Muslims did not evolve from apes.

[Med911]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

@psyah

Peace brother Monk

Evolution is not compatible with Islam or with science ... According to what I have read ...

I'll try to understand why you are saying this from the post above ... But I feel your conclusion is not right. Evolution requires us to say that creatures become other creatures (through mutations generation after generation) and the Qur'an does not say this ... Gradually becoming another animal would require many subspecies of all creatures some that indistinguishable from other creatures in both DNA and shape. We don't have a spectrum of DNA that merges we are all very distant from one another.

It seems you actual argument is pinned on the difference between chicken, chimp and human ... Please elaborate on what you mean by one letter difference between chimp and chicken and 18 between human and chimp. According to most theories I have heard chimps are our closest DNA cousins.

Oh god here we go again. Pages, LITERALLY pages, of endlessly long drawn out discussions and debate on the subject between you me and many others on this forum, only to return to the same place we began...

Very well... Once more, the Koran doesnt need to be read literally, and we dont need to assume that it contains every specif detail of how mankind was formed...

We DO have a spectrum of DNA that merges. We can map our closest relations among the species by the degree of Genetic similarity. So Chimps are currently our closest living cousins (prior to them we have evidence of the Neanderthals among others), then the Gorillas on down. We have a fossil record that demonstrates how our ancestors evolved modern features over Millions of years...

We understand how DNA works, we understand how selection works, the mechanism is all there, we have a fossil record... What we dont have is a time machine to see it all happen; but we do have more then enough to infer that we evolved from other creatures over millions of years. Unless we are to believe that God simply made everything the way it is, and left all that evidence to the contrary just for a laugh as you English would say.

[psyah]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

@Med911

Oh god here we go again. Pages, LITERALLY pages, of endlessly long drawn out discussions and debate on the subject between you me and many others on this forum, only to return to the same place we began…

Very well… Once more, the Koran doesnt need to be read literally, and we dont need to assume that it contains every specif detail of how mankind was formed…

We DO have a spectrum of DNA that merges. We can map our closest relations among the species by the degree of Genetic similarity. So Chimps are currently our closest living cousins (prior to them we have evidence of the Neanderthals among others), then the Gorillas on down. We have a fossil record that demonstrates how our ancestors evolved modern features over Millions of years…

We understand how DNA works, we understand how selection works, the mechanism is all there, we have a fossil record… What we dont have is a time machine to see it all happen; but we do have more then enough to infer that we evolved from other creatures over millions of years. Unless we are to believe that God simply made everything the way it is, and left all that evidence to the contrary just for a laugh as you English would say.

Peace Monk

Please avoid arguing during Ramadan … since it has not started yet …

Please allow me to dissect what you wrote:

Monk Claim 1 - We DO have a spectrum of DNA that merges.

What does that mean? Whose DNA merges with what? An explanation here would be worthwhile.

Monk Claim 2 - We can map our closest relations among the species by the degree of Genetic similarity.
You cannot use the term “closest relations” when you are arguing about a process that is supposed to show that we have “closest relations” in the animal kingdom. What you are actually saying is similarity of genetics is the premise of determining evolutionary proximity. However, this is still controversial as it means we will be genetically very similar to many life forms that are not really that physically similar to us at all. Visual similarity is not always the same as genetic similarity.

Monk Claim 3 - So Chimps are currently our closest living cousins (prior to them we have evidence of the Neanderthals among others), then the Gorillas on down.

This claim concludes and builds from the previous assumption. None of this is relevant because it cascades from the same unsubstantiated assumption that we are related.

Monk Claim 4 - We have a fossil record that demonstrates how our ancestors evolved modern features over Millions of years…
Again this is using terminology that is the focus of debate. You can’t call them “ancestors” yet – that is what is up for debate. We do have a fossil record – but fossils don’t tell us who sired who. Do they? And how detailed would the fossil record need to be in order to even explain gradual shift of genetics? The dominant idea behind evolution is that it happens gradually – however that gradual aspect is not seen in the fossil record there are not millions of variants of species that resemble humans and it is not a continuous spectrum of beings. In fact they have found more advanced forms earlier in time and they had to modify their theories. Also they may have only about 5 or 6 clearly distinct species that may be another form of animal or an extinct race of humans. It is like trying to make a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle with only 5 pieces.

Monk Claim 5 - We understand how DNA works,

Yes … but that understanding is based on tRNA and requires base pairs that are equal in number. So despite being genetically similar we have the huge step change of chromosomes to contend with … If anything genetics is less favourable for evolutionary pathways than it is favourable.

Monk Claim 6 - We understand how selection works,

Yes we do … So far all studies under the umbrella of Selection does not change a species it only affects the phenotype.

Monk Claim 7 - the mechanism is all there,

No the mechanism for speciation is only theorised and there are at least two contradicting theories on this.

Monk Claim 8 - we have a fossil record…

See response to Claim 4.

Monk Claim 9 - What we dont have is a time machine to see it all happen;

Agreed

Monk Claim 10 - but we do have more then enough to infer that we evolved from other creatures over millions of years.

Unsubstantiated – we don’t have enough at all.

Monk Claim 11 - Unless we are to believe that God simply made everything the way it is, and left all that evidence to the contrary just for a laugh as you English would say
This is not true … there is more than one explanation.

Possibility 1 – Mass mutation theory – This is the idea that species do not evolve but mutate rapidly in one generation en masse – i.e. a whole community would change into another species together. This theory beats evolution because it better reflects the fossil record and it beats it on the basis that there will be mates immediately available for the community to continue breeding.

Possibility 2 – Speciation Limited to less beings theory – This is based on the idea that human life is extra-terrestrial – i.e. from Jannah. We only appear to be like animals. It is a passive acceptance of evolution in all other physical life forms.

Possibility 3 – Traditional Creationism – Creatures prepared as they are - a pair - male and female.

Possibility 4 – Mass alteration theory – That a whole community of living being changes while they are alive in their own life time to end up as different creatures.

Possibility 5 – Veiled Fossil Life form creations – It is possible that all life is already there from the beginning but only becomes seen and acknowledged when it is discovered by people. The discovery coincides with the appearance. In other words there is no evidence of their prior existence, but the moment they get discovered then traces of them appear in the fossil record as though they were unveiled. People will find what they look for – that could be that things are only brought in to existence when we look for them. When they come they have always been so the sudden appearance is always questioned.

[Med911]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

@psyah

Peace Monk

Please avoid arguing during Ramadan … since it has not started yet …

Please allow me to dissect what you wrote:

Monk Claim 1 - We DO have a spectrum of DNA that merges.

What does that mean? Whose DNA merges with what? An explanation here would be worthwhile.

Monk Claim 2 - We can map our closest relations among the species by the degree of Genetic similarity.
You cannot use the term “closest relations” when you are arguing about a process that is supposed to show that we have “closest relations” in the animal kingdom. What you are actually saying is similarity of genetics is the premise of determining evolutionary proximity. However, this is still controversial as it means we will be genetically very similar to many life forms that are not really that physically similar to us at all. Visual similarity is not always the same as genetic similarity.

Monk Claim 3 - So Chimps are currently our closest living cousins (prior to them we have evidence of the Neanderthals among others), then the Gorillas on down.

This claim concludes and builds from the previous assumption. None of this is relevant because it cascades from the same unsubstantiated assumption that we are related.

Monk Claim 4 - We have a fossil record that demonstrates how our ancestors evolved modern features over Millions of years…
Again this is using terminology that is the focus of debate. You can’t call them “ancestors” yet – that is what is up for debate. We do have a fossil record – but fossils don’t tell us who sired who. Do they? And how detailed would the fossil record need to be in order to even explain gradual shift of genetics? The dominant idea behind evolution is that it happens gradually – however that gradual aspect is not seen in the fossil record there are not millions of variants of species that resemble humans and it is not a continuous spectrum of beings. In fact they have found more advanced forms earlier in time and they had to modify their theories. Also they may have only about 5 or 6 clearly distinct species that may be another form of animal or an extinct race of humans. It is like trying to make a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle with only 5 pieces.

Monk Claim 5 - We understand how DNA works,

Yes … but that understanding is based on tRNA and requires base pairs that are equal in number. So despite being genetically similar we have the huge step change of chromosomes to contend with … If anything genetics is less favourable for evolutionary pathways than it is favourable.

Monk Claim 6 - We understand how selection works,

Yes we do … So far all studies under the umbrella of Selection does not change a species it only affects the phenotype.

Monk Claim 7 - the mechanism is all there,

No the mechanism for speciation is only theorised and there are at least two contradicting theories on this.

Monk Claim 8 - we have a fossil record…

See response to Claim 4.

Monk Claim 9 - What we dont have is a time machine to see it all happen;

Agreed

Monk Claim 10 - but we do have more then enough to infer that we evolved from other creatures over millions of years.

Unsubstantiated – we don’t have enough at all.

Monk Claim 11 - Unless we are to believe that God simply made everything the way it is, and left all that evidence to the contrary just for a laugh as you English would say
This is not true … there is more than one explanation.

Possibility 1 – Mass mutation theory – This is the idea that species do not evolve but mutate rapidly in one generation en masse – i.e. a whole community would change into another species together. This theory beats evolution because it better reflects the fossil record and it beats it on the basis that there will be mates immediately available for the community to continue breeding.

Possibility 2 – Speciation Limited to less beings theory – This is based on the idea that human life is extra-terrestrial – i.e. from Jannah. We only appear to be like animals. It is a passive acceptance of evolution in all other physical life forms.

Possibility 3 – Traditional Creationism – Creatures prepared as they are - a pair - male and female.

Possibility 4 – Mass alteration theory – That a whole community of living being changes while they are alive in their own life time to end up as different creatures.

Possibility 5 – Veiled Fossil Life form creations – It is possible that all life is already there from the beginning but only becomes seen and acknowledged when it is discovered by people. The discovery coincides with the appearance. In other words there is no evidence of their prior existence, but the moment they get discovered then traces of them appear in the fossil record as though they were unveiled. People will find what they look for – that could be that things are only brought in to existence when we look for them. When they come they have always been so the sudden appearance is always questioned.

Nothing but love buddy.. No arguing. It never was an argument. In the end, your free to believe what you like.

Will respond with something more substantive soon.

[psyah]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

@Med911

Nothing but love buddy.. No arguing. It never was an argument. In the end, your free to believe what you like.

Will respond with something more substantive soon.

That's weird for some reason I thought you were Monk ...
@Monk .... so so sorry ...

[Med911]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

@psyah

That's weird for some reason I thought you work Monk ...

You seemed a bit confused if im being honest.

[psyah]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

@Med911

You seemed a bit confused if im being honest.

Only about the name of the poster ... that was a glance ... but the topic at hand is another matter and I hope you are not going to use sophistical reasoning to wriggle out of this ...

[Monk]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

@psyah

That’s weird for some reason I thought you were Monk …
@Monk … so so sorry …

I make one claim every 6 months..

[Mughal1]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

Has humanity bothered to try and understand the quran properly? See HERE and HERE.

[Mughal1]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

@Monk

(Title was to get your attention only) :D

So finally I watched development of evolution theory beginning middle and end.

Beginning. Darwin observation of connection between species. He did awesome work. And toward his best work he noticed species get shaped.. different shapes in closely related species... kicked in and develop in embryo stage.. in the womb.

Middle. Discovery of DNA and scientists going berserk. They thought dna was responsible for every thing. And wish for change(natural selection ) Used DNA as a tool

End(present) Scientists found switches which turn DNA of and on to create thing(arm legs brains) in people and animals. At this point scientists went back to Darwin. And noticed every thing did occurred in embryo. Like they put color making DNA and thumb DNA and will see that blue thumb developing in mouse embryo.

things happened ... things happened... Scientist got hooked to what make humans human... from evolution stand point. From DAN to wards human. They found ability to use thumb.... use *pen *...tool etc... which is missing in any other animal including cousins chimps. (pen and tools words coming from people who discovered it.)

Fine ... Then they find out why our brains were so large...and what it meant. So they found gorilla had a muscle size of human thigh muscle to exert pressure on jaw muscle that stooped its brain growth.

This one chick with super computer put human chimp and other animal DNA to compare... to see where chimp were close to humans.. where close to animals. At one point different between hen and chimp DNA was one letter. With human it was 18 letters....in DNA terms its like light years away.

That part is related to developing cortex in brain.. which is responsible for language mathematics etc etc

Two/three things I would like to mention.

1- Objection Why every thing which looks same have same blue print... is like saying why God did not come up with DNA version 2.0.... ;We know God get stuff perfect in first go... so never an up grade.

2-After accepting point 1, Islam and Evolution have 0 contradiction!!

3- And most important. Remember RED BLUE AND GREEN from above.

RED **---> where it happen. **BLUE & GREEN-----> what make us human.

So putting them together tells.. where and how we became human.

Now read this.

======surah al alaq(first revolation)============== [RIGHT] [/RIGHT] Recite in the name of your Lord who created -[96:1]

Created man from a clinging substance.[96:2]

Recite, and your Lord is the most Generous -[96:3]

Who taught by the pen -[96:4]

                    Taught  man  that  which  he  knew  not[96:5] 

==================Sura rehman(God tell his favours upon men and jin)==================

Created man,[55:3]

[And] taught him ** eloquence**.[55:4]

--All those scientist who did research on third stage, were still alive in 2012.. so its pretty recent developments.

--Eloquence = bayan in arabic.... in urdu means talk and stuff...

PS: Please stop arguing about evolution. Its does not contradict quran.. if you see red blue and green above... its like some one had a time machine... they came to 2012 took all the research.. went back and wrote down..

PS2: psychological point: Don't other people tell that its your problem...you think its your problem and you start defending it. Be quiet and know the problem first. Thank you.

Dear monk sb, the quran needs understanding in light of real world realities. It does not show direct creation of individual things but puts everything into a chain of events.

What does it mean when Allah tells heavens and earth were one unit of creation and we separated them into their individual components? A clear proof that all things come from the very same thing. However each and everything was brought about in an orderly way as the creation process unfolded in form of events.

Blind evolution or things creating themselves is the idea that makes no sense because anything that comes into being needs a cause and not just cause but also purposeful cause that involves designing and planning so that intended end result is achieved.

The quran clearly shows in its verses that natural mechanisms were used to separate things from each other ie forces of nature and laws of nature brought about all things as Allah planned them for his purpose.

Therefore scripture and science go hand in hand. Science cannot answer questions the scripture can answer with certainty and scripture cannot answer any question with certainty unless the scripture is read in light of real world realities.

regards and all the best.

[ajazali]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

I agree with blind evolution point.

There could some sort of evolution as quran mentions at some places.
[71:17] And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.

[Med911]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

@psyah

Only about the name of the poster ... that was a glance ... but the topic at hand is another matter and I hope you are not going to use sophistical reasoning to wriggle out of this ...

Every point i make brother Psyah is well reasoned and logical with one thought flowing smoothly to the next as of a gentle stream flowing from an almighty river, ready to enrich the soil that is the mind.

[psyah]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

@Med911

Every point i make brother Psyah is well reasoned and logical with one thought flowing smoothly to the next as of a gentle stream flowing from an almighty river, ready to enrich the soil that is the mind.

We'll put that to test as well.

[Med911]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

@psyah

We'll put that to test as well.

Sure man. Lets do the dance. Where do you see the disconnect ?

Islam as I see it, doesn't reveal everything we could possibly want to know about the Universe. Which of course it couldn't, because lets face it, thats logistically impossible.

Indeed, there are many things left to be discovered, and we are encouraged in Islam to make those discoveries ourselves.

The evidence of Evolution is staring us in the face. It makes logical sense, its elegant... I dont see why one should assume it isnt the mechanism through which Humanity arose. To ignore the evidence and try to knit-pick simply for the sake of propping up some misguided (in my opinion) dogma, seems to run counter to the very spirit and essence of Islam.

Finally... We could assume that god simply created the Universe and all its inhabitants in one shot as they are. But then what about the evidence ? Evolution seems to permeate the natural world. Natural selection is the mechanism at the core of existence. The concept of fitness seems to not only apply to the natural world, but everything else as well. Why would god bypass one of the core mechanisms governing the Universe, when the end result is the same, the rise of man ?

[psyah]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

@Med911

Sure man. Lets do the dance. Where do you see the disconnect ?

Islam as I see it, doesn't reveal everything we could possibly want to know about the Universe. Which of course it couldn't, because lets face it, thats logistically impossible.

Indeed, there are many things left to be discovered, and we are encouraged in Islam to make those discoveries ourselves.

The evidence of Evolution is staring us in the face. It makes logical sense, its elegant... I dont see why one should assume it isnt the mechanism through which Humanity arose. To ignore the evidence and try to knit-pick simply for the sake of propping up some misguided (in my opinion) dogma, seems to run counter to the very spirit and essence of Islam.

Finally... We could assume that god simply created the Universe and all its inhabitants in one shot as they are. But then what about the evidence ? Evolution seems to permeate the natural world. Natural selection is the mechanism at the core of existence. The concept of fitness seems to not only apply to the natural world, but everything else as well. Why would god bypass one of the core mechanisms governing the Universe, when the end result is the same, the rise of man ?

Peace Med911

The main reason for rejecting evolution or let's say not accepting it to be fact is because scientifically it is yet not fact ... It is not a law merely a theory. And the reason is because it has not passed a falsification test and it is not falsifiable rather it has grown arms and legs to modify the base theory and in each stage the supporters of evolution are not offering us anything that we can use to falsify it. The religious motivation stems from the evolutionists ... They say if we don't accept evolution then we are forced to accept creation. That is a silly thing to say ... Our mechanism for determining new species so far has been "discovery" ... It is quite possible that all creatures are present somewhere in an ecosystem but only become "discovered" when we are destined to discover them ... It is a huge planet big enough to evade our detection every time ... Big enough for just one male and one female of a given species to miraculously come in to existence or other method as described above. Perhaps you can look at the alternative ways I proposed above and see how they might fall short of theory of evolution.

[ajazali]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

If evolution has to take place it has to take creation to evolve from one form into another. From nothing, nothing will evolve.

[_Lahore_Ka_Cheetah]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

@psyah

Evolution is not compatible with Islam or with science ... According to what I have read ...

Because most mondern-day Islamic scholars don't even know the basics of the cell theory. I, for one, actually see absolutely no qualms between evolution and Islam. However, I disbelieve in evolution purely on statistical and genetic incongruities. If these congruities are resolved, I will believe in evolution whole-heartedly, and that does not interfere with my understanding of Islam.

Quran says man is made from clay/earth/elements, the same stuff all animals are made from.

[Anjul]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

@_Lahore_Ka_Cheetah

Because most mondern-day Islamic scholars don't even know the basics of the cell theory. I, for one, actually see absolutely no qualms between evolution and Islam. However, I disbelieve in evolution purely on statistical and genetic incongruities. If these congruities are resolved, I will believe in evolution whole-heartedly, and that does not interfere with my understanding of Islam.

Quran says man is made from clay/earth/elements, the same stuff all animals are made from.

Vedas also says bodies are made from elements "panch tatva"

[Monk]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

@Anjul

Vedas also says bodies are made from elements "panch tatva"

did you know vedas speak about prophet ibrahim ??
And much more islamic stuff ??? Which can make you think. ...

[Anjul]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

@Monk Actually I am not a religious man but curiosity makes me read books like Bhagwat Gita, The Quran (english version by Maulana Wahiduddin Khan, Goodword books), Bible (hindi version, new Bible publishers) in leisure. I don't have deep knowledge in any of them. I have not read Vedas yet but 5-6 years back I used to listen Morari Bapu and Chinmayanand Bapu, in pravachans they quote beautiful teachings from Quran, tales of sufi saints etc I did not cross-check that time. If you know, share.

[Monk]

Re: Muslims did not evolve from apes.

hmmm