naskh and mansookh

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

I saw Yasir in another thread talking about ‘naskh’ and ‘mansookh’. I thought about letting it go for sake of brevity and unnecessary debate, but I saw it mentioned again and couldn’t let go this time.

Here’s a very brief account of what ‘naskh’ and ‘mansookh’ are.

naskh is an arabic word meaning cancelation and mansookh means canceled.

The naskh of Quranic verses is the cancelation of some verses by Allah’s order (not by sunni ulema, which Yasir alleged) which were done during the lifetime of Prophet (pbuh)

It has nothing to do with “Tahreef”-e-Quran, which few scholars of a certain sect believe in and which means the addition/change in quranic verses by human sources, done after Prophet (pbuh) departed this world.

There’s a world of difference between these two issues. And I think Yasir either missed that because of not knowing this info in correct light or got confused. Still it’s one hell of a claim to be made in a one liner.

Anyway, Quran talks about ‘naskh’ at few places,

" When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, “Thou art
but a forger”: but most of them understand not. " 16/101

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? " 2/106

naskh is of three types

*naskh-ul-hukm (meaning the verse was kept but the ruling was canceled) There are many instances in Quran, where a certain ruling was revealed in steps, each order upgrading (and sometimes cancelling) previous one. For instance the issue of drinking, or you may want to check these two aayaa’s 8/65 and 8/66.

*naskh-ul-tilawa (meaning that the recitation of the verse was canceled.. it was removed)
*naskh-ul-tilawa wal hukm (meaning that the recitation was canceled and so was the ruling) Now these two naskh are not very well known among the Muslims (I didn’t know about these until a few years ago) and it irritates me that from time to time people bring this issue in forums and newsgroups like alt.religion.islam just to create doubts among Muslims, taking advantage of the ignorance which in general lies about this topic. Like I said, the concencus is clear about this issue. All these aaya were removed during the Prophet (pbuh) time and the hadith books are very clear about this issue, when they mention it. The whole ‘ilm’ is too long to write here (and my knowledge is too limited) but suffice it to say that from the hadith books and from the work of both sunni and shia scholars it has always been proved that these abrogations happened during the lifetime of Prophet (pbuh) and by the command of Allah.

There are many books on this topic, and I’ll inshaallah dig in to find few names.

My purpose here was to show that ‘naskh’ has nothing in common with ‘tahreef’.

Allah knows best.

2

Thanks, deepblue, I think you answered my questions as well in your post.

Abrogation of a verse is a world of difference from addition/subtraction of verse(s). The first is a divine injunction, while the latter is blasphemy - polar opposities.

Still, if an Ahmadi can briefly answer my questions posted by "Stud" I'd appreciate it. Just to confirm that we are on the same wavelength here!

Achtung ;)

3

Deepblue,

I read your post and I have seen the ayaat from Quran which you have mentioned. The Ayaat about cancelation of Hukam doesn’t explain the point. Both the Ayaat uses word “aaya” which means “nishaan” which means that if Allah cancels one of his sign He brings a better than that. And even if you consider it as a cancelation of an Hukam then we have to asume that its the cancelation of previous sharia for e.g Torait. And Allah then gave us a better shariat in the shape of Quran. So this meaning exactly fits the ayat.

Secondly the 8:65 and 8:66 also doesn’t explain your point. Allah says kay in MominooN ko Baar Baar takeed karo…20 sabit qadam (momin) hoon gay To 200 kafiron par ghalib A JAIN GAY. ( that if you will have 20 sabit qadam momin then you will win over 200)
In secon ayat Allah says. Because we know that you have some weaknesses, so if you have 100 sabit qadam people, you should over come 200.

Now if you think that this is a cancelation of a hukam then it will be a big stupidity on your part.

READ AYAAT CAREFULLY: Allah say that you will overcome kafir 10 times you. BUT there is a condition for that. And the condition is that you should have a high level of imaan. If not then you won’t. Thats why Allah says, O prophet keep on advising them…This means that they are not at that level and need advice.
In the second ayat Allah says that you are not at that level so you can win 2 times your opponent. Not the words “IF…YOU WILL” in the first ayat and “YOU SHOULD”

MIRZA YASIR

[email protected]

Homepages
mirzayasir.paklinks.com
pafcollchaklala.paklinks.com
Homeopathy Message Board
This is a message board which I created. Here you can post your diseases along with your symptoms and get a homeopathic prescription in 2-3 days. Its Free! Its amazing! Try it.
http://mirzahomeomain.paklinks.com

4

Yasir,
You are talking about tafseer and not literal translation. Your explanation that the abrogation in the aaya was meant to be abrogation of previous sharia is one way of understanding the meanings. It doesn't make the other meaning (which I was implying) to be a necessarily false one. And this is, when we consider the translation without any (or very little) background knowledge. However, if we want to differentiate between possible explanations, then we'll have to consider all the relevant issues. This is what ilm-e-naskh is all about. And I do feel that I (and you too) do not have the necessary skills to talk about it. It's really beyond the scope of this forum.

Once again, my purpose was to say that 'naskh' is not against the 'Quran is preserved' argument which Muslims believe in. There are many instances in Quran, where you see an aaya upgrading (and sometimes completely making obsolete) another aaya. These are hard facts and ilm-naskh answers these issues.

About your comment on 8/65 and 8/66, once again, it's a 'tafseer' you are talking about. There are many people who don't agree with your comment. More importantly, I'd like to see where you picked that translation... Let me write the translation from two sources.. READ THE AAYAT CAREFULLY

008.065
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.

008.66
YUSUFALI: For the present, Allah hath lightened your (task), for He knoweth that there is a weak spot in you: But (even so), if there are a hundred of you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred, and if a thousand, they will vanquish two thousand, with the leave of Allah: for Allah is with those who patiently persevere.

PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.

PICKTHAL: Now hath Allah lightened your burden, for He knoweth that there is weakness in you. So if there be of you a steadfast hundred they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a thousand (steadfast) they shall overcome two thousand by permission of Allah. Allah is with the steadfast.

The point here is not that the second aaya tells a completely different story (which it doesn't) but that, the second aaya is delivered in a different tone and not as a continuation of the argument present in the first aaya. For the Muslims at that time, the second aaya came later in time upgrading the previous knowledge they had. Allah knows best how, when and in what way, to lay down rules.

Few more things,

  • This is a bit unrelated to the topic, but allow me to say anyway that the "Urge people to war" doesn't mean in the least bit that Islam promotes fighting. Don't forget the bigger picture that Islam asks Muslims to fight only in self defence or when the muslims are put to test very harshly under another government. It's this 'war' that's being talked about.

  • This whole debate is a moot point, as there are other even clearer instances, where one aaya came up with an upgraded (or entirely different) ruling compared to a previous aaya.

My apologies for this lengthy post.

[This message has been edited by deepblue (edited April 15, 1999).]

5

For better understanding
This concept:
Open doors of conflict in quran
Open doors to choose to what to follow and what to not
Open doors to decide on ayaa(s)
Google:
Shah Wali-illaha Nasikh/Mansokh
Mohammad Asad (not just yusuf ali and Picktal but check Mohammad Asad)
Also see how our christian brohters deal with this
Also there are three versions of the yusuf Ali translation/tafseer -- abbrogated time by time
U r free to choose but study with open heart

Please eleborate as I am both " Zero and Khan"

6

Peace Mirza Yasir

I understand the verse as per deepblue. To clarify:

Event 1: Ayat 8:65 was revealed as prophecy and motivation
Event 2: Battles took place
Event 3: Event 1 was proven correct -
Event 4: Time lapse
Event 5: Muslims gain in number - however the quality of their faith due to some new additions as a whole is lower.
Event 6: Preparation for more battles
Event 7: A reality check was needed on Ayah 8:65 as the Muslims grew in physical strength but were mixed with people who were not as solid in faith ... Thus Ayat 8:66 was revealed to ensure that people would not turn on their heels by being subjected a seemingly false prophecy.
Event 8: Battles took place
Event 9: 8:66 was applicable and the proportions in 8:65 were no longer applicable - 8:66 was proven correct furthermore the timely nature of the abrogation was proven correct also.

7

AOA

Usually people wil pt theses ayas as proof:

" When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art
but a forger": but most of them understand not. " 16/101

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? " 2/106

Please read carefully does any of these aya's say that Allah changes aharam into halal or vice versa. In other words that Allah permits something and then later on bans it.
These ayas clearly say that Alaha simply reveals in STAGES according to human mind lvele, culture orientation, language and era............... that is simply continue to prepare stage for and mind of audience step by step what is destined to come.

Another example that is usually given as proof of abbrogation concerning wine-drinking:

[RIGHT]يَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الْخَمْرِ وَالْمَيْسِرِ قُلْ فِيهِمَا إِثْمٌ كَبِيرٌ وَمَنَافِعُ لِلنَّاسِ وَإِثْمُهُمَا أَكْبَرُ مِنْ نَفْعِهِمَا [/RIGHT]
"They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: 'In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.'"
(2:219)

So at this point in time it was merely stated that the sin in wine was greater than its profit. So those of the *Sahabah *(ra) who felt that they should abstain from it due to this, did so, while others continued to drink.
Then it was revealed:

[RIGHT]يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لا تَقْرَبُوا الصَّلاةَ وَأَنْتُمْ سُكَارَى حَتَّى تَعْلَمُوا مَا تَقُولُونَ[/RIGHT]
ا
"O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say."
(4: 43)

When this was revealed more of the Sahabah *(ra) left off wine-drinking because they had to plan it around their *Salah. They could not make *Salah *while they were drunk.

Finally it was revealed:

[RIGHT]يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْخَمْرُ وَالْمَيْسِرُ وَالأنْصَابُ وَالأزْلامُ رِجْسٌ مِنْ عَمَلِ الشَّيْطَانِ فَاجْتَنِبُوهُ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ[/RIGHT]
"O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper."
(5: 90)

Now drinking wine became totally *haram *and everyone abstained from it.

Bro please read carefully again it is not that one thing is halal or recommended in one/two of three and then haram/not recomended in another two/one........ but simply continuation of the same concept that drinking is bad. According to the time, culture and mind level of the new muslims it was gradually revealed to prepare both stage for and mind of audience and then excercised fully in the third aya.

So taking this concept of abbrogation and turning some thing upside down to make halal of haram and vice versa is surprising.

Other examples can be given from quran or sunnah. Allaha is all knowing and does not change halal and haram but simple move step by step towards last prophet quran from first prophet and his book in a gradual way and accrding to mind level of the audience.

We change meaning because of love, hate, profit or ignorance.

Sorry for hard feeling and and mistakes as i am both zero and khan.

Allaha Knows best