Mythology or Religion?

by
Fazal Ahmad

And We did raise among every people a Messenger preaching: ‘Worship Allah and shun the Evil One.’ Then among them were some whom Allah guided and among them were some who became deserving of ruin. So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who treated the prophets as liars!
(Ch.16: V.37)

When does mythology become religion, and vice versa? The verse quoted above is in the Holy Qur’an, the religious text of Muslims, and gives a clear mandate to Muslims to travel the earth and study the religious development of all races on the planet. It commences by declaring that Messengers were sent to all peoples on the earth. In conducting such a study, we should find evidence of Prophets and religious development in every tribe or race, and also clues of the subsequent punishment inflicted on those tribes where a Messenger had been rejected or mistreated.

**Global vs Local Religion

**Some global faiths are treated more seriously because they have a written Book or heritage, and a greater following and political power. On the other hand, some beliefs and faiths are relegated to the realms of mythology because their followers are largely in the developing world and their beliefs have been transmitted orally rather than in a written form. But is this a sensible basis upon which to determine which faiths are Divinely-guided and which are not? Certainly, the Qur’anic verse quoted earlier is clear that religion was taught to every race, and in all parts of the world. So our study should start to uncover the evidence to support this claim.

**Have Global Faiths lasted the test of time?
**

Let us take a look at a few examples. In Christianity, from an early time (within 300 years of the time of Jesus(as)), a written account existed of the life and works of Jesus( a s ). Christianity grew in political and global strength on the back of first the Roman Empire, and then the dominance of European colonial
powers that were able to spread their message around the world. Even now, Christianity has the largest following worldwide. Yet, if we look at the first four books of the New Testament (Bible) which are known as the Synoptic Gospels and cover the same set of events around the life and works of Jesus(as), we find elementary differences between them. This is well-documented and is too broad a subject to cover here, but the main point is that if four individuals had captured their own version of events and these had been transmitted orally to their own communities and eventually put to paper, then there would not be a surprise to find such differences. What is striking despite the differences, is the strength of the character and teachings of Jesus( as ) that still shine out of the Bible. Yet, if it were claimed that the Bible is the infallible truth from God and was Divinely revealed, then the inaccuracies have either evolved over time, or the claim to Divine revelation cannot be true. Even Christian commentators accept that the Bible has changed over the centuries, and more recent discoveries such as the Codex Sinaiticus in Egypt show that there are verses missing or added from copies of the Bible dating back to the 4th Century CE.

Hinduism has hundreds of millions of adherents. It has a folklore built up of characters around Krishna( as ) and others from a specific period of antiquity based exclusively around the Indian culture. These traditions were captured in their holy book, the** Bhagavad Gita**. It is not easy to use this Book as a
history manual and often the language used is symbolic rather than literal, yet the sense of the faith still emerges.

Judaism also has a religious Book in the shape of the Torah. Again, the Torah (or a version of the Torah) is claimed to be Divinely revealed to Moses( ad ) exclusively for the 12 Hebrew tribes. Yet some of the events covered include the death of Moses( as ) which presumably not revealed to him in that state. Actually, the Torah also suffered a similar fate to the Bible in that it was transmitted orally and later put to paper following the Diaspora (dispersion of the Jews from the Middle East after the Babylonian and Roman con-quests of Palestine) at which point it was necessary to capture the text such that it would not be lost to later generations. Again, an in-depth study of the Old Testament ( Torah) shows anom-alies in the stories of the Prophets. So does this mean that the Torah is inaccurate and wrong, or that elements of the story have become distorted by man over time ? In each of these cases, it can be a rgued that Divine religion had become distorted in some aspects and it now seems more like mythology, whereas the main concepts still appear coherent. Jesus( as ) described himself as the true vine (John 15:1), or that his** body was like bread** (1 Corinthian 11:24), yet clearly that was not physically the case.

Krishna( as ) was described as having wings, yet again that was not physically the case. These were religious metaphors signifying traits such as protection which are exhibited by Prophets.

Can we uncover Divine Truth in Mythology?

In the opposite extreme are the various cultures around the world that hold a native or local religion. In the vast majority of these cases, it is hard to pinpoint a specific time or Prophet associated to their teachings. The Aborigines, native American Indians, Yoruba, Scandinavians, Incas and many others held and often still hold very strong beliefs about the Creator, man’s status in the universe, life after death and cataclysmic events. Their teachings of a Flood story will often resonate with versions of similar events in the global religions related to Noah(as). Yet these stories and beliefs are called mythology because they do not conform to our fundamentals of a traditional religion which
are:

• A named and known Prophet
sent to a specific race;

• A message for a specific time
and people;

• A Book capturing a Divine
message;

• An understanding of life after
death and the status of the
soul.

In the latter case, it could be legitimately argued that the tribal beliefs are the opposite to the ‘global religions’ in that there is no written form of the original faith, but in some cases, we can piece together a view of the original religion from the clues we havetoday in the form of oral traditions. Scholars such as
Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell did a lot of pioneering research on this subject in their time. Other characteristics of Prophets are that they invariably came at a time of spiritual decline when they were needed to oppose popular myths and beliefs, and to move people towards true religion. This made them unpopular among their own people. So we should look for similar traits in other candidate Prophets.

There is a grey area today between cults or local faiths that yield clues to their origins, or global faiths that have become distorted over time. Why are the man-made gods and goddesses of the Hindus today any different to the deities of the Greeks and Romans of two thousand years ago? They too had a sophisticated culture and excelled in arts and sciences just like us today. There are other religions that fall into the grey area between religion and mythology. The Ancient Egyptians are such an example. They had a strong religious identity. Although it is not possible at this time to pinpoint a prophet or line of
prophets, and there is no ancient Egyptian Bible, we do have a range of clues in the shape of temples, hieroglyphics and artefacts that provide ‘evidence’ of the beliefs of these ancient people. Could their Book of the Dead be seen as their religious text? The text describes a scene similar to our understanding of the Day of Judgement. It would be arrogant to consider their beliefs to have been anything less than a religion for them at their time, any less than our own faiths represent to us in this age. Again, the version of Egyptian religion presented in that text was different to what was being practised hundreds of years later at the time of Moses(as).

The Qur’an describes how some races that rejected God and the Messengers sent to them, were utterly destroyed. Even here, scientists and archaeologists are trying to unearth remains related to the people of Noah(as), Sodom and Gomorrah, the tribe of Ad and numerous others. A sobering thought is what men will make of our current beliefs in two thousand year’s time. Would they plough through the rubble of London and New York and suggest that as these were two of the major population centres of the world, they must also be the centres of global religion in the year 2005? I wonder if the evidence they will uncover can lead them to believe that:

• A message from heaven
reached New York on
September 11th, and thereafter,
this became a sacred date in the
world calendar.

• Some of the most worshipped
local deities included a global
female singer and a male
sportsman who played
footba l l .

• The singer wrote poems for
her followers which they
recited at mass worship
sessions.

• Man regularly visited the
angels Apollo and Soyuz.

[RIGHT]***“Our challenge is to
search the books,
traditions and temples of
the ancients to uncover
this lost treasure trove of
religious knowledge. If we
do this with an open mind,
we will be guided to the
truth and will be able to
distinguish between the
designs of mankind,
and the Designs of
God.”
***[/RIGHT]

This all sounds absurd, but consider the way archaeologists have to piece through fragments of evidence to discern the truth today, and you will see how plausible this could be for the archaeologists of the 23rd century if war destroyed much of the evidence of our modern culture. The only difference is that we now have such a volume of textual evidence, that it would be highly unlikely that they would not have some of this archive available to them.

**Known and unknown Messengers
**

We cannot simply refer to the ‘known’ Prophets of the Bible and Qur’an and claim that they had exclusive rights over Divine origin, as the Qur’an itself explains:

*“And We sent some Messengers whom We have a l ready mentioned to thee
and some Messengers whom We have not mentioned to thee” (Ch.4: V.165)

And:

**Verily, We have sent thee with
the truth as a bearer of glad
tidings and as a Warner and
there is no people to whom a
Warner has not been sent.
And if they treat thee
(Muhammad) as a liar, those
who were before them also
treated their Prophets as
liars. Their Messengers came
to them with clear Signs, and
with the Scriptures, and with
the illuminating Book.

**(Ch.35: V.25-26)
A literal reading of these verses would indicate that there are many Prophets that we do not know about in detail. There were many Judaeo-Christian Prophets in the line of Abraham(as). There were thousands of Prophets sent to mankind, and of course, we only know of a handful of them.

*The truth is that any truly Divinely guided Prophet or Book stands out. Despite inaccuracies in various texts today, the beliefs, morals and brave actions of great Prophets such as Abraham( as ), Noah( as ), Moses( as ), Jesus( as ), Krishna( as ) and Muhammad( saw ) stand as a living guidance for us today. The Qur’an is the only Book which claims to have retained its authenticity 100%. There is ample evidence suggesting that the text has been preserved through time. Followers of Islam can easily adopt the wisdom of other Prophets who all seem to have a consistent belief-system. There can only be one God, because if there were multiple deities, they would be competing with each other, and this would be evident in universal events. If there is only one God, He may easily
send messages in different forms to his creatures across the world, but the root messages could never be inconsistent with each other.

While this is true for the great world faiths, it is equally true that you can find Divine wisdom in the teachings of Prophets such as Confucius( as ), Zarathustra( as ), and equally in the actions of Job( as ), Salih(as) and perhaps Socrates(as). Similarly, a study of the beliefs of the various African tribes, Aborigines, Maoris, Native American Indians, Aztecs, Incas, Egyptians etc., will unearth fragments of morality, respect for family, understanding of creation and life after death. Their views may be surprisingly similar to our own even though the conext maybe different.

So in seeking to find these other Messengers that are not specifically named in the Qur’ a n , we should look for certain characteristics. These guides would have come not to appease their people, but to create a reformation. They would never malign other prophets. They would never deviate from the Unity of God. They would have faced hostility from their people, but also created a change amongst their followers. There are examples such as Akhenaton, the Egyptian Pharoah who went against the polytheism of his predecessors and asked his peopleto worship one God. The sparsity of information makes it harder to confirm whether his was a lone political mission to carve out his own status in Egypt, or whether he was a revolutionary Messenger striving to wipe away the mythology and polytheism that had come to pollute the religion of the Egyptians. There are several similar characters in tribes around the world.

To be continued…

Re: Mythology or Religion?

Numb you understand that this forum is not for serial cut-and-pasting of articles. we all have access to the internet and can browser whatever topic we wish to anyway.

could you please add more substance to your discussions by actually talking about what you want to discuss?

Re: Mythology or Religion?

I did many times, but if no one understands! what are you supposed to do? Instead telling me what to do, how if you would actually read what I copy & paste Mr. Mod? Do you think that I alone copy % paste? You really want to tell me that people here sit 2 hours and post a 400 words lecture? Hahahahaha, get a life...

All copy and paste here. And I not only copy and paste!

What would be the discussion?

The discussion would contain all Religions, All Sects, All Minorities, Background of Religion, Religion & Science, Religion & Philosophy, Religion & Mystic, Religion & Psychology, Religion & Evolution. Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Sikhism, Islam...
**
I have many things to tell you, but ye cannot bear them now**

A Mission, laying down the facts

Re: Mythology or Religion?

if you see differential treatment towards other posters for the same issue, please do report it to the mods of the forum.

you clearly are on a mission, however others may not share your desire to read the facts as you see them, and that is not the purpose of a discussion forum. you are welcome to do this in your blog.

please dont consider this as coming from a mod, this isnt my forum. merely from a occasional participant in religion discussions who finds your serial copy pasting a waste of web space.

Re: Mythology or Religion?

^

Oh, ok! What is the purpose of a discussion forum then?

Discussing about *"How would you name your baby?" **or *"Sex in Islam"? **

Yes, I get it! This is not gibberish I'm posting and you are labelin', these are undeniable facts and part of History. It seems to me that even you are not interested in these important subjects!

Yes a true Muslim always thinks about Sex and then gets labeled as a beast who 'snip' their wife like they were animal and then throw them away after he is done...

I see how much encouraged people here are to read about different faiths. Faiths of Allah, but here they rather discuss verses in praise of Imam Ali (ra) or conditions of divorce, is hitting the wife allowed in Islam and about the Armageddon.

Do you think that people would want to read this stuff if they don't read it in the discussion forum? They rather want to read gibberish and then a Thread is opened "Best Blog Of 2008". The Winner has achieved something great in the eyes of Allah!

Why don't you simply lock the threads opened by me instead of talking gibberish to me?

Allah Hu Akbar!

Re: Mythology or Religion?

calm down. the worst thing you can do if you're on a mission is to turn people off from whatever ur saying by being combative towards anyone who remotely challenges you. i see that you've been opening threads that are the equivalent of shouting in an echo chamber of one for a while on these forums. You might think its because nobody listens. Or it might be something wrong with how you're going about things.

you seem to misunderstand me. my issue is not with the content of your threads, but your method. if you frame the same as a discussion topic, with points to be discussed, your views (and the article as support) that would be a much better approach, and in line with forum rules.

Numb has been successful in turning us all "Numb"........to his constant preaching...............:)

Re: Mythology or Religion?

^

Yeah, I know you are not interested in bringing Peace to this World. Yes, you and your fellows are not able to bring all the Muslims on one table and discuss their differences. They rather want to know if hitting the wife is allowed or what about Black Magic? Or they open Threads accusing each other of having done this and that! This is the wrong place to make the drum beat. I forgot it's a Paki Forum. Sorry. You can close the Threads opened by me.

Close the thread ravage. Thank You!

A religious debate led here @GS or anywhere in this World's Forums will not lead to anything because the people themselves don't want it. Am I wrong when I say "Nobody listens"? I'm 100 % right! When people are confronted with the truth, they fear about their own lives like the 2 jews who came to the Prophet and said, "all signs in the Thora metioned apply to you, but if you accept you we fear for our lives"

I copy and pasted a text, what many also do here and and their thread is filled with answers. No wonder, because I really want to know if I'm really divorced when I bark thrice talak, talak, talak, even if the wife didn't hear it..Victory Sign in the AIR!

Why is a discussion not led here? What is wrong with this Thread? What is wrong with the Ahmad-Thread?

**Shall I tell you the hurting truth? Shall I? And don't tell me, No! It's not like that. Even the Mods have this kind of attitude. I'm Ahmadi and considered non-muslim and this is why NO ONE HERE wants to lead a discussion! When a discussion is led, only to bash them, since more than 120 years. This is the truth, Deny this thruth if you dare!

Look how the Thread about Gura Nanak went silent! Is it because I'm shouting? No, it's because I'm a fellow of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (ra)...This is the Truth! Deny it if you dare!
**

Mr Numb: Out here in the Wild Wild West they have a saying, I am sure you have heard of it too..................which seems to apply to this effort of yours quite aptly......................

You can lead a horse to water.................but you can not make it drink!..:)

oh Numb bhai, copy and paste all you want, pour your heart out but don't expect replies.

If you do want replies then explain in your own words what these books you are pasting are about. Then maybe just maybe someone will want to start a debate with you (again), that's what you want isn't it? An argument for an argument's sake? To boost your ego a little? Go ahead..

(IMO, who wants to reply to something that says promotes Mirza)

Re: Mythology or Religion?

You know what it's all about! The Thread is telling it. Read the things I wrote. They are not promoting Ahmad or whatever you call it.

Obama:

if the horses want to die, please!

Peace Numb

Lets see what Fazal has to say ... I've picked some bits I am interested to talk about ...

The anomalies that are present in the scriptrues are not necessarily anomalies that are to do with metaphoric statements. In fact most of them are literal discontinuities and there is no mythology about them. Fazal has been making assertions using intellectual debating tactics extraneous to any evidence. And if he can find two or three arguments to support his claims he will not be able to make conclusive judgements because I already have examples that contradict his theory.

Distortion does not necessarily lead to 'fantastic' mythology the contrary to which he has not substantiated yet. It leads to falsehoods I agree, and mythology as everyone knows is a mixture of these and truth. It therefore is not a valid argument to infer that just because it is 'fantastic' that it is a myth.

The Ahmadi position and in particular your position is that the claims of rising to heaven is mythology, but really you want to call it 'fantastical' claims. There could well be several documented fantastical claims and just because they are documented without distortion it does not make them true, likewise there could be well documented and not so documented things that 'seem' to minds like yours and mine because of our own experiences quite 'fantastical' but are reality and have come in time as miracles of God.

Explaining away miraculous things as a result of distortion is a deceptive line of argumentation. Mythology can be a set of completely normal day to day things too.

To stress just like it is possible to make things look more wonderful by exaggerating scribes of the past have also played down things so what could seem a normal thing to you or me was originally quite an amazing thing but because a scribe down played it we no longer see that. Mythology therefore has nothing to do with what is considered normal or not normal to you or me.

Then with the rigour of Islamic documentation you have no resort but to accept the words as real from Allah (SWT) as per the Qur'an but instead you attack the hadith for meanings they deliver on those verses as inaccurate.

Then you play guess work with the meaning of the Hindu scriptures and further your guess work that when Jesus (AS) explained his being a vine and then you compare it to the wings ... using your words even a child can distinguish between a metaphor and a literal claim.

This what you have posted is far from scholarly and insults the intellect. The identity of Islam is that we have an 'aqeedah and 'aqeedah which mandates us to fully accept the literal truth of miracle. And yes even if it is outside our normal experiences.

Furthermore it is most definitely not our duty to apply rationalism onto scripture that we have trouble accepting as Fazal seems to be saying above ... Rather we humble ourselves and believe.

this is the part you could've saved...

What do you want to say? insults to intellect? hahahaha, I've never came across some intellects here @GS execpt you! I think this guy never claimed, neither did I that he is a scholar. The Bible says, Jesus could walk on water. He could revive the dead! Is this a literal meaning?

It is our duty to apply rationality to the scriptures? Keeping your answer over the past weeks in my mind, your belief requires no proof, it is just blind belief, right? Majority has trouble accepting what Fazal said! or do we have Peace and agreement? I don't see any...

Re: Mythology or Religion?

Insult to intellects? The greatest INSULT to the intellect was most definitely when a minority of true muslims said "Nay, only a member of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) can become his successor"

The greatest insult to an intellect is, that even after 1400 years Muslims have not understood the true principle of Islam, even though our Prophet Muhammad Mustafa (saw) made it clear what Islam is all about. The next greatest is that today we have 72 of different prayers, belief, scholars, fasts and what not...welcome to the highly developed intellect of this age...

Where we still believe in stories drawn in Ghost Busters. You have not answered my questions, you owe me answers...I'm waitin'

**The Bible says, Jesus could walk on water. He could revive the dead! Is this a literal meaning?

**