Music and its status in Islam

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Assalam Allaikum Brothers and sisters in Islam,

Since this is a forum where we come to learn about the different aspects of Islam, I consider we should look into the what is consider as ma’aruf and munkar in Islam also. To this end, Inshallah we must post articles relating to the things that we are commanded to do and the things that are forbidden by Allah Subhanau Ta’ala. Here is a ruling by a scholar regarding listening and playing the music.

The website can be reached at http://members.aol.com/TrueIzOne/MusicSing.html

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Brother Iqadeer,

Assalamu alaykum! This is an interesting topic; yes, the majority of the ulama and the sufiyya e karaam have declared music (with instruments) to be haraam though there IS difference of opinion amongst the scholars; however singing [taghanni] without instruments is considered jaiz with some conditions. wallahu aalam.

A superb discussion of this is found in this article. It is too long to quote fully here:
http://207.226.235.205/Endless_Bliss_Fourth_Fascicle/Endless_Bliss_Fourth_Fascicle_Chapter_24.htm

wa salaam

Asif :slight_smile:

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Note that there is no clear koranic injunction or hadith against music! all of them speak of certain other problems, related to music. this is evident in all the above verses.

If for example, a hadith says, we must not sleep with a na-mehram woman, will this mean we must not sleep at all?

-------- ** 1 **

"And of mankind he who purchases idle talks to mislead (people) from the Path of Allah
without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allah) by way of mockery. For such there
will be a humiliating torment." (Luqman 31:6)

This verse does not talk about music at all!!

Note that the idle talk in this verse can not be mentioning singing, as this is evident from the cotext of this verse. read for yourself, and it will be evident.

------- ** 2 **

"From among my nation, there will be people who will render as lawful adultery, wearing
silk (for men), Al-Khamr (liquor) and Al-Maa’azif (musical instruments)."

Note that the main point in the hadith is that such musicians will commit adultry!

there is no such saying in any book which colely and clearly denounces music!

-------- ** 3 **

Note in this quote:
"They use musical instruments, drums and female singers. (One day) they will go to sleep after a night of drinking and having fun. In the morning, they will be transformed (by Allah (SWT) into monkeys and swine."

That the main point in this hadith is "go to sleep after a night of drinking.." clarifying what aspect of music is forbidden.

------- ** 4 **
"Their prayer at the House (Ka’bah) was nothing but Muka’an and Tasdiyah" (8:35) 

           Ibn Abbas, ibn Uamr, Atiyyah, Mujahid, Ad-Dhahh’ak, Al-Hasan and Qatadah (RU) said
           that Muka’an means whistling, and that Tasdiyah means clapping of hands.

Note that in the above verse, as we read the koran, we find out that allah does ** not ** denounce clapping and whistling, but says that the prayers were as meaningless, and empty of fear and love of god, as if they were just standing there clapping and whistling!

This verse does not talk about anything against clapping or whistling, but against meaningless prayers!!!

=======================================

** here are some age old traditions which talk solely about music without any relationship to anything else**

note that it is a well established fact, that when prophet mohammad entered madina, he was welcomed ** by a play of * duff * ( a kind of drum ) by little girls!**

Note that here, the players are female, and an instrument is being played, yet it is encouraged, rather than being discouraged!

The third categpry of the rightful acts of sunnah includes such acts which the prophet saw, and did not denounce!

This clearly means that using a musical instrument is rightful, and is not against islam.

Another tradition is of amarriege when some young girls were singing songs. when prophet mohammad came by, the girls were ordered to stop.

"nay" said the prophet! " let them sing ".

note that the singer are ** females ** as was defined in the statments given by i qadeer, yet as they are not associated to sinful acts as present in the i qadeer's ahadith, they have been allowed to continue! thus proving my point.

The second category of rightful deeds of sunnah includes such acts which the holy prophet saw, and speak in favour of!

Hence it is extremely unhealthy to use the hadith as used by i qadeer, to claim that musical instruments or singing is forbidden in islam!

[This message has been edited by jewels of insignificance (edited June 17, 1999).]

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As JOI put it

[quote]
"They use musical instruments, drums and female singers. (One day) they will go to sleep after a night of drinking and having fun. In the morning, they will be transformed (by Allah (SWT) into monkeys and swine."

That the main point in this hadith is "go to sleep after a night of drinking.." clarifying what aspect of music is forbidden.
[/quote]

It seems to me that mentioning of music and singing has just been used to portray the overall picture of activities of the people who commit certain type of sins. And the main sin mentioned is adultry or drinking. But then, there could also be the cases of people who would listen to music but not commit adultry or drink alcohol.

A very vague analogy I can think of is considering the example of someone who spends most of his time in front of computer and hacking. One can say that "He spends most of his time in front of computer. He hacks different companies' systems. He would be punished for that one day." Now, in this context, the actuall immoral or illegal activity is hacking the systems, not spending most of the time in front of computer. There is nothing immoral about spending too much time in front of computer if one chooses to, the statement has been used to portray more like the lifestyle of a typical hacker and hence enforce the overall effect of the statement.

You know, I always thought these kind of statements whether they are interepretations of religious beliefs or words of prophets, can always be measured scientifically to determine their true meaning or validity in the modern world.

For example, if the belief is that music is sickening and weakens the heart (after taking it in psychological terms and much inferring upon because weakening of heart and sickening is too vague an expression and can mean anything and could apply to any psychological condition) then it is quite feasible to conduct a psychiatric research to determine the effects of music among people who listen to music as compared to those who don't.
Based on such scientific studies, a statistical and accurate conclusion can be reached upon.

Why muslims still take ulmas words on these matters over more accurate scientific information that can be reached, in the modern world while they have the adequate tools to test them?

Now consider another excerpt from iqadeer's starting post:

[quote]
"Listening to music and sinful fun are among what strengthens the satanic ways the most. This is exactly what the disbelievers used to do. Allah (SWT) said,...
[/quote]

Does it sound too vague? What is meant by satanic ways here? Specifically, what would result if such ways would be adopted by someone? Now, besides listening to music will result in any harmful lifestyle or not, my point in referring to the above saying is that taking just as it says, would it sound logical and practical to a person living in modern world? Won't someone ask in return "Why is listening to music considered satanic? What would it result? What is the proof that it will result in a harmful way and how did you deduce such an inference?" Unless someone comes with answers to these questions, showing practical proofs of the validity of the belief, it won't make sense to just take the words as it is and burn your expensive CD collections.

The point of above rambling is that, if you want to convince someone, you would need solid proofs or logical reasons to support what you are saying. A simple statement from an Ulma (whether or not that statement is valid) without backing up statement with logical proof is does not make much sense to be followed or accepted as a norm. It would be equivalent to start doing something without knowing why you are doing it.

[This message has been edited by Roman (edited June 17, 1999).]

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Assalam Allaikum,

I know the topic is controversial by judging the rampant popularity of music in all cultures and religions including even among today's muslims, however, my intent was not pointed towards anyone rather I was merely presenting an opinion that I concur with.

Br. Asif,
Jazak Allah for your valuable input regarding the difference of opinion. This topic could get very sticky indeed.

Jewels,
I thank you for your scholarly input regarding this topic but I beg to differ with you on this one too.

The key word in the ayaat is "idle talks to mislead" and that's what I consider mostly the music that is produced in today's world with very tiny exception to the ones produced as a tribute to a religious figure. You may notice the context of the incident of the girl's that were singing was to praise our Beloved Sayiddana Mohammad (Sallalaho Allaihi Wassalam) and I am all for such singing provided its done for Allah or his Rasool (Sallalaho Allaihi Wassalam).

Roman,

Yes, Listening to someone's words greatly influences a person's personality as does watching something like on TV or discussing about a subject. This is all psychology and Islam is the deen of nature. Why is there a high rate of violence among black youths, perhaps this answers the questions. I am afraid to say that today's music does nothing more than arouse lower instincts in its listener. Its either about man fantasizing about women, in case of Popular western music its about violence, sex, passion, lust, etc all the subjects are known to cause problems. This is my opinion and you are more than welcome to disagree.

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Dear i qadeer,

now you're showing a balanced approach. what should be condemned, is * lughviyaat *. Music can, or can not be counted in them, depending upon the situation.

Thus music is a mere way of expression! and islam does not put barriers on expression at all. people can talk vulgarity. people can write vulgarity. does this mean we all should stop talking and writing too?

Koran has clearly told us a lot of things which we should keep away from, and a lot of things we should do. but there is no mention of music either way. Islam is indifferent to music.

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Ok, using JOI's logic, let's consider an anology involving games. The games which involve gambling are obviously prohibited by Islam so let's take an example of the one that does not. For example, there are games which are not prohibited because the have positive effect or serve to entertain people. For example, there is nothing wrong with playing a game of pool or bowling. People find both quite entertaining. But if someone would start gambling on these games then that would be wrong if gambling is prohibited by that's person's religion. So if such games have potential of gambling then why they are not haram? And keep in mind that even all the sports can be or are gambled upon! Next thing we will know that Cricket is haram because people gamble on them or it causes violance among Indians and Pakistanis.

Same is the case with music. There are all types of music. Don't tell me Enigma's music is bad or haram. It's so soothing and relaxing, and enjoyable as well. A lot of country music tell the stories of heroes and bravery. In other words, thousand of different kinds of emotions and expressions can best be expressed using music, and yet they won't have anything to do with sex, lust or other things that you mentioned (some of which are even debatable, but let's not go there for simplicity' sake).

Declaring music haram just because of certain aspects will destroy the potential of greater good in terms of entertainment, art and beauty that it contributes to.

It's the nature of human beings to express themselves in manners of menifested beauty and if Islam is 'Deen' of nature then why music is haram since it is one of the prominant forms of perfromance which reflects natural beauty, emotions, and art?

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Roman,
As I said, I am not an Alim, however, in my humble opinion anything that has inherent harms associated with it are bad such as alcohol, and eating pork is also relatively a health risk because of fat content and trichnosis disease. As a muslim, however, I don't necessarily try to find logic behind why things are haraam. I obey it since it is commanded by Allah. If for example, its commanded by the Quran or the hadith to avoid something, and I don't find a logical reason why, I wouldn't reject it. This is my morality and way of thinking. You may have a different perspective. I hold ulema in the highest esteem since they are inheritors of our beloved Mohammad's (Sallalaho Allaihe Wasslam) legacy. They possess knowledge of Quran and hadith and as such deserve respect and honor.

Alcohol has too some benefits as is mentioned in the Quran but then again its harms outweigh its benefits therefore its haraam. Similarly, music has more harmful effects than positive, therefore I obey the ruling presented above by the ulema. How many people can you count of your head who pray conscientously, fast, possess best moral behavior are really good muslims and also happen to like music. Not many! On the other hand, you will see most of the people who like music, commit all sorts of sins without the slightest remorse. Once again, it is only my insignificant and error-prone observation. I seek refuge in Allah from all that is evil and from the deception of my nafs and shaitaan.

Finally, I think there is not more left for discussion on this subject, therefore this might be my last post in this thread.

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dear i qadeer,
woh zamana guzar gaya hai, jab log molvi sahab ki baat sun kay forun maan laitay thay! ab logic say baat hoti hai! jaisa kay koran nay ki hai!

please throw some light on your strange statment in the first line of the second paragraph.

Please tell us where in the koran is it stated that alcohl has benefits? in the whole koran, there is ** no mention of alcohl at all. ** agar hai, to aap yahaan hamain likh kay bataain.

Although it is said in the koran that such things which are addictive or which make us lose self-control are prohibited, which is a straightforward no, to all wines cigarettes and drugs!

but there aint any verse in the koran which tells us that music is harmful! period!
stop relating your personal opinion to the koran! it is a well established fact that music has not been talked about in the koran!

All of us have our own conscience to decide what are harmful and helpful effects of music. Koran has not mentioned music, therefore giving us a free choice to decide what is best for us. And we are all answerable to god for our deeds, which we think we can.

koran does not support your point of view. period!

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I will ‘take the A train” any day! Music and entertainment have existed long before religions were ‘invented’. Music will live long after religions are gone.

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Jewels,
I don't know where you get off being so hostile. This forum is not visited by bona fide, 100 percent true scholars of Islam and my remarks, may Allah forgive me were merely my personal opinions. I am still baffled why is there so much aggression in your tone. This is not supposed to be a me against you or do or die case. I am not a scholar therefore bound to make mistakes. If you think that music is a choice then more power to you. Yes, there is no verse about music in the Quran, but there are commandments in the ahadith that were revealed to our beloved Mohammad (Sallalaho Allaihe Wasallam) besides the Quran and believing in them is equally binding on us since they were not his personal feelings.

Now I concede that there is no such verse in the Quran about alcohol, however, speaking from retention, there is an ayaat, if time permitting, I'll dig it out, that deals with intoxicants where it says that there harms are outweighed by benefits. I am sure that you've read the ayaat. Once again, I follow the ulema in the earnest since they spend time in aquiring the knowledge of deen which very few of us have time to attain otherwise. You, being an Ahmadi, are bound to have differences regarding the interpretation of the Quran with us, therefore, I would like to hear some sunni opinion on this issue as well.

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Here is another ruling from another scholar about the status of music. Perhaps this may illuminate you and others who have doubts about music being haraam.

"Praise be to Allaah.

The aayaat of the Qur’aan and the Ahaadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) indicate that musical instruments are condemned, and warn us against them. The Qur’aan teaches that playing these instruments is one of the things that leads people astray and constitutes mockery of the Signs of Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talk to mislead (men) from the Path of Allaah, without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allaah, the Verses of the Qur’aan) by way of mockery. For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-fire).” [Luqmaan 31:6]

Most of the scholars interpreted lahw al-hadeeth (“idle talk”) as meaning singing and musical instruments, and every voice that diverts people from the truth.

Al-Tabari (Jaami’ al-Bayaan, 15/118-119), Ibn Abi’l-Dunya (Dham al-Malaahi, 33) and Ibn al-Jawzi (Talbees Iblees, 232) all reported that concerning the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“[Allaah said to Shaytaan;] ‘And istafziz [literally means befool them gradually] those whom you can with your voice, make assaults on them with your cavalry and your infantry, mutually share with them wealth and children, and make promises to them.’ But Shaytaan promises them nothing but deceit” [al-Isra’ 17:64]

Mujaahid said, “This refers to singing and flutes.”

Al-Tabari reported that al-Hasan al-Basri said:

“His voice is the tambourine.”

Ibn al-Qayyim said in Ighaathat al-Lahfaan (1/252):

“The grammatical structure here (idaafah – genitive or possessive) is used to make something specific (idaafat al-takhsees), and in all these words in the aayah it refers back to the Shaytaan [addressed here as ‘you’ by Allaah, may He be glorified]. Everyone who speaks about anything other than obedience of Allaah or plays a reed pipe, flute, tambourine or drum, all of this is the voice of Shaytaan.”

Al-Tirmidhi reported in his Sunan (no. 1005) from Ibn Abi Layla from ‘Ata’ from Jaabir (may Allaah be pleased with him) who said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) went to to al-Nakhl with ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf, when his son Ibraaheem was dying. He took the child in his lap and his eyes filled with tears. ‘Abd al-Rahmaan said, ‘Are you weeping when you have forbidden us to weep?’ He said, 'I do not forbid weeping. What I have forbidden is two foolish and evil kinds of voices: voices at times of entertainment and play and the flutes of the Shaytaan, and voices at times of calamity and scratching the face and rending the garments and screaming.’”

Al-Tirmidhi said: this is a hasan hadeeth. It was also reported by al-Haakim in al-Mustadrak, no. 1683, al-Bayhaqi in al-Sunan al-Kubra (4/69), al-Tayaalisi in Musnad (no. 1683) and by al-Tahhaawi in Sharh al-Ma’aani, 4/29, and it was classed as hasan by al-Albaani.

Al-Nawawi said: “What is meant here is singing and musical instruments.” See Tuhfat al-Ahwadhi, 4/88.

It was reported in a saheeh hadeeth from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “In my ummah there will be people who allow fornication/adultery (zina), silk, wine and musical instruments [ma’aazif]. Some people will stay at the side of a mountain, and they will have flocks of sheep. When a poor person comes in the evening to ask them for something he needs, they will say. ‘Come back to us tomorrow.’ Then during the night Allaah will destroy them by causing the mountain to fall upon them, while He changes others into apes and swine. They will remain in such a state until the Day of Resurrection.’”

(Reported by al-Bukhaari in al-Saheeh mu’allaqan, 51/10. Reported mawsoolan by al-Bayhaqi in al-Sunan al-Kubra, 3/272; al-Tabaraani in al-Mu’jam al-Kabeer, 3/319; and Ibn Hibbaan in al-Saheeh (8/265-266). Classed as saheeh by Ibn al-Salaah in ‘Uloom al-Hadeeth (32), Ibn al-Qayyim in Ighaathat al-Lahfaan (255) and Tahdheeb al-Sunan (5/270-272), al-Haafiz in al-Fath (10/51) and al-Albaani in al-Saheehah (1/140)).

Al-Haafiz said in al-Fath (10/55): Ma’aazif refers to musical instruments. Al-Qurtubi reported from al-Jawhari that ma’aazif meant singing, and what it says in his book al-Sihaah is that it refers to musical instruments. It was also said that it is the sound of musical instruments. In a footnote by al-Dimyaati it says: ma’aazif is tambourines and other kinds of drums. The word ‘azif is applied to singing and all other kinds of instruments that may be played.

Ibn al-Qayyim said in Ighaathat al-Lahfaan (1/256):

The evidence for this is that ma’aazif refers to all kinds of things used for entertainment. There is no dispute among scholars of the Arabic language on this point. If they were halaal, he would not have condemned those who permitted them, or compared permitting them to permitting wine and zina.

We may understand from the hadeeth that all kinds of musical instruments are forbidden. This is clear from the hadeeth for a number of reasons:

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said “… there will be people who allow…” It is clear that the things listed here, including musical instruments, are forbidden in sharee’ah, but those people will allow them.

He compared musical instruments to things that are definitely known to be haraam, namely zina and alcohol. If instruments were not haraam, he would not have made this comparison. The evidence of this hadeeth that singing is haraam is definitive. Even if no other hadeeth or aayah spoke about musical instruments, this hadeeth would be sufficient to prove that they are haraam, especially the kind of singing that is known among people nowadays, the essence of which is obscenity and foul talk, based on all kinds of musical instruments such as guitars, drums, flutes, ouds, zithers, organs, pianos, violins and other things that make it more enticing, such as the voices of these effeminate singers and whores.

(See Hukm al-Ma’aazif by al-Albaani, Tas-heeh al-Ahkta’ wa’l-Awhaam al-Waaqi’ah fi Ahaadeeth al-Nabi ‘alayhi’l-salaam by Raa’id Sabri, 1/176).

Shaykh Ibn Baaz said in Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 3/423-424):

“Ma’aazif refers to singing and musical instruments. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us that at the end of time there will come a people who will allow these things just as they will allow alcohol, zina and silk. This is one of the signs of his Prophethood, for all of this has happened. The hadeeth indicates that [musical instruments] are haraam, and condemns those who say they are halaal, just as it condemns those who say that alcohol and zina are allowed. The aayaat and ahaadeeth that warn against singing and musical instruments are many indeed. Whoever claims that Allaah has allowed singing and musical instruments is lying and is committing a great evil. We ask Allaah to keep us from obeying our desires and the Shaytaan. Even worse and more seriously sinful than that are those who say it is mustahabb. Undoubtedly this stems from ignorance about Allaah and His Religion; it is insolent blasphemy against Allaah and lying about His Laws. What is mustahabb is to beat on the daff [simple hand drum] at weddings. This is mustahabb for women only, in order to announce the wedding and to distinguish it from fornication. There is nothing wrong with women singing amongst themselves, accompanied by the daff, so long as the songs contain no words that encourage evil or distract people from their duties. It is also a condition that this should take place among women only, and there should be no mixing with men. It should also not cause any annoyance or disturbance to neighbours. What some people do, of amplifying such singing with loudspeakers is evil, because of the disturbance it causes to other Muslims, neighbours and others. It is not permissible for women, in weddings or on other occasions, to use any instrument other than the daff, such as the oud, violin, rebab (stringed instrument) and so on. This is evil, and the only concession that women are given is that they may use the daff.

As for men, it is not permissible for them to play any kind of musical instrument, whether at weddings or on any other occasion. What Allaah has prescribed for men is training in the use of instruments of war, such as target practice or learning to ride horses and competing in that, using spears, shields, tanks, airplanes and other things such as cannons, machine guns, bombs and anything else that may help jihaad for the sake of Allaah.”

Shaykh al-Islam said in al-Fataawa (11/569):

“I know that in the ‘golden age’, the first and best three centuries, in the Hijaaz, in Syria, in the Yemen, in Egypt, in the Maghreb, in Iraq, in Khorasan, none of the religious and righteous people, the ascetics and those who worshipped Allaah much, would gather to listen to this whistling and clapping and drum-beating and so on. This was innovated after that at the end of the second century, and whenever the imaams saw it, they denounced it.”

As for these anaasheed which are described as “Islamic” but are accompanied with musical instruments, giving them this name lends them some measure of legitimacy, but in fact they are singing and music, so calling them Islamic nasheeds is falsehood and deception. They cannot be a substitute for singing, as an evil thing cannot be substituted for another evil thing. We should replace something evil with something good. Listening to it on the grounds that it is Islamic and an act of worship is bid’ah, and Allaah does not allow this. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound."

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iqadeer - I still have not been able to find out in your message that why ulma think music is haram? Giving the reason that it is the 'voice of shaytaan' is no reason at all, because in turn it will raise the question why it is voice of shaytaan?.

If alcohol has been prohibited in Islam then it makes sense because it has negative impacts both socially and medically, and they can be measured scientifically. But I am unable to understand that all those ulma, without giving any specific reasons and logical proofs will declare music haram.

Did they conduct a social study? Did they perform any psychiatric tests on humans before coming to this conclusion? Was it their personal opinion or an objective, measureable fact?

You see, if ulmas are going to say something that is going to have an impact on society at collective level then it their responsibilty to prove logically by the means of observable outcomes on something like music. Anything less would be blind faith... doing something without probing its validity.

If Islam is a 'Deen' of nature then everything it says should be provable by the means of logic and observable outcome (there are few things/exceptions to this, of course, because those things are beyong human capability so far to be proved. e.g. creation/origin of universe etc.)
Anything less will raise questions. You are right, we may have different opinions, but on an objective statement like "Islam is a deen of nature", there got to be evidence to support it on everything it stands for. Otherwise there would be doubts on the validity of sayings of ulmas.

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Jewels,
Here is the ayaat regarding alcohol, that I was referring to in the previous posts.

"2:219 They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider- "

Roman,
If the only things that convince you of impermissiblity regarding music are social studies and psychiatric tests then I am sorry to say that in my knowledge at least, there are none at this point to conclude these findings. However, the ruling regarding alcohol and gambling came long before there were any such studies conducted and they confirmed the rulings. Therefore, I think its only a matter of time. Like I said, to me the ahadith are also commandments given by Allah to Rasool (peace be upon him) besides the Quran, and to accept them is equally if not more important. To be a muslim, we must believe in the deen in its entirety and not just pick certain aspects of it.

I ask Allah to guide me and everyone to the right path, and help us in rendering our intentions sincere. Allah knows best.

15

Once in his youth, a poet was travelling in a company of young men proceeding to hejaaz. These young men sang and recited spiritual verses.

In the caravan, there was aholy man, who felt annoyed at this singing.

when the caravan reached the palmgrove of * beni hilaal * one of the young men broke into a song. So effective was his song, that even the birds got down from the sky.

Hearing the music, the camel on which the holy man was riding, felt annoyed with the outbirsts of the holy man interrupting the song. It began to prance, and threw the holy man down!

[This message has been edited by jewels of insignificance (edited June 18, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Roman (edited June 18, 1999).]

16

Dear sir,
why was the poem snipped? i'm sorry but i never found anything wrong with it, otherwise i wouldnt have posted it.

Note that this tale has been translated from persian, and the poem was its conclusion. If you found it offensive, you shouldve removed the whole post.

The poem said that when even a camel's head turned with the frenzy of music, how emotionless is the holy man, who does not understans it!

what is wrong in saying that?

i however apologize if my poem was offensive or against the rules of gupshup.

i'm just posting this because it was SHOCKING!

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JOI: The edited part of your post did not read

[quote]
... when even a camel's head turned with the frenzy of music, how emotionless is the holy man, who does not understans it!
[/quote]
If it had, then I would have not edited it.

iqadeer: Let's consider a hypothetical scenario.

Consider the example of an individual who, say, drinks herbal tea three times a day (I know, it's kind of vague but for simplicity's sake, let's consider it). He enjoys herbal tea very much and it sooths him and blah, blah, blah. Now consider two cases:

Case 1: The individual is told that herbal tea is not good or haram according to his religion. He does not see any reason for it, but still faces the decision to change his lifestyle for a reason that he does not even know or does not seem to make any sense to him. Would it be logical to tell that individual to quit herbal tea without telling him why it is not good? Would it be convincing to the individual?

Case 2: The same individual is told that herbal tea is not good for health because it causes stomach cancer. The proof are the new result found after a scientific study. Despite the fact that that individual will or will not still quit the tea, at least that individual is aware of the consequences, and cannot deny the effects of tea. And he is convinced.

Which of the above cases make more sense from a common person's point of view?

Religious teachings and beliefs impact lifestyles of people. You are supposed to do certain things and not to certain others. If you want people to change their lifestyles or habits, won't you need to present what you are offering in a manner that will convince people and they will act accordingly? Won't you need something that will make sense to people to have them believe in it?

Now, there are things in religion that are based solely on faith since there is no way that those beliefs can be tested to be valid. The classic example is the existence of God. You cannot objectively prove that God exists or not. It is solely a matter of faith and belief without observation or measure. And for such things, it is absolutely fine to have faith in if an individual chooses to.

But for all other things, which can be tested, it does not make sense to follow them based on the faith alone. Because many things could be part of a religion conditioned with the its historical or time context, specific to the customs and traditions of historic era.

Now coming back to your comment

[quote]
...the ruling regarding alcohol and gambling came long before there were any such studies conducted and they confirmed the rulings. Therefore, I think its only a matter of time...**

Ever heard of the expression Fallacy of Composition? The concept implies the assumption that

What is true for the individual or part of a group is NECESSARILY true for the group or the whole

In all social sciences like Economics or Psychology this assumption is considered incorrect.. hence the title Fallacy of Composition. Logically speaking, of all the things based on religious beliefs which can be tested need to avoid Fallacy of Composition.

Hey, if one believes what religion says on these things is true then why avoid testing it? May be Ulmas of our time should consider it before sitting together and issuing a fatawa based on historical sayings or writing! That way a greater mass of people would be convinced and adopt the teachings of religion easily… if they are proved to be true, that is.

18

Roman,
I would not mind to have such studies conducted, however, as you may very well be aware, that these studies are conducted mostly by western scientists supported by western research institutes, therefore, considering the fact that westerners don't consider music to be haraam or at least harmful the chances of such studies to be conducted by them are slim to none.

As I have said previously, for me, the word of the Ulema in the light of the Quran and Hadith is enough of a proof. You may regard it as blind faith or whatever, I am a little too careful to risk doing something which I may later on find out to be against the teachings of the Quran and sunnah. Jazakum Allah khair for your input.

19

Dear roman,

sincere apologies, but this was tranlsted as is, from a persian writing. In the persian proverb, referring to someone as an ass or a donkey is not taken as a personal attack, even if i had used it straight for i qadeer, but infact means that the person does not have emotions as normal human beings.

This is different from urdu proverb, where ass or donkey is an insult straight away.

This proverb stays in arabic too, and note that the words swine and monkey were used for such people who leave the civilized ways to chose the habbits of the ancient. such association has been made in the koran too.

Lastly, even if someone claims that the word used for the holy man was offensive, note that it was hurled at an imaginary character, by a poet who authored the tale. and not by me to i qadeer.

And this is not a post to complain about your deicision. you will find me submissive to whatever decision you make. This was only to make it clear that my intention was not to post any offensive or unlawful material on gupshup. and i say that sincerely.

20

iqadeer - You are completely free to believe whatever you may please, the dialogue was not intended to change your belief. The point is that declaring music haram by a fatwa effects the masses collectively and at societal level. And anything impacts the whole society or masses of a group should be carefully examined before declared.

Secondly, there are always studies conducted in the West not based on the notion that something haram or not, the scientific research probe the questions even just merely to find the truth, whatever that may be.

Thirdly, so if the studies cannot be condcuted in Islamic counteries, would'nt it be a good idea to apply the approach? Instead of having bunch of ulmas sit down and decide upon something which is going to impact lifestyles of countless people living presently as well as future generations?

It was very nice to be part of this discussion. Keep up the good spirit.

:)

[This message has been edited by Roman (edited June 19, 1999).]