My secret belief

[bob_chasm]

I think Code Red has an imaginative and creative mind. There seems to be a lot of different and interesting ideas floating around in his mind. It is nice of him to share them with us. In Pakistan children are told stories about bhoot pareet, churails, adam knor jinns etc too. Growing up children often combine these ideas with stories from the Quran in their minds. Later in life they are separated. Sometimes they dont and we call them superstitious. However, the point is this is normal in human development. In the west children have sc fi and other fantasy books. I think what code is doing is normal and perfectly healthy. he seems to be using his ideas of sci fi and fiction to build knowledge in religion. Instead of getting frustrated and angry with him, discuss what you think is written in the Quran and how you think it agrees or disagrees with what he is saying. Eventually, his mind will separate sci fi from religion. However, for now this is an interesting way for him to learn. The human mind is complex.

[Code_Red]

Re: My secret belief

Third Portion …

Sorry for the delay due to vacations. Hopefully my response will end with this post :flower1:

Prophet Lut and his encounter with Extra-terrestrials

Since i have put forward my theory and supporting evidence from quran, which i gathered/ examined after investing some time but respected members have dismissed them as mere fantasy and “Pointless observations”

My question was

The people of town were homosexual and they got the news of these visiting strange ( maybe beautiful ) people. Notice the warning and then plea of Prophet lut, for saving his honourable guest from ignorant and evil people of the town who came with bad intentions.
If they were angels then prophet lut must have known that people of the town can not harm them at all. But on the contrary Prophet lut , sternly warned them to back off , and even offered his daughters to save his guests from nasty people of the town.

to which psyah explained :
quote–
**You are confused about this story … Angels come unto Lut (AS) as men, then he does not recognise them, they in Surah hijr Ayat 63, the ‘that which they have been doubting refers to the torment’ because the people of Sodom were in doubt of Lut (AS) warnings. At this stage he knew that they were angels. The angels order Lut (AS) to flee the area while they prepare to destroy it. News of the arrival of visitors spread in the town and they came up to the house of Lut (AS). Before they could address them they were warned by Lut (AS) not to do or say anything disgraceful or shameful because he hoped (he might have a chance with his people), but they ignored him and further told him off for trying to take the honour of hosting the guests, who he knew were actually angels disguised as men. Lut (AS) tried very hard to stop them in their evil acts especially when the angels were there, he even offered his daughters in marriage to them, so he tried to save till the last moment, but they partied and did their shameful things and the angels turned in to weapons of God and levelled that town. **
–unquote
I believe the above explaination is a result of faulty understanding and incomplete research. I have told earlier that this tale is mentioned/reffered in atleast 4 places in the holy quran. and if we go through them, then we will come across the verses where it is clearly written that the people of sodom came for these specific people (guests of Lut)
Chapter 54 (Al Qamar) verses 32-40

And (Lut) did warn them of Our Punishment, but they disputed about the Warning. {36} And they even sought to snatch away his guests from him, but We blinded their eyes. (They heard:) “Now taste ye My Wrath and My Warning.” {37} Early on the morrow an abiding Punishment seized them: {38} “So taste ye My Wrath and My Warning.” {39} And We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition? {40}

So If prophet Lut knew they are angels (as bro psyah believes ) then why he desparetely tried to save them ???

My Answer : Prophet Lut Knew only that these people are sent by God as they themselves asserted that they are messengers (not angels) sent by God to destroy the nation (Holy quran 11-81) . He did not consider them angels thats why he was trying to save them from rowdy crowd. Allah never used the word reserved for angel for these people.

This is my understanding based on evidence from holy quran. Rest, Allah knows the best

Man is not a native of this planet !

I have already quoted many quranic verses which clearly tell us that by the virtue of its creation and master game plan, Man is not a native of this planet. Man (adam) was sent to this world to live here for a short (stipulated ) time and observe God’s commands. All Men are decsendant of one man and he came to earth from some other place. according to scriptures

Man is not a native can be proved scientifically as all the native animals can sense natural calamities beforehand due to their frequency match with mother nature. Man does not have this ability, wonder why ?

http://www.lankalibrary.com/news/animals.htm

[Code_Red]

Cont.

**Did Allah make mistake ? **

Obviously not ! But when we read few tales in holy quran we come across something strange. Most of you must be aware of the the story of creation of Adam and dialogues between Allah, satan and angels etc.

Now if you want to refresh the story in your mind then please consult holy quran, as the story is told in varying detail in many chapters of holy book. I am going to quote only the part which relates to the context of my point.

And behold, We said to the angels: “Bow down to Adam” and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith. {2, 34}

Note that Allah ordered angels to bow down to Adam. They complied but Iblis (satan) refused

Similar wording here

When We said to the angels, “Prostrate yourselves to Adam”, they prostrated themselves, but not Iblis: he refused. {20 :116}

Now examine these following verses :

Behold! We said to the angels, “Bow down to Adam”: They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers! {18 :50}

**Now if Iblis was a jin then what he was doing among Angels ??? **

And If he was among angel then why Allah is specifically telling us that he was a jin ?

Is Angel and Jin one and the same thing (creature) ?

According to my understanding, both creatures are of very different nature with very different attributes. Jin’naat are one creature and Malaika are another creature. One has free will but the other does not have a free will. Thats why they are reffered in quran separetely at different places.

Now anyone wants to answer my questions then he/she is most welcome

The most common explaination some of you might offer is that Iblis was Basically a jin but he attained status of Angel due to his dedicated worship for very long time.

If I buy this explaination then I deduce a principle that

A creature can assimmilate into another creature while containing its (some or most) attributes. of course by the will of ( and knowledge bestowed by) God**

Remember Iblis refused. Which means he had free will. Angels dont have free will

This principle can be applied to other creatures. I.e some Extra Terrestrial creature can become man and still have knowledge and qualities attained earlier, and vice versa

Note :

I am only putting forward my understanding supported with authentic source from holy scriptures. However, I do not consider my understanding error free.
Although i took considerable pain and invested time, cross checking refferece for my own satisfaction. If anyone wants to point out error and put forward counter arguments, I will be glad to engage in further debate

[Code_Red]

@bob_chasm

I think Code Red has an imaginative and creative mind. There seems to be a lot of different and interesting ideas floating around in his mind. It is nice of him to share them with us.

Thankyou for your comment on the object , rather than Subject But important aspect to note that people who are commenting on object are shying away from subject becasue of the un-orthrodox views and understanding exposed therein.

Please note that its is not wild imagination. These bieleifs are directly derived from holy scriptures. Thats why they are supported with array of refferences and quotation directly from the source

In Pakistan children are told stories about bhoot pareet, churails, adam knor jinns etc too. Growing up children often combine these ideas with stories from the Quran in their minds. Later in life they are separated. Sometimes they dont and we call them superstitious. However, the point is this is normal in human development. In the west children have sc fi and other fantasy books. I think what code is doing is normal and perfectly healthy. he seems to be using his ideas of sci fi and fiction to build knowledge in religion. Instead of getting frustrated and angry with him, discuss what you think is written in the Quran and how you think it agrees or disagrees with what he is saying. Eventually, his mind will separate sci fi from religion. However, for now this is an interesting way for him to learn. The human mind is complex.

Please explain to me how the stories told in quran are any different than fairy tales we hear in our childhood ?

Can we not make a movie like Lord of the Ring, based solely on the stories told in holy quran ?

I say , Yes we can !

Because these stories are fantastic and charming like fairy tales ; in the ‘literal sense’ of these two words.

What do you say ?

Please do substantiate you response

[bob_chasm]

@Code_Red

Thankyou for your comment on the object , rather than Subject But important aspect to note that people who are commenting on object are shying away from subject becasue of the un-orthrodox views and understanding exposed therein. Please note that its is not wild imagination. These bieleifs are directly derived from holy scriptures. Thats why they are supported with array of refferences and quotation directly from the source

Please explain to me how the stories told in quran are any different than fairy tales we hear in our childhood ? Can we not make a movie like Lord of the Ring, based solely on the stories told in holy quran ? I say , Yes we can !

Because these stories are fantastic and charming like fairy tales ; in the ‘literal sense’ of these two words.

What do you say ?

Please do substantiate you response

My secret belief:

As I see it, an ancient book (historically proven to have been written atleast 500 years prior to the coming of Muhammad in custody of two historically well known tribes) described how some very specific and clearly recognizable catastrophic rare events (Sun going dark, temperatures falling, plague arising out of Egypt and killing half the people of the world; volcanoes, earthquakes and tsunamis etc) would occur and usher the coming of a man in Arabia who would unite the Egyptians, Assyrians and Palestinians around the God of Abraham with a single language and initate a successful war against a cruel Roman Empire. In my opinion since it is scientifically and historically provable that these events preceded the coming of Muhammad and also that he united these nations in religion and language; and defeated the Roman Empire, the story of the Prophet Muhammad may well be more than just a fairy tale.

The question that consumes me is what is the statistical probability that this prediction about the future was merely a random coincidence? If it wasnt a coincidence, (personally I dont think was) then it was either the God (as the authors of the ancient book claim) or your alien friends who saw what was going to happen in the 6th and 7th century and told the authors of the ancient book. In any event, it seems more than just a fairy tale to me.

The message would become too lengthy if I posted all the supporting evidence in one post.

regards,

bob

[psyah]

@Code_Red

...

This is first portion :

Miracle , hand of God and transfusion of devine attribution to creatures through systematic means :

I sense the feeling that people gather from the theory and belief that I, somehow do not believe in miracles and trying to rationalize them through blowing stories out of propotion. Here i will try to clarify and explian my understanding of the subject.

Miracles, as told in holy scriptures can be categorised into two broad categories :

i ) Miracles happened (to and) through prophets by God Almighty and they served a purpose. I call it hand of God, allegorically. Splitting of sea (by God) through Moses to provide safe passage for his followers.

ii) Miracles that were performed prophets/holy men ; which was a gift of God to them either directly by devine knowledge or by transfusion through systemetic means like practce , experiments ,discoveries , transfer of knowledge.

**Doctors perform miracle everyday. **

This statement might not excite you very much as it might be considered a slogan of some Organisation run by medical practitioners. But if you look through theological binoculars then we know that All illness and all the cures are directly from God Almighty. And without his will, no one can cure any illness.

What doctors do is the precisely the application of 2nd type of miracles. They partake the lengthy and difficult journey of acquiring knowledge perfected by centuries of research and result of important experiments and finding. Which was gathered by the efforts of so many men.

Heat eyes, kidney transplant and so many cures of illnesses were unthinkable just a few centuries ago. What a doctor does today in his daily routine, if did it it infront of people of mideaval then they would not consider it anything short of a miracle.

The cases I bring forth , the stories told in holy scribtures of prophet suleman and Khizar is also of similar nature. He had the gift of God in the form of knowlegde and resultant extra-ordinary powers over creatures and stuff. However miracles attributed to some other prophets fall in the 1st category. In other words, Moses was not besowed with the knowledge of splitting sea neither Prophet Ibrahim knew how cool down the fire.... Similarly Noah was told to build a boat to sail through the once in a life time experience.

The reason for believing them to be non-native of this world is their stark contrast in acquired knowledge from the ordinary populace of this planet and them being well ahead of their time. For instance, flying around with entourage is understandable, listening and talking to animals is also understandable. As of now we know tha humans can only hear to voice with range of 20 to 20,000 db ( approx) most of the animal sounds are out of this range. This and other marvelous feats are well ahead of there time in this world at that time... but probably not for inhabitants of some other world

The Arguments, reference from scriptures, supporting such ( non-human / man being prophet) belief I shall submit in third portion of this response, inshallah.

Continued ...

Peace bro Code_Red

As you can tell I have not been available to come to the forum lately. However, I would like to pick up on small points in your last three posts over the course of the next few days inshaAllah.

I have highlighted the in bold red above your type number 2 of miracles. Now please compare this with your bold italic statement a few lines below it. I can't see how the idiom of 'doctors performing miracles' is anything like that of the acts of prophets and holy men. What is being said here is that doctors be they atheists, or otherwise does not matter their ability is the SAME as that of prophets and holy men. You need to revise your assertion I think.

Also, the 'miracles' that doctors perform can be learnt by anyone it is a process of training and practice. However, that by prophets is NOT something that they are taught. Infact all prophetic miracles are of the same type as 1 which is as you define it 'Hand of God'. There is not a single miracle today that you can explain by use of scientific methods cast upon what prophets have done or what has been done to them.

It is true that all things happen by the Will of God, but this all encapsulates even things like breathing to keep us alive. No doubt this phenomenon is miraculous when viewed properly but it is not classed as a miracle by Islamic standards because the various criteria is not fulfilled.

The criteria for miracle is:

1) Either to protect prophet/holy person from harm or for the purpose of giving dawah

2) Outside normal conditions

3) Cannot be learned or acquired by anyone

4) Relatively small action is required to produce an impossibly large result without the use of any hidden tool or device.

The knowledge that Khidzr (AS) had of the ghaib that others did not have fill the above criteria. i.e. He did not have a time travel device. To assume this you will need to prove this first. If you then continue to assume this you are actually saying he did not miracle at all and cheated and led us to believe that he knowledge of the ghaib when infact he did not. Moreover you are saying that the Qur'an is telling us this.