Iqbal,
I would like to know your personal view on the ruling that you posted. Do you agree or disagree with it?
BTW, I disagree with it word to word.
That is some scary, intolerant, hateful, unforgiving and un-Godly like stuff if you ask me. It goes without saying that a wise, holy and benevolent man (as I assume Muhammed was) would NEVER require the death of someone who had verbally abused him.
Do these ‘rulings’ apply to all the prophets or just Muhammed? I’ve always heard that Muslims do not distinguish between the prophets. Jesus, for one, would be horrified at these ‘rulings’ as they go against every principle he advocated.
Where does Jesus come into all this? Is everthing he preached overwritten by the Quran and hadiths? Or at least interpretations such as these?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
**Iqbal,
I would like to know your personal view on the ruling that you posted. Do you agree or disagree with it?
BTW, I disagree with it word to word.**
[/QUOTE]
ahmadjee, i've only had a cursory look at this (i've not really studied these particular hadith which, even though they appear authentic, need to be considered in detail by reference to authoritative hadith commentaries). There are a few issues that need to be looked at:
A Muslim insulting the Prophet (s). Of course, this is quite unthinkable but if it were to occur, verses 9:64-66 seem to apply.
A non-Muslim insulting the Prophet (s). In this regard, three other factors, as i see it, come into play:
2a. The sentence/penalty - whatever form it might take - for insulting the Prophet (s) has to be presided over by an Islamic State. It is not for individuals to go around inflicting capital punishments on citizens as they see fit.
2b. What does one do if the non-Muslim repents and regrets? The web page i referred to mentions a difference of opinion on this view. This has to be looked at.
2c. However, the web page does go on to say that the Prophet (s) forgave some of those who insulted him but that after his death his forgiveness is no longer possible and therefore the penalty has to be applied to everyone. However, a reverse understanding is quite possible as well. If it can be shown that the norm was for the Prophet (s) to forgive his enemies, then it would be safer to err on the side of a general rule which states that such individuals should always be forgiven so long as they repent and the State allows this. I'm just thinking out loud on this one, but it would be interesting to see whether any scholars have looked at it from this aspect.
Iqbal
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kosser_M: *
The example you give is before the Islamic state was established in Medina, even when the sahabah (ra) were tortured no action was taken because it was intellectual struggle (i.e. a struggle between ideas Islam vs. kufr). And Muhammed (saw) was not ordered to take any physical actions (i.e. fighting or killing). So your example is out of place because after the state was established in Medina, fighting & killing took place.
[/QUOTE]
Give me one example where Prophet Muhammad (Sallalh o Alaihai Wassalam) ordered someone killed for insulting him. Yes, go ahead, and search for an example, after the state was established in Medina.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kosser_M: *
Now to blaspheme, you leave the fold of Islam for Muslims, and hence, become Murtaad and are killed.
[/QUOTE]
Dude, you are just using conjecture. Yes, as a muslim I believe that anyone who says something insulting to the Prophet Muhammad (Sallalh o Alaihai Wassalam) will be dealt with by Allah Ta'llah, but do tell me on whose authority you are declaring him out of fold of Islam? Because you are justifying killing the person. Give me an evidence where the Prophet (Sallalah o Alaihay Wassalam) declared anyone non-muslim for insulting him. Plus in this particular case, I don't think the offender is a muslim anyway, so its a non-issue.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kosser_M: *
As for the non Muslims they are warned and if they are causing harm to the deen are locked up if it continues then the khaleefah will adopt an appropriate punishment which can include death.
[/QUOTE]
We are not discussing what khaleefah (as you envision it) will do or not do. Give me any evidence on what the Prophet (Sallalah O Alaihai Wassalam) did in his life-time to non-muslims. There were plenty of people who did not believe in his message. Bedouins of his time were not exactly famous for their etiquette and there are numerous cases documented where they used inflamattory language while talking to the Prophet (Sallalah o Alaihay Wassalam). They asked stuff which we may feel blasphemous. But what we feel or think is irrelevant because for religious rulings we have to go by what Allah has ordered in the Quran and what his messanger did in his lifetime. Did the Prophet (Sallalah o Alaihay Wassalam) cursed them, warned them or ordered them killed?
PLEASE NOTE THAT THESE ARE AUTHENTIC AHADEETH. IF SOMEONE BLASPHEMES KNOWINGLY AGAINST THE PROPHET(SAW) OR ALLAH(SWT) THIS TAKES HIM OUTSIDE THE FOLDS OF ISLAM. AND THESE TWO HADITH DESCRIBE WHAT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE WHO LEAVE ISLAM.
On the authority of ibn Mas’ud (May Allah be pleased with him) who said: The messenger of Allah (may the blessings and peace of Allah be upon him said:
“The blood of a Muslim may not be legally spilt other than in one of three [instances]: the married person who commits adultery; a life for a life; and one who forsakes his religion”
[Bukhari & Muslim]
“Whosoever changes his deen, Kill him” [Muslim & Bukhari]
Now to blaspheme, you leave the fold of Islam for Muslims, and hence, become Murtaad and are killed.
The blashemous in this case was a non-muslim. No? So where is your argument about non-muslims?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
The blashemous in this case was a non-muslim. No? So where is your argument about non-muslims?
[/QUOTE]
As for the non Muslims they are warned and if they are causing harm to the deen are locked up if it continues then the khaleefah will adopt an appropriate punishment which can include death. This is in the best interest for the deen, if someone is causing harm to the deen.
Give some evidence from Quran or Sunnah for whatever you are saying.
This is adoption of the khaleefah and it depends on the reality at hand and what has taken place, then the jurists will see what the islamic punishment is for this, or the khaleefah will decide.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kosser_M: *
As for the non Muslims they are warned and if they are causing harm to the deen are locked up if it continues then the khaleefah will adopt an appropriate punishment which can include death. This is in the best interest for the deen, if someone is causing harm to the deen.
[/QUOTE]
but what happens every religen comes with the same senistivity
as islam and if the muslims as minoroity becomes victims
of otheres fnatanticism. anything you can do physically others can do it to you too. so it is better to follow civil laws instead of relgious laws
or anger that comes from provocation of few irresponible individuals.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kosser_M: *
This is adoption of the khaleefah and it depends on the reality at hand and what has taken place, then the jurists will see what the islamic punishment is for this, or the khaleefah will decide.
[/QUOTE]
Very good. So you just admitted that to your knowledge, the Prophet (Sallalah o Alaihay Wassalam) never ordered any non-muslim killed for blasphemy, and this is something the jurists will decide at some future date. Shabaash ay bhaee.. itna waqt lagaya accept karnay mein.
Whereas earlier you had pronounced warning and penalty (possibly death) for them. Good for you!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
but what happens every religen comes with the same senistivity
as islam and if the muslims as minoroity becomes victims
of otheres fnatanticism. anything you can do physically others can do it to you too. so it is better to follow civil laws instead of relgious laws
or anger that comes from provocation of few irresponible individuals.
[/QUOTE]
Thank you for your comment, but I am a Muslim who fears Allah (swt), so I do not obey any law by the created I only obey law by the creator.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Very good. So you just admitted that to your knowledge, the Prophet (Sallalah o Alaihay Wassalam) never ordered any non-muslim killed for blasphemy, and this is something the jurists will decide at some future date. Shabaash ay bhaee.. itna waqt lagaya accept karnay mein.
Whereas earlier you had pronounced warning and penalty (possibly death) for them. Good for you!
[/QUOTE]
this is not a game you know!!!
You made up an Islamic rule without any basis or proper knowledge. That is very serious offense. I hope you realize that.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
You made up an Islamic rule without any basis or proper knowledge. That is very serious offense. I hope you realize that.
[/QUOTE]
No I didn't killing the kafir can take place if the jurist or the khalifah decide there is no other option. So, Go read a book please.
Jazzakallah Khair
brother Faisal nice chatting to you.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kosser_M: *
No I didn't killing the kafir can take place if the jurist or the khalifah decide there is no other option. So, Go read a book please.
[/QUOTE]
Is that your best answer? Nothing from Quran or Sunnah to back up your statement. You disappoint me, Kosser. I thought HT has better training than that.
Faisal & Kosser_M, what are your views on the link i posted earlier?
Iqbal
Like you know anything about HT! What is the method of HT?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kosser_M: *
Thank you for your comment, but I am a Muslim who fears Allah (swt), so I do not obey any law by the created I only obey law by the creator.
[/QUOTE]
this very vague . if everbdoy walking in the street decides this is god's law there will be chaos. who decides fatwa ? goverment or relgious leader or authority on koran? already nigerian goverment rejected
the fatwa.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Jesus, for one, would be horrified at these 'rulings' as they go against every principle he advocated.
[/quote]
Blasphemy against God's Name, for example, is punishable by being stoned to death according to the Old Testament.
"The Lord said to Moses, saying: Take the blasphemer outside the camp; and let all who were within hearing (of the blasphemy) lay their hands on his head, and let the whole congregation stone him. And speak to the people of Israel saying: Anyone who curses God shall bear the sin. One who blasphemes the Name of the Lord shall be put to death; the whole congregation shall stone the blasphemer. Aliens as well as citizens, when they blaspheme the Name, shall be put to death." (Leviticus 24:13-16)
Here the blasphemer is physically brought outside of the camp since he or she is now considered unholy and polluting other residents. The blasphemer supposedly purges the whole community by his or her death.
Similarly, the OT prohibits cursing one's leader or king.
"You shall not revile God, or curse a leader of your people." (Exodus 22:28)
According to some interpretations, the excommunication of the blasphemer was substituted as a punishment for the death penalty. But that doesn't negate the fact that stoning was once the law according to the Bible.
In fact, as per the New Testament, Jesus himself was killed for what others understood to be blasphemy (God forbid!!). The high priest, elders and scribes agreed that he should be put to death on that basis (Matt. 26:65-66). Jesus didn't reply by saying that the death sentence no longer applies to blasphemy and so the priests should choose another form of punishment. In fact, with the exception of some dietary laws, Jesus abrogated little or nothing from the OT. Yes, Jesus did say that blasphemy may be forgiven - except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matt. 12:31) - but i take it that such forgiveness will be meted out in the next life; it doesn't necessarily override punishment in this life.
Food for thought.
Iqbal