My ignorant Question is.....

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Salam My Dear Friends
For the first time Im staring a string in this serious forum and I dont know whether my Question is a valid one or not. some people might find my Question offensive as Ive studied thru other strings in Religion section that some friends gets real fussy about religion and gets off track in their replies. Thats why Im appologising in anticipation as I dont want to hurt anyone’s feeling or religious beliefs. I just need the answer of my Question in simple statements and with solid references from the Holy Book or other Fiqah Literature. Please help me becoming a good Muslim.

**My Question is why is it that the punishment of converting from Islam to other religion (i.e Murtid) is only death. And what about those who are born Muslims and didn’t choose their religion by their own will and by any chance (may Allah forgive me!!) wants to choose some other religion. Here I mean the Beliefs based on Divine Books like Christianity, Jewism etc etc. Please help me find the true path. **

2

This is indeed a serious question. There are many references in Quran warning of hell-fire to those who believed Islam but then turned their backs and became disbelievers. These include

Apostacy, 3:72, 3:86-88, 3:90-91, 3:167, 4:137, 5:54, 9:74, 9:107, 16:106, 33:14
- do not ask for speedy doom for apostates, 46:35
-Allah alone will punish them, 73:11, 74:11
-punishment in the hereafter, 2:217, 9:74
-rejection by others, 3:87
-repentence, 3:89, 5:34, 9:5, 9:11
-on Judgement Day is too late, 40:85
-under duress, 16:106

However your question related to the death penalty for apostates (murtid). I searched the internet to find a suitable answer, and the following is one of those:

**The punishment for apostasy (riddah) is well-known in Islaamic Sharee’ah. The one who leaves Islaam will be asked to repent by the Sharee’ah judge in an Islaamic country; if he does not repent and come back to the true religion, he will be killed as a kaafir and apostate, because of the command of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 3017).

It is well-known in Sharee’ah that the punishments (hudood) are not carried out on minors, because they have not yet reached the age of responsibility; but in the case of those who have reached the age of responsibility, the punishment (hadd) applies, without a doubt.

The person who knows the truth and believes in it, then turns his back on it, does not deserve to live. The punishment for apostasy is prescribed for the protection of the religion and as a deterrent to anyone who is thinking of leaving Islaam. There is no doubt that such a serious crime must be met with an equally weighty punishment. If the kuffaar do not give people the freedom to cross a red light, how can we give freedom to people to leave Islaam and disbelieve in Allaah when they want to.**

And here is the other answer:

**This question may be answered by the following points:

(1) This is the ruling of Allaah and His Messenger, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3017

(2) The one who has known the religion which Allaah revealed, entered it and practised it, then rejected it, despised it and left it, is a person who does not deserve to live on the earth of Allaah and eat from the provision of Allaah.

(3) By leaving Islaam, the apostate opens the way for everyone who wants to leave the faith, thus spreading apostasy and encouraging it.

(4) The apostate is not to be killed without warning. Even though his crime is so great, he is given a last chance, a respite of three days in which to repent. If he repents, he will be left alone; if he does not repent, then he will be killed.

(5) If the punishment for murder and espionage (also known as high treason) is death, then what should be the punishment for the one who disbelieves in the Lord of mankind and despises and rejects His religion? Is espionage or shedding blood worse than leaving the religion of the Lord of mankind and rejecting it?

(6) None of those who bleat about personal freedom and freedom of belief would put up with a neighbour’s child hitting their child or justify this as "personal freedom," so how can they justify leaving the true religion and rejecting the sharee’ah which Allaah revealed to teach mankind about His unity and bring justice and fairness to all**

Both the above answers were based on the same hadith of the Prophet. Based on the above, if some one changes his/her religion from Islam to anyother religion, including divine religions, fall under the above. That is because Islam is the most perfect of divine religions and there seems no excuse for leaving one that is perfect to go back to something, which isn't.

However, all rulings on apostates refer to those who Believed and then turned their back to Islam and became disbelievers. These may not be applicable to someone who never believed in the first place. For instance, someone born in a muslim household but never believed Islam and consequently changed his religion. As another example, similarly the first generation qadiyanis are "murtids", but the subsequent generations of qadiyanis can not be considered to be murtids as they were never on the right path at all.

The last two paragraphs above are my opinion. Feel free to disagree. Please provide any other references you can find to counter any point.

Adios!

3

The following hadith is attributed to Hazrat Ali Bin Abi Talib (the Fourth Righteous Caliph):

Narrated 'Ali:

No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari

4

As another example, similarly the first generation qadiyanis are "murtids", but the subsequent generations of qadiyanis can not be considered to be murtids as they were never on the right path at all.<<<<

Of all people, NYAhmadi, you should know better than to use this kind of language in the forum.

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited October 03, 2000).]

5

As I said earlier, you have a perfect right to your opinion, similarly I have a right to mine.

Cheers!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

6

[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
*As I said earlier, you have a perfect right to your opinion, similarly I have a right to mine.
*
[/quote]

umm actually, no. Whereas NYA would simply say, "Go to Hell", what you said, Pristine, is that you actually gain favor with Allah by killing NYA and sending him to Hell.

These are not equal rights of opinion. In fact, it is a good way of eliminating alternative opinions.

[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited October 03, 2000).]

7

Muslims must, MUST realize that hadiths/sunnah which are used as meanings of the Quran and Islam -->REFLECT 7th century!

If you follow the book of Bukhari, then you follow the 7th century Islam. This is 21 st century folks - wake up and get on with it!

There are many things in Bukhari's sahihs that contradict Quran & the Prophet. Some are downright insulting! Even then - people like Pristine will quickly rush & refer to their Bukharis.

Why? Are we incapable of seeking interpretations to the Quran as an Ummah that reflects the current time?

No, we are not!

So, what stands in the way? It's people like Pristine, the mullahs & their Bukharis.

8

Umm…actually that is a good point

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

The issue of Qadiyanis/Ahmadis is actually quite complex, so while I hold my opinion on this matter (as discussed by various other participants in the thread titled “What Being Muslim (or not) Means to You?”), this may not reflect the unified opinion of all muslim scholars. However, for instance in Pakistan, the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadiyan were declared non-muslims, more than 25 years ago in the law, and this ruling is endorsed by many other muslim countries and scholars.

My statement, (“As another example, similarly the first generation qadiyanis are “murtids”, but the subsequent generations of qadiyanis can not be considered to be murtids as they were never on the right path at all”), was based on the same ruling. While the correctness of this ruling may be contested by anyone, legalistically, my opinion is correct.

And hence, once more, I will say: you have a perfect right to your opinion, similarly I have a right to mine

Feel free to disagree.

Adios!

9

[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
**Muslims must, MUST realize that hadiths/sunnah which are used as meanings of the Quran and Islam -->REFLECT 7th century!

If you follow the book of Bukhari, then you follow the 7th century Islam. This is 21 st century folks - wake up and get on with it!

There are many things in Bukhari's sahihs that contradict Quran & the Prophet. Some are downright insulting! Even then - people like Pristine will quickly rush & refer to their Bukharis.

Why? Are we incapable of seeking interpretations to the Quran as an Ummah that reflects the current time?

No, we are not!

So, what stands in the way? It's people like Pristine, the mullahs & their Bukharis.**
[/quote]

faceup: Why are you shoving down your beliefs on others?

The references given by me are for someone who is also of the same school of thought or who accepts Sahih. If you or someone don't accept them, then its up to you or them. They were neither addressed to you nor have I ever disputed the fact that you have a right to your opinion on any matter.

Adios!

Don't Blame me...
C'est La Vie :)

10

Thanx brother Pristine for your decent and fully elaborated reply. These are some of the complex matters (Massail) in Islam and different people of different beliefs have their own ideas and opinions. As far as a common and ignorant person is concerned (for instance me in this case) he looks for something which is more popular but on the same side, me being grown in an environment where people dont go for mere material only but tries for the logic as well. And thats the whole idea of my Question, that ** Why was it ordered to murder the Murtid, or the person who wants to revert from Islam? Why, Islam as a religion of humanity, doesnt allow people to live as they wants to revert back to some other religion **

And my dear ** NY Ahmadi **why dont you come up with something logical instead of cussing others. I need some positive stuff from your side aswell, like what are your believes, what does your books say about it, and as an officially declared Murtid what is your feelings and heartaches.

Anyways Pristine brother Thanx for the informative stuff and I would like to ask you that what are your web resources for Islamic search and studies. I'll be very obliged if you give me these links.
Cio

11

Try this website:
http://www.understanding-islam.com/rp/p-003.htm

The guy here uses arguments from the Quran to state that apostates (people who were once Muslims, but are no longer Muslims) should be killed.

His basis is that apostates do not create unrest in the land, so should not be killed. I think Pristine has shown that any unbeliever automatically creates unrest in the land, and therefore is subject to death.

If the apostate start to preach about the alternate religion, is he creating unrest? Does that mean you can now kill him? And if it does, does that not contradict the concepts of peace and mercy?

12

Pristine Badshah,

I understand where you are coming from. My initial response was probably a bit too hurried, but I meant it (just kidding). What I meant to say was that if religious decrees are endorsed by “popularly elected legislatures” as was the case against Ahmadis in Pakistan, what does that tell you?

Do we need Government of Pakistan to validate our “Religious” beliefs? What if tomorrow the same Government declares that Quran in its current shape is not authentic? So the point is that Governments by character are not qualified to issues such verdicts on people’s religious beliefs. You have to take people’s own words for that. If I say, I am a Muslim, there is no one in the world that has the authority to tell me otherwise.

13

[quote]
Originally posted by freestylla:
**Salam My Dear Friends

My Question is why is it that the punishment of converting from Islam to other religion (i.e Murtid) is only death. And what about those who are born Muslims and didn't choose their religion by their own will and by any chance (may Allah forgive me!!) wants to choose some other religion. Here I mean the Beliefs based on Divine Books like Christianity, Jewism etc etc. Please help me find the true path. **
[/quote]

The most simple answer to your question is that there is no complusions to be or not to be a Muslim. "La ikraha fiddeen" is the spirit of Islam. Quran has clearly stated that "the truth has come to you, it upto you that you accept it or not" and "those who will accept it and obey it will be rewarded and those who will deny it or reject it, will (naturally) suffer"

So be rest assured that one is as free to leave Islam as is to join it as per the Quranic philosophy. "Murtad" is not supposed to get the death sentence but in an Islamic government he will just loose his first class citizen rights and can live in an Islamic society as a Non-Muslim (as per the local minority laws).

14

Sophia.

I agree with the first part of your post, as it relates to those people who are non-believers and are invited to Islam.

I am most definitely interested in knowing the reasoning and references for the second part of your post "‘Murtad’ is not supposed to get the death sentence but in an Islamic government he will just loose his first class citizen rights ".

While I am also not sure what is the distinction between first class citizen rights and second class citizen rights (these are such politically incorrect terms

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

) in a muslim society, the only distinction I can site, off the cuff, is that in a muslim-ruled area the minorities pay jizya (tax) and muslims pay zakat. Other than this, the rights of minoroties should be the same, aren’t they?

Adios!

PS. Yes, I definitely need to do more research on this.

15

NYAhmadi,

No hard feelings, buddy. This is just a discussion

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

While I don’t have immediate plans to come to you with a dagger in my hand

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smash.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

at the same time I am withholding my personal opinion on this matter, as on this forum, it might be construed as an attack on someone’s faith.

So, no dice!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

And as you are a moderator and all, so I must be more wary of you

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggthumb.gif

Adios!

Don’t Blame me…
C’est La Vie

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Pristine (edited October 03, 2000).]

16

posted by NYAhmadi<<. If I say, I am a Muslim, there is no one in the world that has the authority to tell me otherwise.>>

if thats the case than I shall give you an example.

can we muslims call ourselves cristains or Jews? the answer in no why? Because Islam contradicts the basic priciple of Cristanity which is Jesus is the son of god. Cristains dont't call muslims Cristains becuse we don't belive one basic theory of Cristanity!
as every one knows that other than that we belive in the same thing, Right?

So Ahmadi's don't belive one basic principle of Quran and Islam so they can't be called muslims. Shias,sunnis,Ismailies,bohri,wahabi and the rest of the 73 belive everything in the quran to be right when they read Quran they don't understand the surah AHZAAB that mohammed was the last messenger so they contradict the basic fact of Islam now NY I request you to Inteperate the 33:40 after you have done that can you argue with me? And other than the mention of the MAHDI there is no promised prophet if there is please tell me!

[This message has been edited by sabah (edited October 04, 2000).]

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Ahmadies are as stubborn as donkeys<<<

Really? Never knew that.

can we muslims call ourselves cristains or Jews?<<<

I have no problem with what you call yourself. You can call yourself tomatoe if you wish.

18

In his "daura-e-Tarjuma & Tafseer-e-Quran-1997," Dr. Israr Ahmad explained this hukm of Murtid as follows:

"Islamic Government is an ideal government, and to become a murtid, is like to dig out the roots of the Govt. and it is not allowed as it leads to weaken the Islamic rules and regulations."

Note that Islamic Government is a must there.
Plus any other Islamic punishments must be carried out by Islamic Judiciory System, not by any individual as it is oppposite to Islamic Descipline.

Wama Alaina Illal Balagh!
Wallaho Alam!

**Sitaaron Pay Jo Daltay Hain Kamand!**

Shaheen=An Eagle or A Flacon!
How come people come up with the idea that Shaheen is a "gal"????

19

Shaheen,

Thank you for your comments. Your words clicked, where I was also a bit confused, and couldn't understand my confusion. Yes, it is the responisbility of an "Islamic government" to check any such activities and not for the individuals.

Plus, in my opinion, I don't consider the government of Pakistan as an Islamic government

20

[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
**The following hadith is attributed to Hazrat Ali Bin Abi Talib (the Fourth Righteous Caliph):

Narrated 'Ali:

No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari**
[/quote]

In my understanding
As it says in the Hadith "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people..."

So the clear indication is that it is towards Qiyama that this particular Punishment is valid. So it must be the case during the battle between muslims and non-muslims at that time.. and I would agree that in such circumstances a 'murtid' would be considered as a 'deserter'... and all other people/armies in the world have the same punishment for that..

The problem is that we are too used to thinking in 'secular' terms and desertion doesn't ring the same bell.