Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

[phoenixdesi]

Dont you guys think that it is about time that self-righteous, ignorant and arrogant Muslim scholars in Pakistan, who have been preaching a totalitarian and an imperialistic religious ideology (we are on the right path’ while everyone else is not)for sometime now, should learn humility, humbleness, and love-for-all from Pope. Muslim scholars in Pakistan and abroad should also reciprocate in the same fashion as Islam should be about inclusiveness and love-for-all just like Sufism preached not too long ago…

Pope Francis washes and kisses feet of Muslim, Hindu and Christian refugees | Europe | News | The Independent

Pope washes feet of Muslim migrants, says ‘we are brothers’ - World - DAWN.COM

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

we pakistanis are liberal muslims by DNA

we dont want "exclusive" islam ....we want "inclusive" islam

we dont want "punish" islam... we want "forgive and let go" islam

we dont want "fear" islam ... we want "love" islam

we dont want "disciplinary" islam... we want "free and cultural" islam

we dont want "everything fun is haram" islam... we want "fun is allowed" islam

we dont want "boring & dull" islam.. we want "colorful and cheerful" islam

we dont want "sect base hateful" islam.... we want "no-sect & love-for-all" islam

[KKF]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

allamah Iqbal kii yeh nazam paRh leN Phoenix Bhai:

https://rekhta.org/Images/UrduShayari/ur_zohd-aur-rindii-allama-iqbal-nazms.png

https://rekhta.org/Images/UrduShayari/en_zohd-aur-rindii-allama-iqbal-nazms.png

[muqawwee123]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

Allama Iqbal per koi ilhami kitab nazil nahin hui thi? Every one (even holy scriptures / or their peculiar interpretation) if promotes intolerance should be condemned. If a religion or ideology can't be inclusive on humanitarian grounds, then it is garbage and should be shunned.

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

If a religion or ideology can't be inclusive on humanitarian grounds, then it is garbage and should be shunned.

is this just a sentence that you are repeating or do you really mean it? because if you really mean it then islam as it is being practiced in paksitan should be shunned as it is not inclusive by any means

it discriminates minorities....constitutionally they cannot be elected for president or pm. do you agree with this law? YES or NO

it has a right and it exercises that right to declare religion for some of its citizens against their wishes....it declares ahmadis non-muslims while they call them muslims . do you agree with this law or no. YES or NO

it has a blasphemy law in a country where we have 98% muslims , so not sure who will commit blasphemy as minorities are already scared of the 98% of majority and cannot even think of committing blasphemy.. this law is primarily being used to target minorities all the times for commercial or political gains. Do you agree with this law. YES or NO

minorities are not allowed to preach their religions to Muslims. jews, hindus, ahmadis they cannot preach to Muslims in Pakistan consititntitonally but muslims can preach to them...do you agree with it.. YEs or NO

basad ihtram jawab ka muntzar rahoon ga. shukria

[hanibal]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

is this just a sentence that you are repeating or do you really mean it? because if you really mean it then islam as it is being practiced in paksitan should be shunned as it is not inclusive by any means

it discriminates minorities....constitutionally they cannot be elected for president or pm. do you agree with this law? YES or NO

it has a right and it exercises that right to declare religion for some of its citizens against their wishes....it declares ahmadis non-muslims while they call them muslims . do you agree with this law or no. YES or NO

it has a blasphemy law in a country where we have 98% muslims , so not sure who will commit blasphemy as minorities are already scared of the 98% of majority and cannot even think of committing blasphemy.. this law is primarily being used to target minorities all the times for commercial or political gains. Do you agree with this law. YES or NO

minorities are not allowed to preach their religions to Muslims. jews, hindus, ahmadis they cannot preach to Muslims in Pakistan consititntitonally but muslims can preach to them...do you agree with it.. YEs or NO

basad ihtram jawab ka muntzar rahoon ga. shukria

If you allow me!

1) Historically, Jews/Christians used to be Prime Ministers of Ottoman Caliphate and to many other Muslim Sultanates, in Sub-Continent Almost all Muslim dynasties used to have hindu/non-muslims at key positions. So yes a non-muslim can be President of Pakistan and can be PM if there is Presidential System in place.

2) Yes, otherwise, there will lots and lots of unrest if such thing is not control, in my opinion, it should not be limited to Ahmadies, but to everyone who declares something he is not, for example a Muslim declaring himself an Ahmadi to get visa benefit and Sunni declaring himself a Shia to get trade sympathies or benefits from Iran and list goes on.

3) No, I am totally against it, blasphemy law have to place as per Islamic Law (shariah) it is been added later on by the Sultans and their darbari ulema. it is a black law where accuser have nothing to loose and accused normally loose everything, even if accuser is proved wrong. In a Just religion like Islam, this kind of law cannot stand.

4) This is tricky and my knowledge is limited, however my heart says that they shan't and my mind says being a citizen of Pakistan they have right to practice their religion in its full spirit, and by that i mean if their religion tells them to preach then so be it.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

is this just a sentence that you are repeating or do you really mean it? because if you really mean it then islam as it is being practiced in paksitan should be shunned as it is not inclusive by any means

it discriminates minorities....constitutionally they cannot be elected for president or pm. do you agree with this law? YES or NO

No. There shouldn't be any discrimination based on religion. As hanibal mentioned, it has been historical tradition from Ottoman to Mughal rulers and bring different communities together with a sense of belonging.

[QUOTE]

it has a right and it exercises that right to declare religion for some of its citizens against their wishes....it declares ahmadis non-muslims while they call them muslims . do you agree with this law or no. YES or NO

[/QUOTE]

No. This did harm to overall fabric of society and I believe that intention of those who brought this law was political. I would agree to the practice of spreading concept of khatm e Nabuwwat, but making lives of those who don't agree to this miserable is not acceptable for me.

[QUOTE]
it has a blasphemy law in a country where we have 98% muslims , so not sure who will commit blasphemy as minorities are already scared of the 98% of majority and cannot even think of committing blasphemy.. this law is primarily being used to target minorities all the times for commercial or political gains. Do you agree with this law. YES or NO
[/QUOTE]

Totally NO, considering the incidents where innocent people faced the consequences.

[QUOTE]

minorities are not allowed to preach their religions to Muslims. jews, hindus, ahmadis they cannot preach to Muslims in Pakistan consititntitonally but muslims can preach to them...do you agree with it.. YEs or NO

[/QUOTE]

Personally, I would be for right of their preach. I would consider Prophet's life in Makkah, where he was able to preach (though he has to face opposition). When Muslims can preach in Europe, America and other parts of the world, non-Muslims should also have opportunity to preach in Muslim world. I think this competition and open approach towards all religions, will bring Muslims more nearer to true message of Islam and they will follow their religion based on actual philosophy rather than prevalent ritualistic dominant Islam they are following today.

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

No. There shouldn't be any discrimination based on religion. As hanibal mentioned, it has been historical tradition from Ottoman to Mughal rulers and bring different communities together with a sense of belonging.

No. This did harm to overall fabric of society and I believe that intention of those who brought this law was political. I would agree to the practice of spreading concept of khatm e Nabuwwat, but making lives of those who don't agree to this miserable is not acceptable for me.

Totally NO, considering the incidents where innocent people faced the consequences.

Personally, I would be for right of their preach. I would consider Prophet's life in Makkah, where he was able to preach (though he has to face opposition). When Muslims can preach in Europe, America and other parts of the world, non-Muslims should also have opportunity to preach in Muslim world. I think this competition and open approach towards all religions, will bring Muslims more nearer to true message of Islam and they will follow their religion based on actual philosophy rather than prevalent ritualistic dominant Islam they are following today.

ok thx.
ahmadis is the most difficult one. i thjink instead of isolating them so harshly, we should have kept an open communication channel with them and try to preach them and let them preach.

[ajazali]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

PD sahib why feeling suffocated?
There are plenty places in lahore a stronghold of "ameer ul momineen" where you can pee while standing on the road.
There are so many places you can visit to keep your akhian thandi. What else you want?

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

PD sahib why feeling suffocated? There are plenty places in lahore a stronghold of "ameer ul momineen" where you can pee while standing on the road. There are so many places you can visit to keep your akhian thandi. What else you want?

are you being sarcastic and making fun of me? thx janab

[ajazali]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

No, I wonder why expat sitting in west feel so suffocated where as we can see people far more modern in urban areas of Pakistan?
Considering the ratio of number of muslims and ahmdis, ahmdis have converted far more muslims to Ahmdis than muslims could convert ahmadis to Islam. In my hometown, I witnessed a blasphemy case against a christian who was spared by people after the christian guy acknowledged his mistake. People are not animalistic as you guys assume them sitting in west.
In a community like pakistan all you need is respect each other's sentiments.

[Anjul]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

@muqawwee123 I must say you hold nobel thoughts. On untouchablity, Gandhi ji said that the Shatras did not sanction untouchablity and even if they did, they should be ignored since truth cannot be confined within the covers of a book.

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

No, I wonder why expat sitting in west feel so suffocated where as we can see people far more modern in urban areas of Pakistan? Considering the ratio of number of muslims and ahmdis, ahmdis have converted far more muslims to Ahmdis than muslims could convert ahmadis to Islam. In my hometown, I witnessed a blasphemy case against a christian who was spared by people after the christian guy acknowledged his mistake. People are not animalistic as you guys assume them sitting in west. In a community like pakistan all you need is respect each other's sentiments.

well, first how do you know I am an expat sitting in the west? just because my id is phoenix?

second, if islam is on the right side and a true religion like we believe then why are we afraid to compete against other religions? let them preach in your country openly just like they let you preach in their countries. if our message is true then inshallh we will win. right? but no we want to preach 100% in the west but dont want to reciprocate at all in saudi arabis and pakistan. why?

and if more muslims are converting to ahamdis, so be it...face it. dont run away and start banning them. that only shows that they have a stronger message than ours. i know that the next argument will be that ahmadis use money but if our iman can be sold for few rs then what can i say. but banning and isolation is not the answer. inclusiveness is the answer, preach them with love and show them the real islam but we have made them the shoodar of our society.

as others have pointed out, blasphemy law is not from sahria. Our nabi was called rehmat ul alameen and forgave everyone. hard to believe he will allow killing anyone on his name.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

@phoenixdesi

ok thx. ahmadis is the most difficult one. i thjink instead of isolating them so harshly, we should have kept an** open communication channel **with them and try to preach them and let them preach.

Open communication is possible when you are not suffering from some 'fragile' ideology. Though, I have found lot of literature calling ahmedis to know the truth, but when it comes to mainstream and discussion at masses level, I don't think we as society are in position to debate without hurting (read as killing) others.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

second, if islam is on the right side and a true religion like we believe then why are we afraid to compete against other religions? let them preach in your country openly just like they let you preach in their countries. if our message is true then inshallh we will win. right? but no we want to preach 100% in the west but dont want to reciprocate at all in saudi arabis and pakistan. why?

Exactly same discussion I had with one of my colleague few weeks back, when he told me that in Orangi, Karachi area, Ahmedis are preaching their beliefs. When I asked, how come you know that they were preaching, he said that they were doing some public welfare activity in the area. I said whats wrong with public welfare activity, that should be encouraged. He said but they are doing for preaching purposes. I said why do not Sunnis go to this area and preach through public welfare activities. Some Tablighis got lot of money (like Junaid Jamshed selling commodities at 400% profit) and if they see that their religion in danger by public welfare activities of Ahmedis, they should go to those areas.

I didn't ask my colleague, but isn't Saudi government funding their ideology in Pakistan (though they are more on madarsa establishment to prepare mujhaidin - the prospective suitors of 72 hoors).

BTW, Ismailis got biggest network in northern areas and they also have converted people through public welfare activities and community services, I never find same kind of opposition for such conversion, as I found for Ahmedis. Now, if you go to masses, they definitely have suspicion about Ismaili / Agha Khani belief system. I don't wish that any community meet the same fate as Ahmedis and definitely not for progressive Ismaili community (I have very good interaction with Ismailis colleagues), I was just wondering why Ahmedis are in more trouble. May be its the discriminatory constitution that had made lives of community miserable and destroyed overall social fabric of society.

[ajazali]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

I dont say i am running away from that fact. Telling you ground reality instead.

[Med911]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

There is something very cringe worthy about the whole washing feet thing. I mean i know it shows humility and all but...

Pakistani Mullahs are who they are... They aren't great spiritual leaders nor are they all that wise or humble, save for a few.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

There is something very cringe worthy about the whole washing feet thing. I mean i know it shows humility and all but...

Pakistani Mullahs are who they are... They aren't great spiritual leaders nor are they all that wise or humble, save for a few.

May be its symbolic (I don't know the history behind washing feet thing in Christianity, but even in our Sindhi culture, I have heard a phrase 'uski bahu uske paon dho kar peeti hai' referring to reverence, respect and good relationship among the traditional rivals saas and bahu).

Another aspect about religious lot in subcontinent to ponder over is we all love to criticize caste system in Hinduism and their idea of untouchable and stretch this even as basis for two nations theory leading to partition. But when it comes to accepting different sects (leave alone different religions), over the time, we have developed so much ego that even sometimes people don't lose a chance to abhor eating with other sects / taking food from other sects. I have heard on this forum and even in real life that Shia spit in food while they offer something to sunnis. This is level of tolerance our religious scholars promoted over the period in a country, which according to them, was made as Hindus considered Muslims untouchable (Muslim Pani Hindu pani rant in our books is the reference).

[Anwer_Pasha]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

And the mulla is praising a killer
اسکاٹ لینڈ کے امام کی ممتاز قادری کی تعریف](اسکاٹ لینڈ کے امام کی ممتاز قادری کی تعریف - Pakistan - Dawn News Urdu)مولانا حبیب الرحمٰن نے ممتاز قادری کے نام کے ساتھ ‘رحمۃ اللہ علیہ’ (یعنی ان پر اللہ کی رحمت ہو) بھی تحریر کیا

[Med911]

Re: Muslim Scholars in Pakistan..learn from Pope please

May be its symbolic (I don't know the history behind washing feet thing in Christianity, but even in our Sindhi culture, I have heard a phrase 'uski bahu uske paon dho kar peeti hai' referring to reverence, respect and good relationship among the traditional rivals saas and bahu).

Another aspect about religious lot in subcontinent to ponder over is we all love to criticize caste system in Hinduism and their idea of untouchable and stretch this even as basis for two nations theory leading to partition. But when it comes to accepting different sects (leave alone different religions), over the time, we have developed so much ego that even sometimes people don't lose a chance to abhor eating with other sects / taking food from other sects. I have heard on this forum and even in real life that Shia spit in food while they offer something to sunnis. This is level of tolerance our religious scholars promoted over the period in a country, which according to them, was made as Hindus considered Muslims untouchable (Muslim Pani Hindu pani rant in our books is the reference).

Washing of the feet tradition comes from the Biblical account of the last supper of Christ, where he washed the feet of his dsciples.

Your absolutely right. Many Pakistanis need a dose of tolerance and humility.

My father tells a story from his college years. Him and his friends went on a picnic. They had one friend who was Christian. The entire time they had the Christian guy play a guitar while they sang or did whatever college guys do... When it was time to eat there werent enough plates to go around, so everyone would have to share plate. Of course, no one would share with the Christian guy...

But religious bigotry and intolerance is older then Pakistan and crosses religious lines.. We have stories from our village of Hindus who would walk on the edges of the lanes so as to avoid having their shadows cross a Muslims'.
Religious intolerance is endemic in our part of the world.