Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

[hiccup]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

@Lajawab

Hiccsy, there are two ways of thinking…The right way and a different way…I personally don’t consider anyone’s thinking as wrong because to everyone else their thinking is right…For a Mullah like myself that’s a pretty open minded approach…

Now having gotten that aside, for me the right way of thinking is weighing what is Islamically correct…For someone raised in the west (Not pointing fingers at you) the correct way is whatever their hearts desire or what current political correctness or media dictates…

Most often it clashes with what is Islamically correct in which case for me it ceases to remain different but becomes outright wrong…

For many people who are knowledgable in Islam many things are outright wrong and against Islam…For those who are ignorant about the teachings of Islam, these knowledgable people come across as ignorant, bigotted, narrow minded, illiterate brick walls who stand between them and progress, art, or the fulfillment of one’s desires e.t.c…

Many Prophets of Allah :swt: have been ostracised, hated, despised, tortured and killed for their teachings and the knowledge they had…It was all a matter of the knowledge one had and how they conflicted against the norms of society…

If the criteria as a Muslim was for one to lead an austere, simple and a life dedicated to obeying the commands of God, then no doubt, many of us, the mod-Muslims, would fall quite short of being knowledgable let alone educated…

As a result, we conflict with the religious people not on the basis of our knowledge but on the basis of our ignorance…While they come from the source of timeless and ancient wisdom we come from desires and media induced sense of self righteousness…

Because the media tells us how art is so beautiful, to be appreciated, to be held under the sun and to revel in its glory, we accept art without realizing its conflict with a system of belief we profess to follow…We are traitors to our faith and to Allah :swt: because we are being trained and taught to be traitors all in the name of political correctness…While those who are upholding and sticking to their values are being labelled as downright ignorant…

It’s not OK to accept a dancing girl who dances for others’ pleasures as OK…Islamically, it is demeaning to the female to be set upon the stage as an object of art for every Tom, Dick and Harry to come an admire…It demeans the woman as nothing more than a trained monkey who jumps, shakes and wiggles on cue from the beats of a drum like a trained monkey…

But, as a western thinking person, it is art…It is glory, it is appreciated and it is accepted because it’s OK…It is glorifying the human body as an art form to be looked and gazed upon for its beauty…

If I accept that, I am a hypocrite…I don’t want to be a hypocrite…I consider it wrong Islamically and would oppose it…I am going to be titled many things like ignorant, uneducated, bigotted, narrow minded, backwards, Jahil and many others…Who cares…I am just trying to be a Muslim…It’s better than professing to be one and saying everything’s OK…That’s hypocrisy…

You can tell her you disagree with actions, you can go further by making yourself a better Muslim. To lead by example rather than by word-of-mouth only. You are not a prophet, there is a reason why hazrat Mohammad (saw) was the last messenger of Allah-miah. The rest of you self proclaimed mullahs are too self-important and flawed to be in any place of judgment or guidance. Fact.

Now, so far as us “western” reared Muslims are concerned. We know that the world is vast and multi-layered, we believe in religion as something sacred. We believe in tolerance and we believe that everyone goes to their own God.

The reason you don’t care what people think (allot of people) is because you assume you are on a moral high, you think that by condemning others loudly and insinuating that she is a prostitute (naachnai wali) that her house was a brothel etc etc, that makes you seem like a better person in the eyes of Allah. Do you really think God cares about your opinions? He sees everything, it is all about your niat and your heart. If you genuinely gave an opinion with the best of intentions rest assured that no on e would mind taking your advice, people get pissed off at you because it is glaringly obvious that you judge people, a privilege that is exclusively Divine. how presumptuous of you even to suppose you have that right.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

@SJToronto

. Dancing is not haram, since you mullahs are so used to following your arab gods, what about their bellydancers? its all a double standard. A women becomes a whore and a sinner because she dances? To hell with a god that has nothing better to do than put to sin girls who dance, theres far worse going on this world. Grow up, get educated

SJtoronto and hiccup
I dont know if she is a hooker or not I cannot pass a judgement like that but I can safely say dancing for sake of art is forbiddden in all fiqahs
Enforcing sharia does not imply copying arab culture,bellydancing is a part of arab culture pre-islamic and sadly practices like these became common after the demise of the pious sahaba and Tabaeen.
regarding the rest of your post, Islam is not a religion where you can practice whatever you want and no questions will be asked simply for the sake of "artistic freedom"
Islam is a dictatorship of God.In some cases individual freedom is allowed(in certain prectices) in others it is not.Dancing seems to be the latter
Having said that we are here to condemn actions not individuals,we cannot say who is muslim or not simply because they dont follow certain parts of the sharia, it dosent mean however that the religious authorities have no right to criticize anyone simply because they are not perfect themselves.
Even the Sahaba and Tabaeen were not perfect yet they tried to enforce the sharia the best of their ability.Granted the fact that none amongst us (not even the most learned) can aspire to be equal to the dust in the nostrils of the horses of the** pious** Sahaba/Tabaeen,but it is a duty of those who are the most learned( I mean Ulemas not people like myself) to see the religious injunctions are not violated lest the distinction between good and evil is blurred.IMHO the ulema for the most part try to do just that.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

@hiccup

Das, I don't believe you, but be sure to replace bollywood with MTV, same applies.

.

you are free to believe what you want
I will repeat again I have never liked/bought/rented any indian songs/movies
I admit as a teenager I had a really big alternative rock music collection but it has been 2-3yrs since I have given it all up

[NeSCio]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

Let's keep it clean shall we? No need for name-calling and personal insults. PM serves that purpose

[The_Curmudgeon]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

Bharatnatyam is certainly one of the highest artforms that bring body mind and soul together. I have seen people completely alien get transformed in the fisrt 30 minutes of watching.

While all songs to which they dance are in reference to the Gods, whether you are Hindu or Muslim, it is impossible to feel anything other than appreciation of the non-stop alignment of melody rhythm movement and expression. You will not be able to entertain crude thoughts when you watch a decent rendition.

My compliments to Rubya and her parents and hope they prevail. And to those who believe their religion prohibits them from appreciating such a Gift of God to mankind, my condolences.

[Lajawab]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

I think trained animals are much more fun to watch…Any human can be trained to dance…But to see a chimp move to the trill of the dugdugee is truly God’s gift to mankind…It’s truly a moving and spiritual experience…:bhangra:

My regrets to those who find humans jumping and gyrating to the sound of drums as spiritual…:hinna:

[SolarOceans]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

It's interesting how in the desi porn thread, many people supported the view that it's between the guy who watches porn and God. . .and in this thread, we feel the need to point out what she's doing wrong and exclude her and family from the islamic community.

Personally, i don't know enough about this to say whether its right or wrong. . but i do know that making someone an "outcast" will never lead them to Islam. It will only serve to alienate. . . something I see many Muslims doing quite well to other Muslims.

[The_Curmudgeon]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

@Lajawab

I think trained animals are much more fun to watch…Any human can be trained to dance…But to see a chimp move to the trill of the dugdugee is truly God’s gift to mankind…It’s truly a moving and spiritual experience…:bhangra:

My regrets to those who find humans jumping and gyrating to the sound of drums as spiritual…:hinna:

what a sad individual you must be to call dancing that! Humans jumping and gyrating? let’s see -

humans jump to shoot hoops
to catch a ball
to long ^ high jump
to dive
to snow board
to bungee
to dance

… and all happy doing that.

[skhan]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

In Islam if you come across someone doing something wrong, as a Muslim you are obliged to do one of 3 things. First, for those of strong faith, we should take action to stop the wrong doing. Second, for those of weaker faith, we should speak out against the wrong doing. Third, for those of even weaker faith, we should at least condemn the wrong doing within our heart.

It is a sign of the times where today, instead of doing either of those 3 things, Muslims rush forward in a bid to be the first to defend and justify blatant acts in violation of Islam. They thereby prove to the lords in the West, and to themselves, that they are liberal, modern and enlightened.

It's almost as if we think we will be judged by our political correctness in this world rather than how we followed Islam as it was brought to us by the Prophet (PBUH).

After all, all of us go to our own personal God, then we meet up in Eden, hold hands and sing kumbaya.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

@skhan

It is a sign of the times where today, instead of doing either of those 3 things, Muslims rush forward in a bid to be the first to defend and justify blatant acts in violation of Islam. They thereby prove to the lords in the West, and to themselves, that they are liberal, modern and enlightened.

.

couldnt agree more brother

[Das_Reich]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

This ruling is clearly stressed in the following fatwa issued by Dr. Husam al-Din Ibn Musa `Afana, a professor of Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence at Al-Quds University, Palestine:

“It is not permissible for Muslim girls to participate in folk dancing groups as such act is Haram in Islam for the following reasons:

1- Free and unlawful mixing between men and women who play the roles in such folk dance. Such form of illicit mixing is Haram in Islam.

2- It is also unlawful for Muslim girls to take part in such dancing performances even without men’s participation as such women-only performances are intended to make shows for the general public, which is unlawful.

3- No one can deny that folk dance is usually accompanied by unlawful music, which is also Haram and forbidden.

4- Such dancing performances do disseminate moral laxity and ill morals in a Muslim society, which is also forbidden.

5-Muslims have to be aware of such cultural invasion. It’s to be borne in mind that what is known as folk arts is not a heritage of the Muslim Ummah. *The heritage of Islam and true Muslims has nothing to do with such insignificant and trivial kind of art. Muslims should be proud of their Islamic creed, laurels of their great Muslim men. *

On the basis of the above, I conclude that it is totally forbidden for Muslim girls to participate in such dancing performances. It not also allowed for Muslim men to allow their daughters, wives, sisters to participate in such folk dancing groups and the likes of it.”

Allah Almighty knows best.

[shweetdreamz]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

kaleem uncle my personal view is you commit a huge sin by degenerating the beautiful body God has given you thru smoking and eating red meat and unhealthy foods. mager aap ki marzi aap jitni marzi smoke keejiay...
i find dancing to be one of the ways to discipline yourself. see we got a brain to USE and joints to MOVE:D...God indeed is a great artist himself.
...
the same way if I go today and kiss a mazaar of some Pir baba and ask for help then i dont think most muslims will have a problem.....but if i go to a mandir and do a dua they might burn me alive....labels labels labels.
i do see a problem with the family having to worry about whether or not they will have a place for a proper burial.

My question is....do you think the bayghairat father deserves to be denied a proper muslim burial because he let his daughter practice classical dance??? are the same rules tightly enforced when a pathan baba who slept with little boys all his life dies??

Solar Oceans ...great point raised about the pornography thingy.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

@shweetdreamz

the same way if I go today and kiss a mazaar of some Pir baba and ask for help then i dont think most muslims will have a problem.....but if i go to a mandir and do a dua they might burn me alive....labels labels labels. .

Although many "puritan" muslims might disagree with me
but there is a HUGE difference between the two.
In the first case you are actually asking from Allah(swt) thru the intercession of a saint.Who himself was a devoted servant of Allah.
In a mandir you are asking from a false deity that is SHIRK.

[shweetdreamz]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

Das reich regardless.....for them that deity REPRESENTS God...im sure they understand the "murti" itself isnt God but actually one of the ways to integrate God into their lives....for hindus, different paths all lead to the one same god. but that is a different issue...its all about the intention. some people wear a necklace saying ALLAH and think it will protect them from jinns, some wear taveez. some kiss the ALAM (flag) and some go under the Zuljanah (the sacred horse)....all to get closer to god.....but in effect disciplining society.
all religions came and disciplined society based on the norms existing AT THAT TIME....as did islam...

and how does engaging in classical dance forms show you are liberal and trying to please the west???

[Kaleem]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

@shweetdreamz

kaleem uncle my personal view is you commit a huge sin by degenerating the beautiful body God has given you thru smoking and eating red meat and unhealthy foods. mager aap ki marzi aap jitni marzi smoke keejiay... i find dancing to be one of the ways to discipline yourself. see we got a brain to USE and joints to MOVE:D...God indeed is a great artist himself. ... the same way if I go today and kiss a mazaar of some Pir baba and ask for help then i dont think most muslims will have a problem.....but if i go to a mandir and do a dua they might burn me alive....labels labels labels. i do see a problem with the family having to worry about whether or not they will have a place for a proper burial.

My question is....do you think the bayghairat father deserves to be denied a proper muslim burial because he let his daughter practice classical dance??? are the same rules tightly enforced when a pathan baba who slept with little boys all his life dies??

Solar Oceans ...great point raised about the pornography thingy.

Shweety, thank you for your concern regarding my beautiful body. May I remind you that I am already taken :).
Lets get serious, it is not a matter of what I want or you want. In Islam there are certain rules that a muslim must abide by. Trust me dancing in front of other men does not fall into any category of Islamic behavior.
Do you really go to those mazars to ask for help? How in the hell a dead person going to help you. If you want to go to mandir and pray, you may want to announce that you are not a muslim any more. Stones and morats never did help any one and never will. You can ask to your heart's content but they cannot do a dang thing.
Lastly, I never did participate in that porn thread as far as I recall. My position on it will be the same ....both men and women participating in such activity are committing zina and are sinful.

[shweetdreamz]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

[Das_Reich]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

@shweetdreamz

[quote] Das reich regardless.....for them that deity REPRESENTS God...im sure they understand the "murti" itself isnt God but actually one of the ways to integrate God into their lives.

so was Hubal the stone god of Abusufyan for them it was the true god
but Rasulallah(saw) shattered it to pieces with his sword.
If all statues represented the same God or divine creation he would have treated them as people of the book.
Islam stands for religious tolerance towards some faiths but idolworship(polytheism) is forbidden no matter what these idols represent.Hindus as far as I know have a god for every occasion so I am not really sure what their statues represent how can you be sure they represent the God of Abraham?
and even if SOME of them do they always add partners to God so that again is shirk
.
[quote]

some people wear a necklace saying ALLAH and think it will protect them from jinns, some wear taveez. some kiss the ALAM (flag) and some go under the Zuljanah (the sacred horse)....all to get closer to god.....but in effect disciplining society.
all religions came and disciplined society based on the norms existing AT THAT TIME....as did islam...

[/quote]

kissing the Alam( the standard of the Prophet) is showing respect and should be nothing more than that,it does not in anyway represent idolatry
I am not familiar with the going under the horse ritual.

[quote]

and how does engaging in classical dance forms show you are liberal and trying to please the west???

[/quote]

I actually never used those words
but I still dont think classical dance is a practice that should be encouraged in anyway

[Lajawab]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

Just a question to those with Muslim names (in real life) in this thread that are supporting the girl in her sensuous artform of dancing…

Do you not find anything wrong with this Muslim girl dancing for the public?

Since we are talking Islamically, if you answer yes, you do find something wrong with it, then support your claims according to the Quran or Sunnah…

If you answer no, I do not find anything wrong with it, then prove that Islam has noting to say about the subject…

Since as we know, Muslims follow Allah :swt:'s Commands or they cease to be Muslims, I would like your answers to be based on certain commands…

Keep in mind, someone who denies Zakat, Salat, or Roza or tries to legalize what is forbidden like pork or decadence and forbid what is legal like polygamy or Jihad are out of the fold of Islam…(I can give examples how upon being asked…)

Right now my question to those who profess to be Muslims is: Do you not find anything wrong with a Muslim girl dancing in public?

Gracias…

[lazy_daisy]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

Interesting thread, reminds me of the Sania Mirza one...

[The_Curmudgeon]

Re: Muslim girl treated as outcast by moque community

@Das Reich

Allah Almighty knows best.

that's right. and he has inspired this girl to learn and perform Bharatnatyam....who are you all to question God?