Re: na'at and crossing the line
Thanks vroom. I will think more about it.
Re: na'at and crossing the line
The Holy Spirits given to Christians are mentioned in the Quran [not as part of the trinity that christians believe]
** ...the Messiah, Eisa the son of Maryam, is purely a Noble Messenger of Allah, and His Word; which He sent towards Maryam, and a Spirit from Him;**
[Nisa 4:171] O People given the Book(s)! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor say anything concerning Allah, but the truth; the Messiah, Eisa the son of Maryam, is purely a Noble Messenger of Allah, and His Word; which He sent towards Maryam, and a Spirit from Him; so believe in Allah and His Noble Messengers; and do not say "Three"; desist, for your own good; undoubtedly Allah is the only One God; Purity is to Him from begetting a child; to Him only belongs all whatever is in the heavens and all whatever is in the earth; and Allah is a Sufficient Trustee (of affairs).
**...We gave Eisa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear proofs and supported him with the Holy Spirit;...
**from:
**[Baqarah 2:87] And indeed We gave Moosa (Moses) the Book and subsequent to him, sent Noble Messengers one after another - and We gave Eisa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear proofs and supported him with the Holy Spirit; so when a Noble Messenger from Allah comes to you bringing what you yourselves do not desire, you grow arrogant; so you disbelieve in a group of the Prophets and another group of Prophets you slay!
and ...We sent Eisa, the son of Maryam, and bestowed the Injeel to him; and We instilled compassion and mercy in the hearts of his followers...
**from:
[Hadeed 57:27] We then sent Our other Noble Messengers after them following their footsteps, and after them We sent Eisa, the son of Maryam, and bestowed the Injeel to him; and We instilled compassion and mercy in the hearts of his followers; and they invented monasticism which We had not ordained upon them only to seek Allah’s pleasure, then did not properly abide by it as it should have been rightfully abided; We therefore gave the believers among them their reward; and many of them are sinners.
Yeah so, I do believe in the Holy Spirit and that given to Christians but not as they believe, I see why you would link me to them.. but I contend that there is nothing wrong with my belief especially since I said the Muslim Community have been guided by Allah - a statement which is inclusive of all means. So being close to the christian argument is not a bad thing because as a Muslim you would have to affirm the role of the Holy Spirit within Christianity.
Isa Alaihis Salam is:*''...the Word of Allah and His Spirit..." *
Yeah so I can see the similarity between the mainstream Muslims [who write and recite Na'ats] and christians from a prospective. This alternative prospective is perhaps similar to the jews or the lands of sternness and mercilessness. Earlier we heard mention of a Quran Ayat [doon ilah?] which was meant for the disbelievers and was applied across the board to the Believers. One must understand that this was only applied by very very horrible man from a cursed area 1200 years after Revelation. Those ayats do not apply to the Believers - I can In Sha Allah prove it [perhaps on a different thread].
Re: na'at and crossing the line
Whilst potentially a na'at can have permissible and impermissible lyrics/elements, the contention here seems to be general ie towards the acts of praising, highlighting the high virtues, and belief in the after life. This contention is actually against the Spirit of Islam itself
As a rule - The permissibility of na'ats are subject to the same standards any other speech is subject to.
The one answer to all the objections that i recall [exaggeration, calling, asking] are actually answered in one Hadith Qudsi:
6137. 'Ata' related that Abu Hurayra said that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Allah said: 'I have declared war on anyone who shows enmity to a friend of Mine. My slave does not draw near to Me with anything I love more than what I have made obligatory on him. And my slave continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory actions until I love him. When I love him, I become his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes, and his foot with which he walks. If he were to ask Me for something, I would give it to him. If he were to ask Me for refuge, I would give him refuge. I do not hesitate in anything I do as I hesitate to take the soul of the believer who dislikes death and I disliked to annoy him.'"[Bukhari]
I love him **- you love him too, and have similar feelings as below
**I become...his hearing - it is increased beyond normal - they can hear you
I become...his seeing - it is increased beyond normal - they can see you
I become...their hand and foot - meaning Allah approves what they give and the bayah to them, and they can travel great distances with the help of Allah
*If he were to ask...Allah grants *- their supplications are answered, even for you
*I hesitate to take the soul of the believer who dislikes death and I disliked to annoy him *- they are alive
This is a good quick explanation of the Aqeedah of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah on these matters
Bring Iman to it, find your people with those qualities, and write na'ats to highlight them
The Holy Spirit of Na'ats
Re: na'at and crossing the line
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Yes it does, but are we going to take the words ''doon illah'' (besides God) and apply it to everything? If I get sick is it permissible for me to go anywhere else for cure but Allah Most High?
In Sha Allah, we will both remain truthful
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Sorry, but I cant help noticing this argument is how atheist find fault with concept of God.
This argument stems from illusion.
Asking for help from Doctor and from neighbour, is completely different domain from asking Allah(swt) to make things happen.
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I'll accept that, so asking from doctor/neighbour is ok but what happened to doon illah? Has Allah Ta'ala given you permission to call upon doctor or neighbour??
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I assume so. Since
1-"mim ma razaqna hum unfiqoon"(they spend from what *rizaq we gave them)
Is used over and over.
2-Taking care of *yateem.
3-Giving even life to help oppressed people.
All three are example of help among society. And its said in quran to take care of *saye'al(one who ask for help).
So yes It seems like asking for help among society and helping is fine.
If you keep insisting and mixing reality with illusion then I have no wish to argue with fellow muslim.
Since I am tired of answering such argument from atheists. ***
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You are trying to avoid illusion. Illusion here is belief. Far be it that I am using an atheist argument You are avoiding or are sceptical of the Islamic Belief [Aqeedah]. Hence I think your argument is closer to atheism [no insult intended]
from the above conversation we had it would appear your position stems from a misunderstanding of the Islamic Creed, and being distanced from it. I'll try to explain it in the nicest way possible
I take it by illusion you had not meant Allah Ta'ala and His Ability to know about us, which is from the unseen matters but you meant matters of belief such as the Ability to reach Rasoolullah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam, the angels and jinn around us. You have Iman on Allah Ta'ala, so its not an entirely atheist argument, but the other matters you consider illusion.
Islamic Creed on these other matters is that:
- RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam is Alive and present at His Blessed Rawdha [Garden] in Madina Sharif under the Green Dome. If Allah Ta'ala wills your messages and conversation with RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam can be conveyed and even a meeting with RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam can happen! The most common form of meeting is in Dreams - these are real - we believe in them and rely upon Allah Ta'ala for them
Our Most Common interaction with RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam is through the salams we send these are conveyed - both in and out of Salat. Although reading durood can also be called ''reciting Salat upon RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam''! I hope you are able to differentiate the two salats, both are Worship of Allah.
The conveying of these Salams is proof in our Belief of the Hayat of the Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam
to be continued...
I pressed post by mistake
Re: na’at and crossing the line
Sending Salam is calling [also known as Dua] of doon illah. It is calling, calling is dua - the term dua is usually reserved for the calling of Allah Ta’ala - I hope you can differentiate between the the two callings. We actually believe in both forms of calling, to Allah and to ghairullah.
The Islamic creed is that death is not the end it is merely a separation of Ruh [soul] and Body - even the disbelievers have been spoken to after death
Now once you have fitted all the pieces of the puzzles of Islamic creed
you can get to bringing Iman on:
1.Narrated Al-Qasim bin Muhammad: 'Aisha, (complaining of headache) said, “Oh, my head”! Allah’s Apostle said, “I wish that had happened while I was still living, for then I would ask Allah’s Forgiveness for you and invoke Allah for you.” Aisha said, “Wa thuklayah! By Allah, I think you want me to die; and If this should happen, you would spend the last part of the day sleeping with one of your wives!” The Prophet said, “Nay, I should say, ‘Oh my head!’ I felt like sending for Abu Bakr and his son, and appoint him as my successor lest some people claimed something or some others wished something, but then I said (to myself), 'Allah would not allow it to be otherwise, and the Muslims would prevent it to be otherwise”.
[Bukhari]
2. Translation: Imam Tabrani has narrated an incident that a person repeatedly visited Uthman bin Affan (ra) concerning something he needed but Uthman paid no attention to him. The man went to Uthman bin Hunaif (ra) and complained to him about the matter- [Note: this was after the death of the Prophet and after the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Umar ] so Uthman bin Hunaif said : “Go to the place of Wudu, then come to the Masjid, perform two Rak’ats and then say : “O Allah!, I ask you and turn to you through our Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. O Muhammad! I turn through you to my lord, that He fulfil my need” and mention your need. Then come so that I can go with you [to the caliph Uthman] So the man left and did as he had been told, then went to the door of Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him), and the doorman came, took him by the hand, brought him to Uthman ibn Affan, and seated him next to him on a cushion. 'Uthman asked, “What do you need?” and the man mentioned what he wanted, and Uthman accomplished it for him …(till the end of hadith)
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**Here is the cloak of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him). and she brought out to me that cloak made of Persian CLOTH with a hem of brocade, and its sleeves bordered with brocade and said: This wall Allah’s Messenger’s cloak with 'A’isha until she died, and when she died. I got possession of it. The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to wear that, and we washed it for the sick and sought CURE thereby. ( Sahih Muslim )](http://www.ummah.com/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=5149))
Narrated IsraiI: Uthman bin 'Abdullah bin Mauhab said,** “My people sent me with a bowl of water to Um Salama.” Isra’il approximated three fingers ('indicating the small size of the container in which there was some hair of the Prophet. 'Uthman added, “If any person suffered from evil eye or some other disease, he would send a vessel (containing water) to Um Salama. I looked into the container (that held the hair of the Prophet) and saw a few red hairs in it,” ( Bukhari )
*5. *****Imam Bukhari has a chapter named what to do when the leg becomes numb…answer is say Ya Muhammada..the ‘‘da’’ at the end is direct calling but lets just say its just remembrance - it cures you nevertheless ******
حديث ابن عمر أنه خَدِرَت رِجْله، فقيل له: ما لِرِجْلِك؟ قال: اجتمعَ عَصَبُها. قيل له: اذْكُر أحَبَّ النَّاسِ إليك قال: يا محمدُ، فَبَسَطَها
Sayyiduna ‘Abdullah ibn 'Umar Radi ALLAHu Ta’ala Anho once suffered from a cramp. Someone advised him to remember the person whom he loved the most. He proclaimed loudly, “Ya Muhammada!” He was immediately relieved. [Imam Bukhari al Adāb al Muf’rad]
- Hafiz Ibn Kathir, Imam at-Tabari and Imam Ibn al-Athir all wrote:
** “During the Khilafa of Abu Bakr as-Siddique (may Allah be pleased with him) there was a battle against the false prophet, Musaylima of Najd. When the battle commenced, the Muslims lost their footing at which point Khalid ibn Walid (may Allah be pleased with him) and the rest of the Companions called out ‘Ya Muhammad!’ (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) and proceeded to win the battle”**
[Tabari, Ta’rikh at-Tabari; Ibn Kathir, Ta’rikh Ibn Kathir; and Ibn al-Athir and Ibn Jarir, Ta’rikh Qamil, chapter on ‘Musaylima Kazzab’]
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This is how we got ZamZam water:
…“O you whose voice you have made me hear! If there is a ghawth (help/helper) with you (then help me)!”… [Bukhari] -
******if you are lost, it is reported by many different chains one should take help by saying ******‘‘Ainuni Ya IbadAllah’’ translation: help me servants of Allah
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A poetic proof:
**Narrated Abdullah bin Dinar (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ): My father said, “I heard Ibn ‘Umar (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ)reciting the poetic verses of Abu Talib (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) :
And a white (person) (i.e. the Prophet - صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) who is requested to pray for rain and who takes care of the orphans and is the guardian of widows. ”** [Bukhari]
alternative translation [Aisha Bewley]:
**Faultless, he is asked, by his noble face, to pray for rain,
A support for the orphans, a defence for the widows.
**
From the above list you can clearly what the poets/na’at khawans recite about are from the beliefs of Islam, although this does not mean they can not get it wrong. They can still get it wrong, just not for the things you highlighted in OP
I know you had asked not to argue but I am not a christian nor an atheist either. In Sha Allah rather then be disheartened you can appreciate what the traditionalists and the Sahaba, and the scholars have been upon. We clearly seek help through the Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallam in many different ways