Muslims, let this be pondered over

[jewels_of_insignificance]

Let this therefore be pondered over: that if there is a man who does not accept the true Faith because he is yet ignorant and unaware of its truth, of its teachings and its beauties, would it be reasonable to kill such a man forthwith? Nay, this man deserves pity; he deserves to be instructed gently and politely in the truth, beauty and the spiritual benefit of that faith; not that his denial should be met by the sword or the gun. So, the doctrine of Jehad proposed by these sects of Islam, as well as the belief that the time is near when there will arise a bloody Mahdi whose name would be Imam Muhammad, that the Messiah will come down from the heavens for his help, and that both together will kill all non-Muslim people if they deny Islam, is utterly opposed to our moral sense. Is not this the belief which puts out of action all good human qualities and morals, and encourages the qualities of life in the jungle?

• Mirza ghulam ahmad of qadian, the promissed messiah, peace be upon him.

[Adbulmalick]

Jewels,
If there is to be a Messiah, Mahdi - it will be from the family of 'Ahl ul Bayt' or progeny of Prophet Mohammed & Hazrat Ali thru Bibi Fatima(pbut). Any claims of Immamate or Messiah not from Ahl ul Bayt is lame because then nothing stops you from waking up one morning and claiming to be a Messiah. That is the ultimate significance of Hazrat Mohammed Rasool-il-allah being the last Prophet and the significane of Ahl ul Bayt-Immamate being the keeper & intrepreter of the Quran & hadiths, and as a Guide for all mankind.
Sure, one can string up impressive quotes from holy scriptures but without 'Ahl ul Bayt' any claim of Messiah or Immamate is groundless and will eventually collapse.

[NYAhmadiX]

I didn't think that Mohammed dynasty had to be ordered in a Royal and Imperial manner. Passing the crown to descendants of the family alone? Believing so makes Islam more like a Monarchy, and less like a religion. If there is a mention of the sex of the Promised Messiah, and if women are automatically disqualified from being a Promised Messiah, then Islam is a religion that does not treat its followers equally.

Jewel, good to have you back.

[Zalim]

Salam Jewels of Insignificance
Welcome back, long time no see. Where have you been? to see the queen?? :)
We miss our insignificantly significant Jewels :)

Salam Abdul Malik
How are you? hope every thing is fine down there.
By the way Thankx for your comments on my last reply. Tao’s quote perfectly fits for our today’s Ulemas.
"Get rid of your preachers and discard your teachers, and the people will benefit a hundred times"

Now this is in response to your reply above. Please allow me to comment on it. You along with all the Muslims, are exactly legitimate in your view that Mehdi will be from the progeny of Ahlay Bait (we also believe that) and by referring Ali (ra) you mean the same because that’s the only link to the future succession of Mohammed(sa) progeny. Over here many Muslim oversighted the point that the reference could also mean something relevant too. Let me quote something from Quran and Hadith to support my statement.

[quote]

CH. 62 AL-JUMU'AH

1. He it is Who has raised among the Unlettered people a Messenger from among themselves' who recites
   unto them His Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and wisdom, although they were before, in manifest misguidance.

2. And among others from among them who have not yet joined them. He is the Mighty, the Wise.

[/quote]

The later verse in support of the former one, signifies that the Divine Message of the Holy Prophet was meant not only for the Arabs among whom he was raised but for all non-Arabs as well, and not only for his contemporaries but also for the coming generations till the end of time. Or the meaning may be that the Holy Prophet will be raised among another people who have not yet joined his immediate followers.

The reference in the verse and in a well-known saying of the Holy Prophet is to the Second Advent of the Holy Prophet in the person of the Promised Messiah and Mehdi in the Latter Days.

Says Aba Hurairah: *"One Day we were sitting with the Holy Prophet when Siira Jumu'ah was revealed. I asked the Holy Prophet, *"Who are the people to whom the words And among others from among them who have not yet joined them, refer”. Salmaann - the Persian was also sitting among us at that time. Upon my repeatedly asking him the same question, the Prophet(sa) put his hand on Salmaan and said, 'If Faith were to go up to the Pleiades, a man from these would surely find it"
** Bukhari, Vol. 2, Kitab ul Tafseer, Commentry on Sura Jumu’ah

This hadith shows that the verse applies to a man of Persian descent. Now, the Promised Messiah, the Founder of the Abmadiyya Movement, was of Persian descent.

Other sayings of the Holy Prophet speak of the appearance of the Messiah at a time when there would remain nothing of the Qur'an but its words and of Islam but its name i.e., the true spirit of Islamic teaching will be lost. [Baihaqui]. So is true as of today.

Thus the Quran and the Hadith both seem to agree that the present verse refers to the Second Advent of the Holy Prophet(sa) in the person of the Promised Messiah and Mehdi and Hadith confirms his decent from the progeny of Salam Farsi, who In another narration by the Holy Prophet(sa) has been praised as; “Saalman is from our ahlay-bait”, (though he of persian decent).

That’s all for now, catch you later.

wa’salam

xalim :::: [email protected]

[Adbulmalick]

Zalim and NYAhmedi:
1)Zalim: Along with the revisions of certain intrepretations of Quran that are deemed extremist and are being abused, should also come the revisions of the role & process of nomination for the mullahs.
MORE IMPORTANTLY: You state that the Messiah of the Ahmedia sect is Persian and rightfully the Messiah as the holy book prophesizes the Messiah will be of Persian origin; Also, you have quotes re: the coming of another Prophet; the later has been debated rather at length on this Forum, and I wish not to re-open the thread. However, I'll say this: the Quran is allegorial & open to intrepretations except for the Finality of the Prophet.
As mentioned and we both agree that the Messiah or Imam will be a progeny of the House of Prophet Mohammed, Hajrats Ali and Bibi Fatima(pbut) - the Ayl ul Bayt.
Now just being a Persian is not enough as multitudes in India, Pakistan & Afghanistan, etc. claim Persian & Turkish heritage; The Messiah or Imam will have his genealogy to back the claim; the 'rope' goes all the way back and the Messiah or Imam will be from Ahl ul Bayt and people will know him as such.
2)NY - Prophet Mohammed left behind two things (i)the Quran & (ii)Ahl ul Bay and AliAbbas has documented this rather eloquently in a number of threads & posts; the Ahl ul Bayt or Progeny of Hajrats Ali & Bibi Fatima (pbuh) is the SOLE inheritor of Messiah, Mehdi or Immamate. I agree with you with that the Messiah or Imam can be either a man or woman. Also, the Prophet lived a simple life and never claimed 'royal' previleges; you may be alluding to the Royal lifestyle of the Ahmedia religious leader; not everyone can carry a title of Royalty - for one, it is not legal; It is usually decreed by another King or Queen for people of Royal descent or noble lineage.

[AliAbbas]

snipped!

[This message has been edited by AliAbbas (edited May 26, 1999).]

[AliAbbas]

Bismihi Ta’la (In the name of the Most High)
Assalam o alaikum

NYAhmadi > I didn’t think that Mohammed dynasty had to be
NYAhmadi > ordered in a Royal and Imperial manner. Passing
NYAhmadi > the crown to descendants of the family alone? Believing
NYAhmadi > so makes Islam more like a Monarchy, and less like a
NYAhmadi > religion. If there is a mention of the sex of the Promised
NYAhmadi > Messiah, and if women are automatically disqualified
NYAhmadi > from being a Promised Messiah, then Islam is a religion
*NYAhmadi > that does not treat its followers equally. *

I would like to know your opinion to these hadiths, and remember they are authentic by your measure of yard stick …

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said:

The [Islamic] religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh

.

Ref: Sahih Muslim (Arabic version) Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1453, Tradition 10 (English version) Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh), v3, p1010, Tradition #4483 Hadith #3398 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said:

The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men, all of them from Quraysh.

Ref: Sahih Muslim (Arabic version) Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1453, Tradition #6 (English version) Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh), v3, p1010, Tradition #4478 Hadith #3394 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said:

This matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs." He then whispered a sentence. I asked my father what the Prophet said. He said, the Prophet added: "All of them will be from Quraysh.

Ref: Sahih Muslim (Arabic version)Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1452, Tradition #5 (English version) Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh), v3, p1009, Tradition #4477 Hadith #3393 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: I heard the Prophet (peace be upon him)saying,

There will be twelve commanders (Amir)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, the Prophet added, "All of them will be from Quraysh.

Ref: Sahih al-Bukhari (English) Hadith: 9.329, Kitabul Ahkam. (Arabic) 4:165, Kitabul Ahkam. Hadith #6682 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

Other sources that mention the same hadith: Al-Tirmidhi, Sunan, Chapter of Fitan, 2:45 (India) and 4:501 Tradition # 2225 (Egypt) Abu Dawud, Sunan, 3:106, Kitab al-Mahdi. Al-Tayalisi, Musnad, Tradition No. 767 and 1278. Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, 5:86. Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal 13:26-27. Abu Nu’aym al-Isbahani, Hilyat al-‘awliya’ , 4:333

Want to read the Arabic pursue this titles:

Twelve Successors of the Holy Prophet, Murtadha al Askari
www.al-islam.org/twelve

Can you tell me then who these twelve successors are?

Iltimase duas

Ali Abbas
www.al-islam.org

[jewels_of_insignificance]

With reference to the essay by Ali abbass:

The critic has very interestingly, while trying to negate the ahmadiyya belief, supported it. The critic claims the truth of the hadith. the critic must also be knowing the chain of 12 imams associated to his system of belief.

critic believes that the 12 imams include:

1) ali
2) Al-Hasan ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib ( 3-50 ah)
3) Al-Husayn ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib ( 4-61 ah)
4) Ali ibn Al-Husayn ( 38-95 ah)
5) Muhammad ibn Ali ( 57-114 ah)
6) Ja'far ibn Muhammad ( 83-148 ah)
7) Musa bin Ja'far ( 129-183 ah)
8) Ali bin Musa ( 148-203 ah)
9) Muhammad bin Ali ( 195-220 ah)
10) Ali bin Muhammad ( 212-254 ah)
11) Al Hasan bin Ali ( 232-260 ah)
12) Al Hujjat Muhammad ibn al-Hasan (255-300 ah)

So the logical consequence is that a claim to being the thirteenth imam is very logical.

note that 12 people you believe in, account for 300 years. after that, according to the koran,

"He directs the affair from heaven to earth, then it goes back upto him in a day, whose measure is a thousand years of your counting."
( the koran, chapter 32, verse 6)

adding the thousand years to the previous 300 years, it makes 1300 years, after which the only person who claimed to be the messiah was mirza ghulam ahmad of qadian.

An-najmus saqib, a renowned book of your belief claims
" When 1,240 years pass, God will raise Mahdi."
( volume 2, page 209 )

If mirza ghulam ahmad is a liar, who is the true messiah? i'm afraid there are not many a choices.

[AliAbbas]

Bismihi Ta’la (In the name of the Most High)
Assalam o alaikum

What the writer has presented below, is an extreme case of tawil, and usually it is defined as the meaning which opposes the outward literal meaning, and what is called “taw’il of the Qur’an” in ahlal sunna Islam is usually understood in this sense.

Now, who reserves the right to tawil is clarified by the Qur’an itself:

That (this) is indeed a noble Qur’an. In a book kept hidden, which none toucheth save the purified. (LVI: 77-79).

Concerning the Prophet and his Household he says,

Allah’s wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing. (XXXIII: 33).

As proved by these verses, the Holy Qur’an emanates from sources beyond the comprehension of common man. No one can have a full comprehension of the Qur’an save those servants of God whom He has chosen to purify. And the Household of the Prophet are among those pure beings. In another place God says.

Nay, but they denied that (the Qur’an), the knowledge whereof they could not compass, and whereof the interpretation (in events) [ta’wil] hath not yet come into them. (X: 40), (meaning the day of Resurrection when the truth of things will become known).

And again he says,

On the day (the Day of Resurrection) when the fulfillment [ta’wil] thereof (of the whole Qur’an) cometh, those who were before forgetful thereof will say. The messengers of our Lord did bring the Truth! (VII: 53).

.

Jewels > With reference to the essay by Ali abbass:

My essay, as you have termed it is in reference to a claim made by a poster that there is no dynastic succession in Islam. While all the references to the hadiths are un-doubtedly from authentic ahal sunna references, I would like to see the statement reconciled with these hadiths that claim otherwise.

Jewels > The critic has very interestingly, while trying to
Jewels > negate the ahmadiyya belief, supported it. The
Jewels > critic claims the truth of the hadith. the critic must
Jewels > also be knowing the chain of 12 imams associated
Jewels > to his system of belief. critic believes that the 12
*Jewels > imams include: *

1. ali
2. Al-Hasan ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib ( 3-50 ah)
3. Al-Husayn ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib ( 4-61 ah)
4. Ali ibn Al-Husayn ( 38-95 ah)
5. Muhammad ibn Ali ( 57-114 ah)
6. Ja’far ibn Muhammad ( 83-148 ah)
7. Musa bin Ja’far ( 129-183 ah)
8. Ali bin Musa ( 148-203 ah)
9. Muhammad bin Ali ( 195-220 ah)
10. Ali bin Muhammad ( 212-254 ah)
11. Al Hasan bin Ali ( 232-260 ah)
12. Al Hujjat Muhammad ibn al-Hasan (255-300 ah)

Jewels > So the logical consequence is that a claim to being
Jewels > the thirteenth imam is very logical. note that 12 people
*Jewels > you believe in, account for 300 years. after that, *
Jewels > according to the koran, "He directs the affair from
*Jewels > heaven to earth, then it goes back upto him in a day, *
Jewels > whose measure is a thousand years of your counting
*Jewels > ( the koran, chapter 32, verse 6) *

Firstly, I challenge you to produce a hadith that says explicitly that after these 12 Imams there shall be a 13 – thirteenth one. Secondly, while making this claim, you have ignored an altogether important aspect of the belief of the Shia Ithna Ashari muslims, where they subscribe to the 12th Imam as the promised Mahdi (may Allah subhanahu hasten his re-appearance). Hence your argument stands invalid.

*Jewels > adding the thousand years to the previous 300 years, *
Jewels > it makes 1300 years, after which the only person who
Jewels > claimed to be the messiah was mirza ghulam ahmad
*Jewels > of qadian. *

Jewels > An-najmus saqib, a renowned book of your belief
Jewels > claims " When 1,240 years pass, God will raise
*Jewels > Mahdi." ( volume 2, page 209 ) *

A few questions, before we proceed, who is the author of this work? What language is this book written in, where was it published, and what is the chain of narration?

Even if you do find the title, the suggestion to this reference also reflects of your ignorance of the matter altogether, and particularly of Shia Ithna Ashari beliefs. Even a Shia child can tell you that no one knows the time of the appearence of the Mahdi, not even the Mahdi himself! Hence this is a fabrication.

*Jewels > If mirza ghulam ahmad is a liar, who is the true messiah? *
Jewels > i’m afraid there are not many a choices

Lastly, please share an understanding of tawil as expounded by the founder of your religion, Mirza Ghulam Ahmed and also explained in the 5 vol english commentary that was written by his successor. Also who authorized you to indulge in this tawil?

To suggest that I’ll undertake the same understanding of tawil as you have suggested, may be plausible to the followers of Mirza Saheb/his succesors. How-ever this suggestion reflects an a-priori undertaking and acceptance of Mirza’s claim (or who ever indulged in tawil) and right to tawil. Does that make sense?

I bid you and your tawils a blessed day, and also suggest that you do some reading on our beliefs before suggesting to convince us otherwise.

Iltimase dua’s

Ali Abbas
www.al-islam.org

[This message has been edited by AliAbbas (edited May 27, 1999).]

[Adbulmalick]

AliAbbas,
I am truly impressed with your clarity and the rich sources from which you quote.
I agree with you on Quran and Ahl ul Bayt and, that the Imam or Messiah is the keeper & intrepreter of the Quran and spiritual Guide to Mankind.
However, we have a split in the sense that the Shias Ishna Ashari(Twelvers) have deviated from the "rope" that the Quran talks about and its meanings are explicit - The 'Rope' is the Immamat which along with the Quran, we muslims are to hold fast. Where is your Imam, my dear Shia Isna Ashari friends? If he is in occultation/hiding, who are the representative the 'Gaib'Imam stays in touch with and how will you know when he becomes 'Zahir' or reveals himself? Also, a note strongly emphasized here: the twelve Imams of the Shia Isna Ashari are NOT the twelve Imams of the Shia Ismailis and Shia Bohras.
As for my Ahmedi friends - they claim that their Messiah is of Persian heritage and the holy book quotes another prophet after Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)as proof. If your Messiah is the Imam, and, Shias & Ahmedis both agree on Ahl Ul Bayt as the Sole inheritor of the Immamate; can he prove his genealogy to the family/progeny of Ahl ul Bayt? I commend my Ahmedi brothers for their strong belief in Messiah and wish no quarrel but only good wishes for them and informative debate!
Regards,
Abdulmalick

[Zalim]

Abdul Malik !

Thankyou for your concern and time.

Sir, over here I have quoted a tafseer from Bukhari’s Hadith book. Does it mean anything to you?? If you have access to this book then please Go check it out.

Neither we have comprehended these words in our backyards, nor we have crafted Mehdi being Persian in our attics. Holy Prophet(sa) said that the a MAN from Persian progeny will bring back the Quran.(not a MAN from the house of Salaman(ra)). This is written in your BOOKS, which are meant to be kept in your lockers. Its not that I am imposing such Hadiths and verses on Mirza sahib. Please go through them by yourself, if you want to prosper. You people just argue without any sound reasoning.

Another point, though its written in hard copies that Mehdi and Messiah will be from Ahlay-Bait, but no where its mentioned that the progeny will follow Ali(ra) or Fatima(ra). Can you refer me anything?

Coming of another prophet, despite of lengthy debates was turned fruitless just because of your limited knowledge and strong false beliefs so its useless to discuss it further on such forums. When I presented a simple and easily interpretable verses (i.e. 7:36&37) you people fail to accept it because you dont belong to Adam’s progeny. Are you?

God only help those who lean towards him and seek his guidance and ask for his forgiveness.

xalim ::::: [email protected]

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited May 27, 1999).]

[AliAbbas]

Bismihi Ta’la (In the name of the Most High)
Assalam o alaikum ….

Zalim > Neither we have comprehended these words our
Zalim > my backyards, nor we have crafted Mehdi being
Zalim > Persian in our attics. Holy Prophet(sa) said that the
Zalim > a MAN from Persian progeny will bring back the
*Zalim > Quran.(not a MAN from the house of Salaman(ra)). *
Zalim > This is written in your BOOKS, which are meant to
Zalim > be kept in your lockers. Its not that I am imposing
Zalim > such Hadiths and verses on Mirza sahib. Please go
*Zalim > through them by yourself, if you want to prosper. *
*Zalim > You people just argue without any sound reasoning. *

Let us look at the tradition with the correct translation as under:

The Prophet said: "Salman is from us ahlul bayt.”

which means he is our agent and is attached to us ahlul bayt. In fact, Salman was an agent and a trustee for ahlul bayt to the end of his life-time. His affinity to ahlul bayt was to the extent that he was attached to them. Salman was one of the best companions of the Prophet. It is narrated that:

The Messenger of Allah said:

“Certainly Allah commanded me to love four persons and informed me that He loves them.” The companions asked the Prophet: “O’ Messenger of Allah, who are those four persons?” The Prophet replied: “'Ali is from them (repeating that three times), Abu Dhar, Salman al-Farsi, and Miqdad.”

Ref:

1. Sunan, Ibn Maja, v1, p52, tradition: 149
2. al-Mustadrak, al-Hakim, v3, p130
3. Musnad, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p356
4. Fadha’il al-Sahaba, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p648, tradition: 1103
5. Hilyatul Awliyaa, Abu Nu’aim, v1, p172

Notice that the Prophet said, “Salman is from us ahlul bayt”. This does not necessarily mean that “Salman is one of us ahlul bayt”. The Arabic word min has different meanings. In the above tradition (about Salman) as well as many other traditions mindoes not mean one of. For instance, Bukhari records in chapter: The Umra of al Qada, [v5, p389, tradition: 553]

The Prophet said to 'Ali: “You are from me, and I am from you”

There is no mention of ahlul bayt here. So if we suppose that the only meaning of min is one of, then the saying of the Prophet will become:

'Ali is one of me and I am one of 'Ali.

Now, similarly it is narrated that:

The Messenger of Allah said: “Husain is from me and I am from Husain.”

Ref:

1. Musnad, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v4, p172
2. Fadha’il al-Sahaba, Ahmad Hanbal*, v2, p772, tradition: 1361
3. al-Mustadrak, al-Hakim*, v3, 4. p177
4. Amali, Abu Nu’aim al-Isbahani, p64
5. al-Kuna wal Asmaa, al-Dulabi, v1, p88
6. al-Tabarani, v3, p21
7. Adab by al-Bukhari, also al-Tirmidhi and Ibn Maja, as quoted in al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqa, Ibn Hajar Haithami, Ch. 11, section 3, p291
8. Mishkat al-Masabih, English Version, tradition: 6160

Again, if we suppose that the only meaning of min is “one of”, then the saying of the Prophet will become:

“Husain is one of me and I am one of Husain.”

So this does not make sense either (specially the second phrase which is “The Prophet is one of al-Husain”).

One meaning for the saying of the Prophet who said: Husain is from me and I am from al-Husain, is that al-Husain is attached to him and he is attached to al-Husain. In other words, the path of the Prophet Muhammad and the path of al-Husain are non-separable. And their instructions are the same and will not contradict each other.

As to the Prophetic tradition shared from the work of Bukhari’s Sahih, in the volume on the Prophetic Commentary to the Qur’an, v6, Book 60, Number 420:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

While we were sitting with the Prophet Surat Al-Jumu’a was revealed to him, and when the Verse, "And He (Allah) has sent him (Muhammad) also to other (Muslims)…’ (62.3) was recited by the Prophet, I said, “Who are they, O Allah’s Apostle?” The Prophet did not reply till I repeated my question thrice. At that time, Salman Al-Farisi was with us. So Allah’s Apostle put his hand on Salman, saying, “If Faith were at (the place of) ath-thuraiya (pleiades, the highest star), even then (some men or man from these people (i.e. Salman’s folk) would attain it.”

It is important to understand this hadith in the context of the aya that was revealed. As the noble Qur’an states:

It is He who has sent amongst the un-lettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His signs, to sanctify them and to instruct them in scripture and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error. As well as others of them, who have not already joined them: And he is exalted in Might, Wise.(al Jum’ah, 62:2-3)

This tradition is then expounded by the imams of the ahlul bayt as follows. In one of the hadith Imam Sadiq says:

Very soon Kufa will be empty of the believers. [Religious] knowledge will disappear from that region the way a snake disappears from its abode into a hole in the earth, [without leaving any trace]. Then it will reappear in the city known as Qumm. That city will become the treasure of religious knowledge and excellence. From there it will spread throughout the world, thoroughly eliminating ignorance in matters of religion among the destitute, including women [who will participate in this process of learning anew about Islam].

Continuing,

This will happen close to the appearance of our Qa’im. In this way, God will make Qumm and its inhabitants a substitute for His proof. If it does not happen so, the earth will sink, engulfing its inhabitants, and there will remain no proof. Religious knowledge will spread across nations from Qumm and God’s proof will have been provided to all people in such a way that there will not be a single person on earth who will not have heard about the religion and its wisdom. It will be following this event that our Qa’im will appear. God’s punishment and tribulation will be ready for execution, because God exacts His revenge only when the people have rejected His proof.(Safinat al-bihar, hadith related under 'Qumm)

In another place the Imam says:

God made the city of Kufa and its inhabitants to serve as a proof over all other places. He will make Qumm also a proof to serve over other places, and through its inhabitants He will make an argument against all those, including humans and jinns, who reject the proof of His existence. God will not disgrace and humiliate Qumm and its peoples; on the contrary they will always enjoy God’s grace and support.

He then went on to say:

The religion and the religious in Qumm, being deficient, will not draw the attention of the people. Had it not been that they were going to serve as God’s proof both the city and its inhabitants would have perished, and there would have remained no divine proof for the rest of the world. In addition, the heavens would not have remained secure and no warning would have been given to the people. Qumm and its inhabitants will remain immune from all the calamities. There will come a time when Qumm and its residents will become a proof for God’s existence for the entire world. This will happen during the occultation of our Qa’im until he appears. If this does not happen, then the earth will engulf its inhabitants. God’s angels will remove all afflictions and calamities from the people of Qumm. Any oppressor who commits aggression against Qumm will be destroyed by those who fight against these oppressors. Furthermore, they will be met with distressful calamity or will encounter a powerful enemy who will keep them occupied. Just as these oppressors would have forgotten remembrance of God, God will make them forget Qumm and its inhabitants. (Ibid).

Imam 'Ali b. Abi Talib predicted the following about Qumm:

There will be a man from Qumm who will call people towards truth. Some will respond to his call and will rally around him like pieces of iron [that are drawn towards a magnet]. Strong winds will not be able to move them from their place. They will not be tired of warfare and will be fearless. They trust in none but God. At the end the victory is for those who are godfearing.(Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 60, p. 216.)

Of-course, we all know that the city of Qumm is in Iran and is the institution of religious learning for the Shi’ites. Any thoughts?

Zalim > Another point, though its written in hard copies that
Zalim > Mehdi and Messiah will be from Ahlay-Bait, but no
Zalim > where its mentioned that the progeny will follow
*Zalim > Ali(ra) or Fatima(ra). Can you refer me anything? *

As to the claim that the Mahdi being of persian descent, consider a tradition from the Messenger of Allah,

The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatima (the Prophet’s daughter).

Ref:

1. Sunan, Abi Dawud, English version, Ch. 36, tradition: 4271 (narrated by Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet)
2. Sunan, Ibn Maja, v2, tradition: 4086
3. al-Nisa’i and al-Baihaqi, and others as quoted in: al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqa, Ibn Hajar al-Haithami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249

And as to his following ahl al bayt, consider this tradition from the Messenger of Allah:

al-Mahdi is one of us ahl al bayt.

Ref:

1. Sunan, Ibn Maja, v2, tradition: 4085

Need any explanation?

Zalim > God only help those who lean towards him and seek
*Zalim > his guidance and ask for his forgiveness. *

I shall address the Quranic ayas (7:26-7) in an entirely seperate post, since that issue merits a response on it’s own, insha 'Allah.

I can only sense the need for the Ahmadies to strip and deny the ahlul bayt of their due right. I’ll end this with a tradition:

I am leaving for you two precious and weighty Symbols that if you adhere to both of them you shall not go astray after me. They are: the Book of Allah and my progeny, that is my ahl al bayt. The Merciful has informed me that these two shall not separate from each other till they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise).

1. Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 662-663,328
2. al-Mustadrak, al-Hakim, chapter: Understanding (the virtues) of Companions, v3, pp 109,110,148,533 who wrote this tradition is authentic (sahih) based on the criteria of the two shaykhs (Bukhari and Muslim).
3. Sunan, Daarami, v2, p432
4. Musnad, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v3, pp 14,17,26,59, v4, pp 366,370-372,v5, pp 182,189,350,366,419
5. Fadha’il al-Sahaba, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p585, tradition: 990
6. al-Khasa’is, al-Nisa’i, pp 21,30
7. al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqa, Ibn Hajar Haithami, Ch. 11, section 1, p230
8. al-Kabir, al-Tabarani, v3, pp 62-63,137
9. Kanz al-Ummal, al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, chapter: al-I’tisam bi Habl Allah v1 p44.
10. Tafsir, Ibn Kathir (complete version), v4, p113, under commentary of verse 42:23 of Quran (four traditions).
11. al-Tabaqat al-Kubra, Ibn Sa’d, v2, p194, Pub. Dar al-Sadr, Lebanon.
12. al-Jami’ al-Saghir, al-Suyuti, v1, p353, and also in v2
13. Majma’ al-Zawa’id, al-Haithami, v9, p163
14. al-Fatih al-Kabir, al-Binhani, v1, p451
15. Usudul Ghaba fi Ma’rifat al-Sahaba, Ibn al-Athir, v2, p12
16. Jami’ al-Usul, Ibn al-Athir, v1, p187
17. History, Ibn Asakir, v5, p436
18. al-Taj al-Jami’ Lil Usul, v3, p308
19. al-Durr al-Manthur, al-Hafidh al-Suyuti, v2, p60
20. Yanabi al-Mawadda, al-Qunduzi al-Hanafi, pp 38,183
21. Abaqat al-Anwar, v1, p16 … and many more …

Allahuma Salle Ala Muhammadin Wa Ale Muhammad

Ali Abbas
www.al-islam.org

[This message has been edited by AliAbbas (edited May 27, 1999).]

[jewels_of_insignificance]

ali abbass,

my fellow ponderer over religion, please consider my request of making your essays short and to the point. Long essays are confusing and pointless. By mixing two discussions and writing posts long enough to confuse, i do not think that you will be able to prove your point.
What i am trying to say is, that i am here discussing this as a SEEKER OF TRUTH and am not here to negate or refuse your ideas. However true your ideas may be, there is no use of posting them here until they are comprehendable. if you think you know the truth, i request you to have the thought of explaining me the truth, rather than plainly trying to prove me false at all costs.

i'm starting off the discussion again from the last point you made, the meaning of min. if new or older points are to be introduced into the discussion, please try not to quote the whole message of the counterpart, avoid unnecessary and unfruitful points, and organize your reply to make it more easy for us to understand it. this way you will be helping is see the truth, rather than confusing us and repelling us away from it.

Lets consider the only the last point you made, and discuss along it. discussing ONE point at a time is easier. all the points discusses here are inter related, and if one is proved, the rest should be taken as obviously understood.

You have rightly said that min has been often used in the sense of "with". being a learned personin arabic, if you are, you must be aware that both "ma'a" and "min" can often be used for each other. "ma'a" means "with" but has been often used as "min" or "among". similarly "min" has also been used for "ma'a". however, whenever such things happen, RULES OF GRAMMER are applied.

you claim that min can not only mean "one of". true, my friend, but

• when MIN is used for a SINGLE relating to single, it means MA'A
• When MIN is used for a SINGLE relating to a GROUP it ONLY means "one of".

Therefore it must be taken that salmaan is ONE OF the ahl-e-bait.

If you reject the above point on any grounds, you must not forget that:

"One Day we were sitting with the Holy Prophet when Siira
Jumu'ah was revealed. I asked the Holy Prophet, "Who are the people to
whom the words And among others from among them who have not yet joined
them, refer”. Salmaann - the Persian was also sitting among us at that time.
Upon my repeatedly asking him the same question, the Prophet(sa) put his
hand on Salmaan and said, 'If Faith were to go up to the Pleiades, a man from
these would surely find it"
Bukhari, Vol. 2, Kitab ul Tafseer, Commentry on Sura Jumu’ah

[jewels_of_insignificance]

please do not mix any more unneeded points in the discussion. if this point goes your way, all points go your way by default.