Muslim Scientists

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *

The point is Old Man that just because someone isn't awarded a Nobel Prize it doesn't and never will mean that they aren't proficient or excelling in their respective field. Even you should be able to understand that! Einstein didn't get a Nobel Prize for his work on General Relativity (he did for something else)... according to your warped and senile logic this amounts to this aspect of his work being undeserving of any recognition and not worth the time. Now go and do something useful like, err, learning to make sense of things! Duh!?
[/QUOTE]
If Muslims are discriminated against in the voting of Nobel prizes, then why not post your own list of those deserving recognition instead of trying to find fault in someone else's argument? The Nobel prize is arguably one method to determine scientific achievement. If you have another method, show us.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
If Muslims are discriminated against in the voting of Nobel prizes...
[/QUOTE]

Huh!? The Nobel Prize for judiciously following the thrust of this thread is awarded to Seminole - NOT! I'll make it really simple especially for you: Just because someone is not awarded a Nobel Prize it doesn't mean their work is worthless and of no value. Posted in response to Old Man's comment who after seeing the long list of prize winners largely devoid of Muslims remarked: "What might the reason be why so few Muslims excel nowadays?" Duh!?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mrpockets: *
Physics
Abdus Salam
[/quote]

Actually majority muslims wouldn't accept him as a Muslim since he belongs to a minority sect.... so it's one less scientist.

^ Curious... any more info on Abdus Salam's "sect"?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *

Huh!? The Nobel Prize for judiciously following the thrust of this thread is awarded to Seminole - NOT! I'll make it really simple especially for you: Just because someone is not awarded a Nobel Prize it doesn't mean their work is worthless and of no value. Posted in response to Old Man's comment who after seeing the long list of prize winners largely devoid of Muslims remarked: "What might the reason be why so few Muslims excel nowadays?" Duh!?
[/QUOTE]
I thought the thrust of this thread was "Muslim Scientists", you are the one who turned it into a referendum on Nobel prizes. So instead of avoiding the question "What might the reason be why so few Muslims excel nowadays?" by claiming discrimination, why don't you refute the question by providing your preferred method for judging scientific achievement over the past 100 years?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
^ Curious... any more info on Abdus Salam's "sect"?
[/QUOTE]

I think he was an Ahmadi Muslim

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
I thought the thrust of this thread was "Muslim Scientists", you are the one who turned it into a referendum on Nobel prizes.
[/quote]

See The Old Man.

[quote]
So instead of avoiding the question "What might the reason be why so few Muslims excel nowadays?" by claiming discrimination, why don't you refute the question by providing your preferred method for judging scientific achievement over the past 100 years?
[/QUOTE]

I'll be only too glad to do so just as soon as you can show me where i "claim[ed] discrimination"?

Old Man asked the reason why so few Muslims excel nowadays. You then went on that Nobel prizes were not necessarily indicative of scientific achievements, ignoring the question. What if we use patents as a measurement of success? If you have an issue with his position then provide counter proof instead of finding fault with only one measurement of scientific success. If you can't anwer his question at least stop diverting the thread.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Old Man asked the reason why so few Muslims excel nowadays. You then went on that Nobel prizes were not necessarily indicative of scientific achievements, ignoring the question.
[/QUOTE]

There was a specific context to Old Man's questions: "Can someone please supply a list of Muslim scientists that received the Nobel prices [sic]"; then when he was provided the list: "What might the reason be why so few Muslims excel nowadays?"

Now do you see why i said "Nobel prizes were not necessarily indicative of scientific achievements"????? People can "excel" without ever having received such awards. Duh!?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
People can "excel" without ever having received such awards.
[/QUOTE]
This is fine. Leaving aside the topic of "Nobel" prizes... help us understand, what is YOUR definition of "excel"? And how can it be quantified and bench-marked so we can all share in the "excellence" of muslim scientists of present times?

Lets continue the discussion on what YOU think makes more sense. Forget the Old Man. What does he know.

^ It is for their peers to vouch for the excellence and importance of their contributions, whether or not this leads to a Nobel Prize is irrelevant. Einstein never received a Nobel Prize for his work on General Relatively but other scientists have hailed the groundbreaking significance of this work.

^ As I said, forget about Nobel prizes for now. So, when you say "It is for their peers to vouch for the excellence and importance of their contributions" what exactly do you have in mind? Give us some examples of peers lauding the work of present day muslim scientists so all the readers here can get an idea of whats in your mind and you can clarify your argument.

Perhaps the following exceprts from the Economist (based on a 2002 UN report) explains better than gupguppy could why the Nobel prize list is devoid of the Arabs who once dominated scientific discovery.

[http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1213392](Arab development - Self-doomed to failure)

…]“If God were to humiliate a human being,” wrote Imam Ali bin abi Taleb in the sixth century, “He would deny him knowledge.” Although the Arabs spend a higher percentage of GDP on education than any other developing region, it is not, it seems, well spent. The quality of education has deteriorated pitifully, and there is a severe mismatch between the labour market and the education system. Adult illiteracy rates have declined but are still very high: 65m adults are illiterate, almost two-thirds of them women. Some 10m children still have no schooling at all.

From their schooldays onwards, Arabs are instructed that they should not defy tradition, that they should respect authority, that truth should be sought in the text and not in experience. Fear of fawda (chaos) and fitna (schism) are deeply engrained in much Arab-Islamic teaching. “The role of thought”, wrote a Syrian intellectual “is to explain and transmit…and not to search and question.”

Such tenets never held back the great Arab astronomers and mathematicians of the Middle Ages. But now, it seems, they hold sway, discouraging critical thought and innovation and helping to produce a great army of young Arabs, jobless, unskilled and embittered, cut off from changing their own societies by democratic means. Islam at least offers them a little self-respect. With so many paths closed to them, some are now turning their dangerous anger on the western world…

…] One of the gravest results of their poor education is that the Arabs, who once led the world in science, are dropping ever further behind in scientific research and in information technology. Investment in research and development is less than one-seventh of the world average. Only 0.6% of the population uses the Internet, and 1.2% have personal computers.

Another, no less grave, result is the dearth of creativity. The report comments sadly on the severe shortage of new writing, and, for instance, the decline in the film industry. Nor are foreign books much translated: in the 1,000 years since the reign of the Caliph Mamoun, say the authors, the Arabs have translated as many books as Spain translates in one year.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
....Why are few Muslims excelling nowadays? ....
[/QUOTE]

I am not sure about other Muslims. But Pakistanis for sure can do much better in science.

How?

Science comes about with freethinking. You have to be willing to question every dam**d thing that you see. Curiosity might have killed the cat, but it definitely helps human beings.

Go out on clear night, look up at the sky and ponder. Say Wow, and take a deep breath. Then appreciate what Allah has given to us so that we can explore His universe.

Quit listening to MAToos and forget about "flat earth" theory. Read the latest journals in Physics, Astronomy, Chemistry, and Biology. See who are the *giants in these fields as of TODAY. *

*Follow and submit to those giants * regardless of their religious affiliation. Ape them, copy them, learn from them, revere them, and make them your idols.

Then my man! you will excel in science and be able to break the MAToo shackles.

Good luck with discovering God's great universe.

Disclaimer: Following and submitting to a teacher does not in any way harms my faith in Allah. Allah is beyond these little limits that MAToos might advocate.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
^ As I said, forget about Nobel prizes for now. So, when you say "It is for their peers to vouch for the excellence and importance of their contributions" what exactly do you have in mind?

[/QUOTE]

Say what? Didn't you understand your own question? You asked for my suggested benchmark and i gave you one!

And I asked you to give examples of what you mean.

^ asked and answered

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
^ asked and answered
[/QUOTE]

What's the problem Bud! Seems like you hate scientists and the science. MAToos are zero in logic as well.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
^ asked and answered
[/QUOTE]

It is pretty clear that you were needlessly defensive and horsing around. If you don't know something, its fine to either stay quiet and move on or admit it and provide solutions.

You did an elaborate song and dance that Nobel prizes are not representative of "excellence" in science. Ok, fine. So what is. You say "peers vouch for the excellence and importance of contributions". Now, since the thread is about "Muslim Scientists" so you are asked to provide examples of where peers have vouched for excellence and importance of contributions by muslim scientists. And now you are just yip yapping. You had a great opportunity to make your point, and you failed. Very much expected as this is usually what you do anyway. Just come here to act all pissed off and criticize people left, right and center, and have little, if any positive contribution in this forum. Serves you right to be shown for what you are, an empty tin with no substance who likes to mouth off first before having a coherent argument to back up. Have a good day! :)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *

If you don't know something, its fine to either stay quiet and move on or admit it and provide solutions.
[/quote]

Yes, the sooner you learn to do that the better. Just because you've been made to look an imbecile in most other threads doesn't mean you should go around seeking revenge and try and get one-up on any and everyone. Duh!?

[quote]
You did an elaborate song and dance that Nobel prizes are not representative of "excellence" in science.
[/quote]

You obviously still haven't learnt to read.

[quote]
Ok, fine. So what is. You say "peers vouch for the excellence and importance of contributions".
[/quote]

Asked and answered.

[quote]
Now, since the thread is about "Muslim Scientists" so you are asked to provide examples of where peers have vouched for excellence and importance of contributions by muslim scientists. And now you are just yip yapping. You had a great opportunity to make your point, and you failed. Very much expected as this is usually what you do anyway. Just come here to act all pissed off and criticize people left, right and center, and have little, if any positive contribution in this forum. Serves you right to be shown for what you are, an empty tin with no substance who likes to mouth off first before having a coherent argument to back up. Have a good day! :)
[/QUOTE]

Wow! What a childish ego you have Mr. Faisal. Do you do this to everyone who makes you look stupid in other threads?? No moderator's Nobel Prize for you this year. Now grow up!!