْقَوْلِ فَيَطْمَعَ الَّذِي فِي قَلْبِهِ مَرَضٌ وَقُلْنَ قَوْلًا مَّعْرُوفًا
O wives of the Prophet! you are not like any other of the women; If you will be on your guard, then be not soft in (your) speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease yearn; and speak a good word." (Quran 33:32)
وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلَا تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ الْأُولَى وَأَقِمْنَ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتِينَ الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِعْنَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا
And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying. (Quran 33:33)
Whether the address in other verses to prophet Abraham (pbuh)'s wife or prophet Moses (pbuh)'s mother is made as wives or as mothers of prophets is not really relevant since the entire discussion is around understanding the meaning of the phrase ‘Ahlul Bayt’ (أَهْلَ الْبَيْت), which in any case refers to the ladies living in a house.
Consequently, in my opinion, these are not related to the discussion at all. In addition, even if they are related, the opinion cited therein is the opinion of the commentators, neither supported by Quran nor by Arabic grammar. Furthermore, the commentator has not provided a reason as to how they arrived at their conclusion. Unless such a reason is put forth, and can be judged critically from all aspects, it would be not be reasonable to accept it as decisive.
I would also like to add a caveat that in this discussion, I am not implying that people other than the wives of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) are necessarily excluded from the ‘people of the house’. However, my main argument is around the fact that wives of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) are really implied by the phrase ‘people of the house’ in verse 33rd verse of Al-Ahzab and are the thus its prime addressees, and that is what I have tried to explain above.
Brother Omer I am not engaging you in any confrontation but I am getting to learn a lot out of these discussions. Based on my research of the Islamic history there are so many discrepancies and contradictions that I can’t imagine muslims ever getting united, which is a shame. Because Islam is truly a beautiful religion, we just have to open our eyes and ears, read the Quran not for the sake of reading, but understand it and follow the sunnah of our holy prophet. I also recommend to read the history of Islam and understand what has transpired and surely Allah will guide us towards the right path.
I deeply respect your kind thoughts and I completely agree with you that one should continue to discuss as long as it keeps adding to their knowledge. In the end what you are going to believe in should be decided by you on the basis of merit of arguments that you come across, keeping in mind that our loyalty should lie with the Almighty only, and not with what we believe. If you arrive at the conclusion that Imams are to be followed, then you should believe in that. At the same time, however, if you find that that is the wrong belief, then there should be nothing in the world stopping you from rejecting what you think as against the law of God. It must work both ways.
I agree that Quran must be read with open eyes, with complete understanding, and when we study Quran, we should be free of all our biases. A friend of mine once suggested, and it was a great suggestion, that by default assume whatever you know may be wrong. Then either prove it or disprove it using Quran, and take that to be the truth. I am not sure whether you will like this suggestion or not, but I think the toughest part in most people’s lives is to move their allegiance and devotion from their own set of beliefs towards God. It seems trivial in practice but I do not think that it really is. Often the difference between the two is confused and we are unable to do justice to the law of God.*
You can read further from the links below:
**Discussion Regarding Ahlul Bayt ** http://www.omeriqbal.com/a/58
Ahlul Bayt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahlul_Bayt
I appeciate and understand the difficulty of changing one’s entreched views. It is very difficult.
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
i stand more wise by the quality of discussion, really nice post ibn Sadique
The people being addressed are clear from the context, i do not know if still there is some doubt on the basis of some hadiths while Quran is so explicit.
Someone buys the argument or not his choice, but if i had any doubts, they are cleared. Thanks Brother
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
IN HOLY QURAN ALLAH FORBIDS : DO NO SAY DIED TO THOSE WHO MARTYRS IN THE WAY OF ALLAH, THEY ARE LIVE AND I AM PROVIDING "RIZQ" TO THEM AS I PROVIDE TO YOU.
INSTEAD OF CTICISING OTHERS ,START REAL RESEARCH TO HUNT THE REALITY
Please do not write in upper case unnecessarily. It is considered rude. Thank you.
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
the Quran makes use of word ahl-e-bait for the wives…
in surah ahzaab, it is the wives of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) who r addressed as ahl-e-bait…
and in other places wife of Ibrahim (as) is also called ahl-e-bait…
why is it so hard to digest this???
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
^you know what the wives did after the Prophet(pbuh) that is why “it is so hard to digest”
http://www.al-islam.org/wilayat/6.htm
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
and in other places wife of Ibrahim (as) is also called ahl-e-bait....
why is it so hard to digest this????
I would like to know
(With all due respect)
1. how do you know for sure 33:33 ayah; used the word of ahl-ebait for the wives?
2. How do muslims know the meaing of ayah in quran in general? what is the critertia/rule/quide lines?
Many thanks
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
Rush
i think you can see that 33:32 is starting with O' Women (wives) of the prophet & verse 33 starting with "and' and continuing with the discussion. This has been clearly explained by the Ibn Sadique above. & if you say the subject has changed between the verses than how can the order, "stay quietly in the houses" be given to Ahl-e-Bait which include three men & only one women. If they understood it like what you are projecting than why did they not stay in their houses quietly. Even the next ayat has said about reciting the verses recited to you in your homes.
Either you are traslating in some very different words or it is self evident
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
Brother** Das Reich **– The link above given by you is a Shia site – so has to be prejudiced.
Just like you cannot expect a Brahmin to state the benefits of eating meat, even though he may be indulging himself so at the local kebab shop.
Now to the serious part.
I am sure that you will agree that Rasool Allah (saw) was/is the most pure of the Pure. I know that you do.
Read the following ayah of the Quran
“Women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity.”(Quran 24:26)
Don’t you think that Rasool Allah (saw) will follow the above command and marry none but the most pure?
You got to ponder deep.
Read the following advice from Rasool Allah (saw).
“A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, for her rank, for her beauty, and for her religion (and character), so marry the one who is best in the religion and character and prosper.” (Bukhari and Muslim)
Do you not think that Rasool Allah (saw) will follow his own advise to the word?
You got to ponder deep.
Remedy for indigestion
The cure to the type of indigetion that you have is to accept all the members of the ‘house-hold of Rasool Allah (saw)’ and not the select few to meet the demands of one’s beliefs.
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
[QUOTE]
Rush
i think you can see that 33:32 is starting with O' Women (wives) of the prophet & verse 33 starting with "and' and continuing with the discussion. This has been clearly explained by the Ibn Sadique above. & if you say the subject has changed between the verses than how can the order, "stay quietly in the houses" be given to Ahl-e-Bait which include three men & only one women. If they understood it like what you are projecting than why did they not stay in their houses quietly. Even the next ayat has said about reciting the verses recited to you in your homes.
Either you are traslating in some very different words or it is self evident
[/QUOTE]
I am NOT translating ANY thing, I am confused and trying to understand/know the basic way/rule/guide lines used by muslims to understand the meaning of ayah in Quran.
I asked armughul; your input is welcomed as well.
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
^ You have the answer from brother Mazhar-Kaleem-Fan - check post # 30
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
if that is the case then this ahlulbayt (inclusive of wives) has no significance as Allah states that
. If ye two turn in repentance to Him your hearts are indeed so
inclined; but if ye back up each other against him truly Allah is
his Protector and Gabriel and (every) righteous one among those
who believe and furthermore the angels will back (him) up
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
partial answer, I asked.
(With all due respect)
1. how do you know for sure 33:33 ayah; used the word of ahl-ebait for the wives?
2. How do muslims know the meaing of ayah in quran in general? what is the critertia/rule/quide lines?
Many thanks
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
^ did u try by yourself to first go and read the surah 33 and try to make it out by ur ownself????
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
I can not read Arabic; if i was so good in making out surah all by myself, i would't be asking question(s).
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
. If ye two turn in repentance to Him your hearts are indeed so inclined; but if ye back up each other against him truly Allah is his Protector and Gabriel and (every) righteous one among those who believe and furthermore the angels will back (him) up
can you give the reference for the above verse as from the face of it, there is no apparent link between the two
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
[quote=""Das Reichif that is the case then this ahlulbayt (inclusive of wives) has no significance as Allah states that
. If ye two turn in repentance to Him your hearts are indeed so inclined""]
You got to ponder deep.
[/quote]
**
In your haste to respond I guess you didn’t ponder deep enough and have erred miserably.
So technically you have admitted:
- that the Prophet (saw) did not follow the following command from Quran and married ladies not ‘Pure’ or virtuous .
“Women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity.”(Quran 24:26)
- that the Prophet (saw) did not follow his own advise (see below) and married ladies who are best in the religion and character.
“A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, for her rank, for her beauty, and for her religion (and character), so marry the one who is best in the religion and character and prosper.” (Bukhari and Muslim)
Brother, you must understand what you are admitting to whether knowingly (which I doubt knowing you) or inadvertently.
This is a mighty insult to the dignity of the Prophet (saw).
I am addressing the other points raised by you later.
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you,* O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.** (Quran 33:33)*
The above verse which the Shia use to prove who belongs to Ahlul Bayt and their purity and infallibility in fact goes against their this very core belief.
Shia belief that their respected Imams (raa) are born ‘pure and sinless’.
So why should Allah (swt) ‘purify with (thorough) purifying’ someone who He had brought to this world ‘pure and sinless’ unless of course if they did need such (thorough) purifying.
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
Responding to the highlighted part.
Read the above quotation again, especially the very opening words **“It may be if he divorced you”. **
There is a condition of “may be if he”.
So you mean that you understand that there were consorts much better than what the Prophet (swt) got out there and that these consorts were married to some other less noble men than the Prophet (saw)?
Really, do you mean to say and mean the above?
Brother,** you got to ponder deeper and understand what you are trying to imply, **even if inadvertently.
You may get the gist of what I am saying if you read the following ayahs and pay attention to the ayah highlighted.
And note the condition of “IF” and what horrible reckoning was in store for the Prophet (saw).
Most surely, it is the Word brought by an honored Messenger,
And it is not the word of a poet; little is it that you believe;
Nor the word of a soothsayer; little is it that you mind.
It is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
**And if he had fabricated against Us some of the sayings,**We would certainly have seized him by the right hand,
Then We would certainly have cut off his aorta.
And not one of you could have withheld Us from him.
And most surely it is a reminder for those who guard (against evil).
And most surely We know that some of you are rejecters. Quran - 69:40 - 49
Re: NOAH ARC (as) ARC & AHLE BAYTE(as)
It is very interesting topic now however in my humble request in order to find ‘Ahl e Bayat’ as per Quran (33.33)
Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying. (Quran 33:33)
According to above context from Quran People of House are “Tahir” in Urdu Pak o Saaf (Pakiza NOT only from Heart as well from outside/physically)
Now we have to check it how many individuals in prophets household were purified by Allah?
Specially ladies should be clean from their regular monthly cycles (because during that time they are not able to perform any Salat and in our religion Salat is a direct connection between Allah and Banda and it seems to me very illogical that connection between purified personalities and Allah has revoked or down for a second rather four or five days ) according to above Quranic verse People O House are purified and clean so we have to find someone in the Islamic history (Woman or Women who were Tahira Pak o Pakiza)
How many wives or daughter/daughters of Prophet Muhammad e Mustafa (sww) fall under this criteria (of Purification)? For Lord Almighty everything is possible if Hazrat Essa can born without a father then Allah can make clean and purify Ahely e Bayat as well from any Nijasat