Fraudi
did i rock your cradle never mind get comfortable in that chair.
you issued many question to ht people and they went away hmmm really that is surprising. Is it anything to do with you have’nt got nothing but slanders where is your solution ummah is dire problems what have you to offer as a solution do you have non-islamic lets lobby mr kafir solution or do you have an islamic solution since we are muslims here.
ak47
As i said before, lets get the answers to the questions I asked. It would be great to have a good discussion on what everyone can do in their own capacity or in their own way. But I am still interested in finding out the answers to my questions.
Regards
Aafreen
you are better off spending your time ivolving yourself in the correct solution instead of participating in non islamic obstacles like lobbying the enemies of islam and also it is pointless attacking muslims as irrational and disruptive. I heard from this rally they put announcement on sound system will the people with orange banners(HT) take them down as people cannot hear the speakers" like that makes sense people cannot hear because of orange banners wow thats a first. If you are trying to tell me lot of these anti capitalists and socialists i saw participating in this rally are rational with cans of lager in there hands then i'll end this conversation now. Also an ammusing incident some of the organisers of the rally asked some of the muslims to take down the shahadah flag as they thought it would have negative reaction in front of media, but when they saw reaction of the muslims, Imagine you asking muslims to take down shahadah flag the same organisers saw there mistake and changed there tune.
"Also HT used to blast Muslims who were politcally active as kafir, now when their own members have been tortured in Egypt." Aafreen members of HT are arressted and tortured all over the world this is nothing new. HT never ask muslims to lobby kafir mps especially from the likes of Britain. You should provide me with evidence of this otheriwse i will see this as another slander.
Aafreen
had a quick look at website you mentioned in your post. After looking at the Ht article i find it highly amusing with quotes like "The Hizbis are protecting the Zionists and other enemies of Islam from the Muslims’ attempts and encroachment to weaken the enemies by running a campaign for the status quo
I will respond to this ridiculous article when i have more time inshallah.
Aafreen,
Good luck and kudos to you and what sounds like a very worthwhile cause and organization. The only way to make change in a democracy is to work within the system. The systems are set up for peaceful change.
If MAB is made up of British Muslims, then they are using the proper channels. I don't understand those who are against this type of activism. They don't even belong in the West if those are their views. What are their doing in the land of the kafir anyway? If they ever do get their one-ummah goal, it will not include England or any other Western country.
Jazakallah khair Seminole, we are doing the best we can, mashallah lots of people are joining and supporting us.
As for the HT brother i can decide how i best spend my time, i dont need you to tell me, esp when my parents, my husband, and the thousands who are part of MPAC, various scholars and their fatwas support and help me. Neither do i need a rebuttal of the articles i posted, i am convinced of the good scholars argument. His email is there, why dont you tell him how you feel about his 'ridiculous' articles? i'm sure he will appreciate your respectful comments.
I stand by what i stated about HT members asking people to write to thier MP's to help the Ht brothers in Egypt. I have seen Ht members handing out leaflets outside our mosque, a message and sample letters also went out on the 'Islamic events: London' maling list. I give an acount of what i have seen and heard and you accuse me of slander...?!!?
I am pasting forwarded email i also recieved from a HT sister (sample letters to MP's, newpapers and Egyptian ambassador were attached to it)...if you think i am still slanderous then fine, i have no wish to engage in a debate with you, my time is better spent, you are my brother in Islam and i love you for it, but i cannot support your disrespectful and arrogant views.
'Brother /Sister
Please can you assist us in helping the brothers detained in Egypt by writing letters to the addresses below concerning this case. We can account the corrupt Egyptian regime for the injustices it inflicts on anyone who carries Islam ideologically. If there are any other organisations that you feel could help by you writing to them then please do so.
The letters should be written in your own words and the points are mere guidelines of what we would like you to raise.
Can you please submit a copy of what you write to the person that has asked you to do this so that a record can be kept or at least inform them that you have done so.
Can these letters please be written ASAP - this week - it would be good so that they have good impact on the upcoming trial which has now been set and is very soon.
Jazak Allah Khair for all your help, we would just like to remind you that this action is one that is permitted in Islam just like the Muslims when they travelled to Abyssinia and had protection of the Negus. This should not be confused as work for the re establishment of the Khilafah, this is only an individual action that you are undertaking as a Muslim to help your Brothers and sisters. We should also remember that at the end of the day some of the bodies we are writing to are non-muslims so we should be realistic about the result that may come from this. Remember that the result will be from Allah, the success will be from Allah (SWT).
May Allah reward you for your help and please continue in your dua for them and for all the other sincere Muslims that are locked up in Prisons around the world.
Jazak Allah Khair
" If Allah helps you, None can overcome you:
If He forsakes you, Who is there, after that, that can help you?
In Allah, then, let the Believers put their trust."
(TMQ Surah Imran:160)
aafreen
Ummm unless im blind i don't see the words please please enemy of islam mr kafir mp can you do something for muslims being tortured in egypt!
I think you owe an apology what was the words you used arrogant hmmm we will see if you practice what you preach!
once more ak47 your message was quite incoherent i didnt really understand it...?? and my MP isnt a Kafir he is a devout christian and very sympathetic to Muslim issues..you guys just love calling other people kafir dont you? Does it make you feel really good about yourself? My grandfather (god rest his soul) was a hafiz and very respected moulvi. He told me that you shouldnt even call i kafir a kafir because you dont know when they may become Muslim, he had simililar views to me but then i suppose you would think he on the kafir bandwagon too........
I just used this message board to inform people about MPAC noto to converse with people such as yourself i got enough of that in college and uni.
I will keep others updated on work of MPAC...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Aafreen: *
once more ak47 your message was quite incoherent i didnt really understand it...?? and my MP isnt a Kafir he is a devout christian and very sympathetic to Muslim issues. My grandfather (god rest his soul) was a hafiz and very respected moulvi. He told me that you shouldnt even call i kafir a kafir because you dont know when they may become Muslim
[/QUOTE]
Aafreen well if you look at the rules on guppshup you can't promote other websites or organisations this was made clear to myself also by moderators!
Your MP is a very nice tea drinking good with muslims christian. With all due respect to your grandfather, a kafir is a kafir and it is very simple because if you take that logic then nobody is kafir which is ridiculous notion.
Is adolf hitler kafir what about slobodan milosovic how about george bush go to afghanistan or pakistan and ask them do you think george bush is kafir or not.
allah tells us in quran who is muslim and who is not it is very clear even these interfaith/abrahamic faiths are nonsense and refuted clearly
*“Ibrahim was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one who truly submitted (Musliman) (to Allah’s will).” [TMQ Ale-Imran: 67] *
And Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala) said (to the nearest meaning):
*“And whosoever seeks a Deen other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him.” [TMQ Ale-Imran: 85] *
*“Never will the Jews or the Christians be pleased with you till you follow their religion.” [TMQ Al-Baqarah: 120] *
From this, Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala) has laid down the clear foundation of the relationship between Islam and other religions and doctrines. This foundation is that Islam and Kufr will never mix under any circumstances whatsoever.
Aafreen Mpac maybe a wothwhile call, actually what does it call for ? what are it's solution to the problems faced by the MUSLIMS, write to a non-muslim for support, to me that just doesn't make sense. if you want a solution for muslims dhould that solution come from Islam, and well as we have all read the solution from the Islamic source is one and that is return to the Islamic way of life by rejecting kufr be in a muslim country or a kafir country like Britain. The way we bring Islam back into our lives is by spiritual and political means, so we live by Islam this doesn't mean we go pray 5 times a day and that is Islam is done and dusted, i.e become secular, but we are able to go to a financial institution and bank via an Islamic method without such things as riba also our lives won't be governed by man made laws, for example who says on the M62 you are not allowed to go over 70mph, Islam, the Khalif or Tony Blair, that is why now many of the groups say the Khilafah is the way to allow us to live Islam as a spiritual and political basis. Now that we have established that the Khilafah is only viable solution based upon reality to allow us to live our lives completely via Islam, we need to look what does Islam say about the issue of Khilafah, do we need to work for it, is it fard, is it mandub (recommended) etc... well as many of the groups will tell you Khilafah is fard and the evidences for that are this many hadith relating to the fact that we have to pledge our alledgiance to a Khalif, but again in todays reality, we have no khalif so to lift that obligation of no khalif we have to work towards a system that would place a khalif in place, because the bayah is fard. Now we have to look at the method for establishing the only Islamic solution, and well as you already know there are many groups out there saying they have the solution, but like do they? MAB muslim association of britain, established by the British, they would even support an attack on iraq if the UN gave the go ahead, to me the way to establish the Khilafah is like the prophet peace be upon him did it 1400 years ago, via dawah on an intellectual and political front, he proved to the arabs Islam was the truth and that their idols were only stone, the shahabah were cultured with islam, then once they had belief and knew Islam was the truth they carried these very simple Islamic concepts to the people, and also they gained support from the influential tribes example Ansar, and then the Khilafah came, it took the prophet peace be upon him 13 years, so as you can see it is no easy task but one that must be continued until Allah swt sends us the Khilafah but that doesn't mean we sit and wait for it to happen because we have been commanded to make it a reality,
by Mr fraudia
1) grand plan as envisioned by tthe founder of HT 50 some odd years ago
2) 5 year plans, and how they support the long term goals, annual plans, intermediate milestones. How well were they met
3) organization structure. including justification for the secret halqas.
4) any material put forth by HT showing their goals, plans and accomplishments on an annual basis. and these have to be specific,measureable, repeatable sort of achievments. None of that "we wrote 15 open letters" and handed out umpteem thousand leaflets
If i could just answer these question quickly, from my experience of the Hizb ut tahrir, sheik taqidanni an nabhani, only had one plan when he set about laying the foundation for the Hizb and that was the establishment of the Khilafah so as we are all fully aware the hizb ut tahrir is working for the Khilafah in many countries not just the muslims lands but also Austrailia and even Mexico i have heard,
5 year plans what is exactly meant? well no one can see the future but the only plans the hizb have are to continue the dawa and try to establish the Islami way of life be it in 10 years 5 years, the victory is going to come from Allah swt but we have to make that victory a reality,
As for the organisation of the Hizb we all know what they want and their method the workers of the truth have made that clear, as for number admin, is that really important, when ever speaking to a muslim i think the Khilafah being the solutiona nd the problems faced by the Ummah are more important than admin and organisation, as for secret halaqas,well the islamic reasoning is the shahbah when they were being cultured in Islam use to meet in secret to avoid persecution sometime stay awake all night learning Islam, because we all know about the atrocities they faced by the quraysh, and we can again see fron news reports, that brother in Eygpt just for calling to Islam have been arrested, and recently 5000 dawah carriers in Syria and Uzbekistan the persecution of the dawah carriers is well known,
Again annual targets why are they needed ? when we haven't the khilafah, muslims are dying innocent muslim blood is being spilled, and to some people figures are more important, i don't even think the hizb bothers with such things, they aren't important, as for the distribution of leaflets they aren't an achievement they are just part of the dawah, tell me who amongst the muslim groups has informed the muslims of such issues as INTEGRATION INTO WESTERN SOCIETY, ALL ASPECTS OF THE KHILAFAH, INDEPTH ANALYSIS ON ISSUES SUCH AS IRAQ AND THE ILLS OF CAPITALISTS SOCIETY be they democracy and human rights, to me personally the only group who is combating all these issues and more is the Hizb ut tahrir, and respect goes out to the brothers who are outside the mosques come wind rain or shine speaking the truth
*Originally posted by F R E S H: *
If i could just answer these question quickly, from my experience of the Hizb ut tahrir, sheik taqidanni an nabhani, only had one plan when he set about laying the foundation for the Hizb and that was the establishment of the Khilafah so as we are all fully aware the hizb ut tahrir is working for the Khilafah in many countries not just the muslims lands but also Austrailia and even Mexico i have heard, **
I am very familiar with HT and its workings.
*5 year plans what is exactly meant? well no one can see the future but the only plans the hizb have are to continue the dawa and try to establish the Islami way of life be it in 10 years 5 years, the victory is going to come from Allah swt but we have to make that victory a reality,
*
5 year plan i.e. for your long term plan which is the establishment of khilafah how do you guys go about setting intermediate and short term goals to see whether you are headed in the right direction, if ther eare adjustments needed etc etc. How do you know you are doing as well as you could. There is nothing to compare the results with..
*As for the organisation of the Hizb we all know what they want and their method the workers of the truth have made that clear, as for number admin, is that really important, when ever speaking to a muslim *
Okay so you will be able to provide a worlwide organization chart, who is the head honcho, who is a country head, who is a city head, etc etc.
** i think the Khilafah being the solutiona nd the problems faced by the Ummah are more important than admin and organisation, **
well, you have to have a well organized group to meet objectives otherwise if there are thousands of ppl runnign around in circles like chicken with their head cut off, what is accomplished aside from a lot of noise?
*as for secret halaqas,well the islamic reasoning is the shahbah when they were being cultured in Islam use to meet in secret to avoid persecution sometime stay awake all night learning Islam, because we all know about the atrocities they faced by the quraysh, and we can again see fron news reports, that brother in Eygpt just for calling to Islam have been arrested, and recently 5000 dawah carriers in Syria and Uzbekistan the persecution of the dawah carriers is well known, *
okay so finally someone admits that secret halqas do exist, kinda like freemasons who also have secret meetings. Now whya re halqaas secret in countries where HT is not being persecuted?
*Again annual targets why are they needed ? when we haven't the khilafah, muslims are dying innocent muslim blood is being spilled, and to some people figures are more important, *
well, how does anyone know that aside from distributing leaflets and brainwashing youth, HT is really doing anything for the benefit of the muslims? what current, exisiting problems are being solved?
*i don't even think the hizb bothers with such things, they aren't important, *
measureable results which have a real impact on soemone today are not important? I figured.
*as for the distribution of leaflets they aren't an achievement they are just part of the dawah, *
I was not saying mere distyribution of flyers is any achievement, its an activity.. sure. we dont know the value of it or any impact made by it.
*tell me who amongst the muslim groups has informed the muslims of such issues as INTEGRATION INTO WESTERN SOCIETY, ALL ASPECTS OF THE KHILAFAH, INDEPTH ANALYSIS ON ISSUES SUCH AS IRAQ *
Tons of groups. Which muslim group has not addressed these issues would be a better question.
*AND THE ILLS OF CAPITALISTS SOCIETY be they democracy and human rights, to me personally the only group who is combating all these issues and more is the Hizb ut tahrir, *
well mohajiroun may disagree as well as akhwan and others. and what is combatting? writing open letters which get no attention, passing flyers which wind up in trash two blocks from the masjid.
*and respect goes out to the brothers who are outside the mosques come wind rain or shine speaking the truth *
Indeed they are doing a good job by passing their message across. Now only if they will advance one step further and start solving current issues and base level problems like illiteracy and poverty in their countries.
Talking the talk is one thing, walking the walk is another.
What you ended up giving here was not the answer of my questions except somewhat of an answer on the issue of secret halqas. What you have admitted is that HT has no planning process, no annual goals, no other initiatives going on to help muslims in their neighbourhoods and cities who may need help, and no real interest in solving real problems in the countries where illiteracy, poverty etc are a ground reality.
Fraudz without seeming rude you seem very slow to me, first of all i have explained all the points to you but for ure sake i will try to answer them again, the long term is not the Khilafah the plan is to achieve the Khilafah be it in 5 years or tomorrow like i have said the Khilafah will come from Allah swt but we have to work for it, Mr fraudia i have also said the message of Islam return to the islamic way of life is more important than names and numbers, that is why the brothers always stress the point why the Khilafah is needed, why are you so interested in the admin side it is not important the importance is the Ummah realises that the Khilafah will sove the issue of pverty and illiteracy, i don't think you understand what the Khilafah is, it is easy to say it is the Islamic state but what in real terms does that mean ? Have you read islamic histroy when the khilafah was predominant and the muslims were world leaders and the Islamic civilisation shone and was the envy of the kuffar, as for the brothers runnign round in circles, everyone who has ever come to know the work of the hizb know it is very well organised, lol i see you like to play with words fraudia if you think a few flash pie charts and bar charts are the solution to the ummah problem, if you want to see the result of the work of the hizb why don't you go down to a study cicrcle in ure area you might actually see what they brothers have planned, okay distribution may not work for everyone but lets look at it like this 10000 people didn't turn up to London docklands recently for their health as for distribution it is a way to educate the ummah in the realities they face,,,, and i can tell you this when at the mosque we don't distribuute the ummah does come up to and say i want my leaflet ! Mr fraudia like i have said i don't think you really know what the hizb wants when it says the "Khilafah is the need of the time"
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by F R E S H: *
Fraudz without seeming rude you seem very slow to me, *
and without seeming rude, you come of as a brainwashed HT goon. :)
*first of all i have explained all the points to you but for ure sake i will try to answer them again, *
you have explained, but you had no answers, you could say that you dont have the answers to my questions because frankly..you do not.
*the long term is not the Khilafah the plan is to achieve the Khilafah be it in 5 years or tomorrow like i have said the Khilafah will come from Allah swt but we have to work for it, *
Okay, so you are "working" for khilafah..if tomorrow khilafah happens do we not have the problems that we face, illiteracy, infrastructure, social discord, poverty. How will be even keep it together. Should we not then be adressing these issues too?
*Mr fraudia i have also said the message of Islam return to the islamic way of life is more important than names and numbers, that is why the brothers always stress the point why the Khilafah is needed, *
names and numbers are important, why should I waste my time on a group who does not know its leadership, who meets in secret like a cult and who has no way of demonstrating what positive impact they have actually made. Rhetoric yes, maybe some education yes..but nothing concrete, nothing measureable.
*why are you so interested in the admin side it is not important *
Where do ppl's funds and efforts go to, how is it being utilized. is it EFFECTIVE or are there better approaches or better ways to do this. I dont see a mechanism to chart and monitor this effectiveness. It is important.
You are saying the important thing is that the car has been driven for 50 years to win the race. I am asking you to see if you have guages to see what speed you are going at, did you make the laps at the speed you wanted to, are you stuck in one place and not moving ..the engine may be making noise, you may be using up fuel but maybe you are stuck there in nuetral.
*the importance is the Ummah realises that the Khilafah will sove the issue of pverty and illiteracy, *
so khilfah comes and badabing badaboom. illiteracy and poverty is solved in one day? in one year? in one decade?
Why cant we use some of that effort in trying to solve these problems now, so when Khilafah does come people will nto rip it apart due to infighting and hatred and xenophobia as they did in the past.
*i don't think you understand what the Khilafah is, it is easy to say it is the Islamic state but what in real terms does that mean ? Have you read islamic histroy when the khilafah was predominant and the muslims were world leaders and the Islamic civilisation shone and was the envy of the kuffar, *
By your own definition, were any of those khaleefas really khaleefas? after khulfa-e-rashideen, how many real khaleefas did you have?
are you talking about the fatimid, and ummayad monarchs, the sultans..or the ottoman emperors? the dynasties were not khalifas. So if you wish to attribute achievments in those days to a khilafah sadly you are incorrect because it was a monarchy, and not a khlilafah.
So maybe you should be focused on the establishment of an emppire.
*as for the brothers runnign round in circles, everyone who has ever come to know the work of the hizb know it is very well organised, *
and that is why HT can not answer simple questions. very well organized indeed :)
so maybe they dont want the public and even their own minions to know how they operate and who calls the shots eh?
which statement is more accurate?
*lol i see you like to play with words fraudia if you think a few flash pie charts and bar charts are the solution to the ummah problem, *
No chanda, charts and graphs only are a graphical representation of analysis of progress or even current situation based on a few key parameters you have chosen as indicators.
if you have no parameters, if you have no gauges..then you have no real idea of how well or poorly you are doing.
*if you want to see the result of the work of the hizb why don't you go down to a study cicrcle in ure area you might actually see what they brothers have planned, *
I am more familiar with HT than you will be for some time to come. You come to me thinking that I have had no real experience with HT?
*okay distribution may not work for everyone but lets look at it like this 10000 people didn't turn up to London docklands recently for their health *
okay so you had 10K ppl there, Great job, hip hip hooray..now what? what happens next?
as for distribution it is a way to educate the ummah in the realities they face,,,, and i can tell you this when at the mosque we don't distribuute the ummah does come up to and say i want my leaflet !
*Mr fraudia like i have said i don't think you really know what the hizb wants when it says the "Khilafah is the need of the time" *
OH I dont have any problems with Khilafah. But there are real things an organization of Ht's size can do to start solving current problems. If "educating" ppl and hoping for Allah to create a khilafah which is a big time civilization is what HT is all about then I dont need HT to do that.
Those handfuls who do read their literature are their members… And btw, some of the stuff the HT has on its site is pretty funny, I dont go and read it, but thanks to some hate mongers, plenty of it is posted at the forums here…
Spock whicih country did you visit this time 
So you find the articles funny but you don’t read them that really makes sense not 
bhagoray :)
ahem
Yeah, let me state another Hizb article here for your records...
The Government in Pakistan recently announced a population programme to keep a long term check on the population explosion in the country, and the hizb ul tahriq members could do nothing but say, it was an order from the US so that the population of Pakistan does not exceed and they dont succeed in taking over the US, hahahaha
Hizb-ul-Tahrik, maybe they should run their own television channels and throw all these jokes there ;) 50 years and a hanful of supporters still trying to restore their caliph.