Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats

[USResident]

Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats

Br. Psyah

@psyah

Peace All

Instead of asking my questions the way I have been. Let’s look at this another way.

Everyone so far feels that rules within the Qur’an are either general or specific. If those rules within the Qur’an that are specific to given conditions and if those conditions are not in place then the relaxing of such rules becomes prevalent.

I agree with this. Infact generalizing the rules or principles derived from specific situations often leads to misinterpretation. An example would be the verses from Surah Taubah that many Islamists use to conduct offensive operations against non-muslims under the context of Jihad. One thing though, when you mention relaxing, it means that rules or agendas are followed that appease the current situation without violating basic tenets of Islam.

@psyah

This is a type of abrogation, but you can call it what you wish. It is only the Hanafi school who call it such, may be, but it is everyone who practices it, though be it in a different guise.

This I do not agree with. The context of your reasoning was that the situation does not exist or hold true, which means there is nothing to abrogate because you are not in a position to even apply the ruling. In this case, there would be no question of overturning the ruling through an abrogation. The context of a situation must first lend itself to a certain ruling before it can be subjected to an abrogation.

@psyah

I personally think that the Qur’an portrays a universal message with conditions that apply throughout time. I also believe that the Sunnah contextualises and sets parameters for the Qur’anic ayat telling us when the rules within the Qur’an become binding and when not.

If you meant to say that it has universal principles then I think I will agree with you. I cannot grasp the notion of timeless conditions. Conditions are time relevant. Principles are not though.

Agree that the Sunnah does contextualise a lot of verses from the Quran and sets and describes the parameters. Examples are prayers and charity. We do not need to go far in this case.

@psyah

Certain things will never be abrogated of ayat pertaining to:

The narration of a story or event in history
Anything to do with Tawheed

Absolutely right.

@psyah

However, some things to do with conduct of one to another may or may not be applicable in certain conditions, I hope people realise this! Therefore I hold onto what I said initially, that is … it is quite possible that everyone is correct but people need to stop being too strict about terminology definitions so one can see that ‘naskh’ is actually an array of things one of which is ‘replacement’ another of which is ‘contextualise’, etc.

I agree with this however the line of discussion is about Mutawatir ahadith superceding the Quran. The context of this discussion is a Maskh which can over turn the ruling of the Quran in a specific situation. I do not believe we are pondering upon the general concept of Naskh but a very specific masala here. As you said if a Sunnah contextualizes the Quran then there should be a relevant verse that adheres itself to the basic premise in a Sunnah or it should be completely absent meaning there is no Quranic ruling on a specific matter and it is only to be found in the Sunnah.

Some people might have been stuck on terminology however I am not. I do agree that a Sunnah can define a set of parameters for a general Quranic command or verse. An example is that of music, which I was discussing a while ago in another thread. People often make music outright haram without realizing the parameters set in the ahadith or its context. One can only realize this when ahadith with opposite rulings are studied as well. There can’t be two rulings on a specific subject given the context is the same.

I am also refering to the argument that the Quran is complete from the perspective of being a mushaf and what was supposed to be propagated to the future generations however it is not complete from the perspective of all revelation that was part of Quran and we only learn such a thing through the ahadith. An example is the hadith of Umar which discusses the verses of Rajm. The ruling is in effect however the verse has been completely textually abrogated. Does that make sense? I know I discussed this with you Br. before in which your reason was that it is defining the parameters of the verse of flogging in the Quran but based on the hadith that would not be true because the hadith states that the Sunnah was following an abrogated verse of the Quran. So now the absense of that verse makes this hadith for stoning conflict with the flogging ayat in Quran unless we admit that some revealed verses of the Quran were not meant to be in there.