Re: Muslims converting to other religions
very pragmatic, and in my opinion, the correct approach…
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
Anwar please provide the reference, I want to make sure the correct rendition is used.
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
if somone leaves islam for another faith, it is NOT treason. beliefs are a personal matter and the state has no business in defining which beliefs a person should have. It would be considered treason if they plot against the muslim state or if they help the enemy.
Side note, it may well be treason if faith is intertwined with state. Now, you may not approve that organization...but it certainly did exist in the past, and continues to exist today. So in a political sense, it's akin to saying believe what you want, but you'll live by and respect the rules...in every way it is akin to seeking to control or kill Islamists...even if they have never participated in any sort of militant activity.
For most of human history, Religion was rarely a personal matter...
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
For most of human history, Religion was rarely a personal matter...
For most of human history we didn't have indoor plumbing either. Fortunately man has evolved. If anything in this world is a personal matter, it is one's religion.
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
Personally, I dont care if someone coverts to another religion from Islam
Who am I to judge his/her actions?
They are totally free to worship and practice whatever they want to
God will judge them on the Day of Judgement.
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
For most of human history, Religion was rarely a personal matter...
I am not sure if i got ur point. Even if faith is intertwined with the state, how does leaving the faith constitute as treason? can u elaborate on that?
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
The point was, I don't think apostasy was ever taken as anything other than a political matter.
On several political levels it is a threat; you're now at the very least non-committed to the state ideology , which implies that you are no longer interested in it's propagation or participation within society, you may well have aligned with a new faith or social group...and so on.
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
^^ That is a lot of assumptions. So you are saying that non-muslims living in a mostly muslim country are not as patriotic as muslims.
Then can the west also say that muslims living in their country are not as patriotic as christians?
This is a ridicilous argument.
And since no Hadits back the claim that anyone who coverts from Islam should be killed then its a human invention and thus not islamic.
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
On several political levels it is a threat; you're now at the very least non-committed to the state ideology , which implies that you are no longer interested in it's propagation or participation within society, you may well have aligned with a new faith or social group...and so on.
in the context of this thread and most of the time its used these days, it is taken as a religious matter. but i see ur point and thats wot i have been trying to tell people that the examples of apostates being punished they cite are not valid in a religious context. They were punished becasue of the political threat they posed to the islamic state.
about the second point...
There would be other groups present in the state who might not be committed to the state ideology(read religion). Would they be considered traitors then? If one more person is added to their numbers how does it elevate the level of threat? This is the peron in question here. Apprehension of his/her motives is one thing but prescribing capital punishment is going really overborad.
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
I'm saying it was for the most part a perceived threat...very much like the threat islamists, or even traditional Muslims, pose to Europeans (at least, from their perspective...and something you've loudly complained about...and agreed with...yourself).
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Then can the west also say that muslims living in their country are not as patriotic as christians?
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Many, many do....
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And since no Hadits back the claim that anyone who coverts from Islam should be killed then its a human invention and thus not islamic.
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My argument was there was only ever was what we call in English treason, as far as Islamic history is concerned...I argue this is new territory for Muslims, since changing one's religion was never independent of their political allegiance.
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
This was once a part of Islamic governance but is no longer. Our religion has moved on. Some extremists continue to live in the stone ages.
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
[2:54] And remember Moses said to his people: “O my people! Ye have indeed wronged yourselves by your worship of the calf: So turn (in repentance) to your Maker, and slay yourselves (the wrong-doers); that will be better for you in the sight of your Maker.” Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness): For He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
Based on all I have read on this topic, I believe that an apostate (the person who was a muslim and understood the truth of Islam; and then converts to some other faith) is to be given the capital punishment. However, I do also believe that any such punishment can only be meted out by an Islamic government that rules in accordance with Sharia and after it weighs all the evidence. Its not a mass stoning ritual and it is not something that should be carried out lightly or mocked at.
At this time, I do not believe we have any government that satisfies the conditions of an Islamic government based on sharia. So this is more a theoretical discussion, then anything practical at this time, in my personal opinion.
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
Maybe there is a reason there isn't an Islamic government based on sharia any more. Capital punishment for apostates is the type of thing that was inherently wrong with it. Perhaps that was for another time and another place and has no place in an enlightened world.
I have to wonder if Islam is the perfect religion and after 1400 years there isn't a representative sharia state, perhaps that is by design.
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
^ it doesn't mean literally kill urselves. it means kill ur evil desires. if it was as u say how do u explain this?
[4:154] The People of the Book ask thee to bring down upon them a Book from Heaven. They asked Moses a greater thing than this. They said, 'Show us Allah openly.' Thereupon a destructive punishment overtook them because of their transgression. Then they took the calf (for worship) after clear Signs had come to them, but We pardoned (even) that. And We gave Moses manifest authority.
even their leader Samiri was not killed.
[20:98] (Moses) said, "Begone then! It shall be thine in this life to say (to everyone,) 'Touch me not,' and there is a promise (of punishment) for thee which shall not fail to be fulfilled about thee. Now, look at thy god of which thou hast become a devoted worshipper. We will certainly burn it and then We will scatter its (ashes) into the sea;
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
At this time, I do not believe we have any government that satisfies the conditions of an Islamic government based on sharia. So this is more a theoretical discussion, then anything practical at this time, in my personal opinion.
any interpretation that goes against the teachings of Qura'an is always full of flaws. How does one find out if the person in question has understood the truth of islam? What about children whos parents dont get along and are more worried about fighting each other than teaching their children about islam. Once these kids grow up, can they leave islam for another faith because they dont understand islam?
I agree with ur other point that any Islamic punishment should be carried out by a government that rules according to sharia.
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
I have to wonder if Islam is the perfect religion and after 1400 years there isn't a representative sharia state, perhaps that is by design.
I don't agree with your insinuation that Islam has flaws. By default I believe in its purest form, Islam was and still is the perfect religion and deen (life style). Naturally I assume you disagree, which is fine.
However, I do firmly believe that people get the leaders they deserve. Muslims in the current time have got whom they deserve. I'll leave it at that. :)
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
Since no government since the Caliphate of the 6th and 7th Centuries ruled with pure Islamic law, I dont think any government today is qualified to be a Sharia government.
the world is much more diverse, with christians, jews, muslims, and others intermingling and living in each other's countries and a sharia law is very hard to implement
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
However, I do firmly believe that people get the leaders they deserve. Muslims in the current time have got whom they deserve. I'll leave it at that. :)
My insinuation of flaws wasn't with Islam but with the way it is practiced and interpreted which you evidently agree with based on your 2nd paragraph. I believe Islam and many other religions can be 'the perfect religion'.
I think sharia law was meant for a certain people and a certain time, similar to the Old Testament being meant for a certain people and certain time. Trying to implement laws and stay literal to 1400 year old texts is not possible today. Hence my suggestion that there was a reason we don't have any Islamic state today.
Re: Muslims converting to other religions
"Hard" is not the same as "impossible", of course. But I agree with you that any proper Islamic government has to think through a number of complex issues that were not contemplated back in the days of early Islamic rulers. However, I think thats a whole different topic. It could be a very interesting theoretical discussion actually.