Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
I hope so bro.. .But Like I said, Pakistanis are a lazy bunch… Something really disgusting and evil will have to be done before anyone acts… Im not even sure if people disagree with these fanatics… Many people might not agree with tactics, but they will agree with the cause. That right there is enough for most people to sit around and do nothing.
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
Just exposes Musharaf for the fool that he had become... He obviously isnt a politician... But let alone a politician, he isnt even behaving like a General any more... I wonder if India were to invade, would he sit on his ass and say the same thing... Oh well they have guns and are willing to fight! God damn Musharaf.
I still admit there is no any leader in Pakistan other than Mush who has enough bALLS to completely crack down on these kind of timely social unrest fuelled by religious "enlightenment".
Look, I can relate the situation, very much, what happens in some parts of India.
We have Bahadur Junta who go frenzy within a week if media and certain opportunist leaders manage to conduct--successful psy-ops because they see an opportunity exists.
Desi media must learn slowly that these part of the world are still not like France where we can control a social unrest by issuing orders.
Most important, we are so sensitive when anything touches to "religion" or religiously "enlightened" lots.
Lunaticism is a curse of our time, but handful of people who mostly live in west and condemning Musharraf day and night, should know that you can't get rid of it from western perspective.
Solution should be home grown which suits the "aam Junta".
PS: Suggestin1: Although I hate 'ISI', but If I am incharge I will use rogue elements in intelligence agencies to get rid of loony lunatics--fatal accidents, bomb blasts can be used for eleminating evil as well :D
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
Dude.. This govt has failed... Its not living up to its basic requirments, and that protecting the lives and property of citizens...
No government-- not only in Pakistan but even in India as well can be termed as successful.
I have this opinion that "good governance" is something which will still take 50-75 years to become a reality in India or Pak, Nepal, Bang etc.
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
Mushy has indeed cow-towed to the cesspit of Islamist violence. I had just regard for him, now nothing. Some needs to take a stand against fanatics, be it the people is not our coward govt.
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
I still admit there is no any leader in Pakistan other than Mush who has enough bALLS to completely crack down on these kind of timely social unrest fuelled by religious "enlightenment".
Look, I can relate the situation, very much, what happens in some parts of India.
We have Bahadur Junta who go frenzy within a week if media and certain opportunist leaders manage to conduct--successful psy-ops because they see an opportunity exists.
Desi media must learn slowly that these part of the world are still not like France where we can control a social unrest by issuing orders.
Most important, we are so sensitive when anything touches to "religion" or religiously "enlightened" lots.
Lunaticism is a curse of our time, but handful of people who mostly live in west and condemning Musharraf day and night, should know that you can't get rid of it from western perspective. Solution should be home grown which suits the "aam Junta".
PS: Suggestin1: Although I hate 'ISI', but If I am incharge I will use rogue elements in intelligence agencies to get rid of loony lunatics--fatal accidents, bomb blasts can be used for eleminating evil as well :D
you got it!!!
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
I am extremely dissapointed that people over here are supporting force against their own people. We can take out those terrorists by arrest, sooner or later that will happen as it occured before. How come we are supporting attacks on our own people? Is this the way we are proving ourselves as better? We should be the one respecting human lives rather encourage indiscriminate killings.
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
This article is a good analysis;
http://dawn.com/2007/05/23/fea.htm#2
civil society’s baffling quiet
By Muhammad Ali Siddiqi
THERE is one baffling and disappointing aspect of the Lal Masjid affair — civil society is quiet, notwithstanding some murmur here and there. Preoccupied with the CJ affair and the Karachi killings, the academia, lawyers, intellectuals, teachers’ unions, NGOs and the HR bodies seem indifferent to the long-term consequences of whatever is going on inside the mosque and its environs.
The Lal Masjid clerics are obviously an unbalanced lot who seem to confirm V.S. Naipaul’s theory that converts — especially Iranians, South Asians and the Malay stock — suffer from neurosis. To them, says Naipaul, nothing is sacred “except the sands of Arabia”. As we can clearly see, to the Lal Masjid warriors, even the mosque is not sacred because it stands on a non-Arabian soil. The threat to carry out suicide attacks in which innocent human beings will be atomised seems to certify the correctness of Naipaul’s theory that to converts nothing is sacred.
If not to China’s Falun Gong gang, then Lal Masjid brothers can be safely likened to David Koresh, the crackpot ‘saviour’ who shut himself up in his compound in Waco, Texas. After a 51-day stand-off, Attorney General Janet Reno ordered a crackdown, tanks opened holes in the walls, helicopters opened up with machine guns and the compound was burnt down, with flames shooting 75 feet into the sky. There were nearly 80 dead, including Koresh, his followers, in trance or under his spell, 22 children and two pregnant women.
Renot’s excessive use of force was criticised, but by and large the entire American nation heaved a sigh of relief because Koresh and his evil cult had no followers, and no one went about burning buses in L.A. and D.C. This is not the case here, for the Aziz-Rasheed brothers — and Zille Huma’s killer – are not without admirers, and even those who have reservations about the Lal Masjid duo’s modus opereandi are hoping for a crackdown so as to make propaganda capital out of it.
** The question, however, is: is this abnormal way of enforcing Sharia something that only the government should tackle? If the authorities fail to sweep off the lot, is the government alone the loser and not society itself? The problem with this kind of reasoning is that it can be misunderstood and interpreted as an attempt to justify governmental inaction.**
** The law enforcement agencies’ options are limited. They cannot open up with artillery or fire teargas shells, for this exactly is what the Lal Masjid, the Taliban and their supporters are hoping and praying for.** **The mosque can be stormed, with some casualties on both sides, but the ultimate triumph will be that of the Taliban supporters, to whom a crackdown on the sacred precincts of the mosque will give a resounding propaganda victory — proof that it is only the Taliban and their types who can protect mosques. In such a scenario, the stand-off at Lal Masjid may come to an end, but the crackdown will translate itself into more power and more votes for the “neurotic” religious right. Worse still, such a crackdown could create fissures in the establishment and in the army, both of which are not without Taliban sympathisers, with consequences that are too frightful to visualise.
A crackdown on the Lal Masjid cultists will be possible only if there is a national consensus behind it. However, given the fractious nature of our politics, with political differences turning into animosities, such a consensus is out of the question. There is no doubt many NGOs, including women’s rights groups, have demonstrated against the Lal Masjid-Hafsa politburo, and it goes without saying that Aziz-Rasheed brothers’ criminal acts — abductions, attacks on shops and threats of suicide bombings — have not exactly been commended by many religious groups and parties. The MMA’s component parties belong to Deobandi, Barelvi, Ahl-i-Hadees and Jafria schools, and none of them has approved the Lal Masjid gang’s actions. But the criticism lacks depth and sincerity, for one obvious reason: all opposition parties are thoroughly enjoying the government’s predicament.**
*** The government’s dilemma is: if it does not act, it stands accused of failing to enforce its writ even in the federal capital; if it comes down hard on the two brother maulanas and their acolytes, the repercussions will shake the government, as if it is not already shaking. More important, the media, which today is chiding the government for failing to enforce its writ, will be the first to condemn the crackdown. (Just visualise TV images showing cops running berserk in the mosque and chasing and beating up nice “Islamic” boys). That is how the media the world over is.***
** What the political parties and civil society in general fail to realise is that if the Lal Masjid clerics succeed in appearing as victims of a governmental crackdown the problem will not go away, because it is the next government — and civil society — which will be faced with a similar, and perhaps greater and wide-ranging fitna.**
** The entire strategy of the two brothers is focussed on one point — dare the government into rash action. The more they provoke the authorities, the more diffident the government becomes the more disappointed the Lal Masjid brigade feels. What they want is a military crackdown. There is no doubt they will lose the first round, and the authorities will evict the brainwashed lot from the mosque, but in the long run it is they and not the government or civil society that will be victorious.**
** If there is to be a crackdown it must have the nation’s support. This can be obtained through parliament, provided the government and the opposition adopt a united stance. However, in the present circumstances neither the government nor the opposition nor society’s liberal sections — angry with the government over the CJ affair and the May 12 killings — would be willing to unite to crush a menace that one day could engulf the entire country.**
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
MWAP its politics baby, the same ppl who were so against attacks in FATA by the govt are now whining that govt is not doing anything about Lal masjid.
my position has been consistent..smoke em out, limit casualties by giving then an ultimatum and use force in a controlled disciplined manner.
I am not suggesting death, although i have written things liek napalm the place..out of frustration. But they should give these ppl all opportunities to surrender.
would u be okay with govt stopping power and water and supplies to the place. people are free to atarve or to leave the premises and go home or just somewhere else. the identifications are checked and those who are wanted are arrested. others are allowed to go home..but after you have created a list of all ppl because some of these ppl may be of interest later. also the list would need to be cross referenced with any intelligence lists on wanted militants, and if there is a match ppl arrested.
Now, at that point, anyone who chooses to remain at that facility is taking personal responsibility of whatever comes their way.
right?
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
My God, someone actually quoted V S Naipaul -- do we actually know who we're talking about? The guy's known for his anti-Pakistan bias. Pakistanis will do anything to settle their little matches with the establishment.
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
People like LM crew make you dislike Islam.
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
Pakistanis do not support them. Problem is when MQM protested against these same people with 100,000 mass, how many people applaud that action? Most of them came after MQM. This just shows that we as a country are still struggling to have a consensus on what direction should the country go. We do not have a same platform and defination in denouncing extreminism. Good news is that with the actions taking by these terrorists, the support to root them out is building. This is not Mushrraf's problem. Jamia Hafsa was formed in '92 and went through Nawaz and BB administration. They are the one who messed this up for us.
Right now, they are giving threats and want confortation. If taking them result in more mayhem than it is not good for our country. I am telling you, just like the protest in Karachi, more and more Pakistanis will come out and denouce this Lal Masjid. Than government is in right position to act. I am more in favor of Pakistanis taking action. Moreover, where are those "justice loving" politicians who are crying foul against President on CJ case?
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
Moreover, where are those "justice loving" politicians who are crying foul against President on CJ case?
they are just sitting there waiting to blast any action or inaction by the govt :)
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
From the article it appears we are stuck between a rock and a hard place..
But some good news finally ..
The man hugging murtad that got the mullahs foaming at the mouth like the dogs they are, is here to stay!
Shaukat Aziz did not accpet her resignation.. Take that Lal Masjid!
Pakistan fatwa minister to stay
Nilofar Bakhtiar was pictured after a paragliding flight
Pakistani Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz has rejected an offer to resign by the tourism minister, who has been under strong pressure from hard-line clerics.
Mr Aziz said that the minister, Nilofar Bakhtiar, was needed in the cabinet and she should carry on with her duties.
Last month, a fatwa was issued against her after she was pictured hugging a man following a paragliding flight.
Clerics said Ms Bakhtiar’s behaviour was obscene. She said the photo was misleading and she had done no wrong.
Morality ‘violation’
Prior to her submitting her resignation as minister, Ms Bakhtiar had lost her job as president of the women’s wing of the ruling Pakistan Muslim League party.
Unfortunately some irresponsible elements in Pakistan presented this noble cause in a malicious manner
Tourism Minister Nilofar Bakhtiar
Does fatwa promote bigotry?
This was followed by a change in her portfolio to tourism from women’s affairs.
The party said on Wednesday that her removal from the women’s wing post was not connected with the hugging incident and it welcomed the prime minister’s rejection of her resignation.
The BBC’s Syed Shoaib Hasan in Islamabad says the affair reinforces the perception that Pakistan is increasingly coming under the shadow of Islamic fundamentalism - and reflects differing attitudes within the ruling party towards religious hard-liners.
The row began after the tourism minister made the jump in France in March to raise money for victims of the 2005 Kashmir earthquake.
Newspaper photographs showed her hugging her elderly instructor after the jump.
The hug that caused all the fuss
Hard-line clerics at the radical Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) in Islamabad issued a fatwa, or religious edict, condemning her behaviour, saying it violated Islamic morality.
At the time Ms Bakhtiar vowed not to be intimidated, but officials on Tuesday confirmed reports that she had handed in her resignation.
She was quoted as saying she had been hurt by the way the issue was sensationalised and that her parachute jump had been for a noble cause.
“We don’t need to be intimidated by these people,” she told Reuters Television in April. “I have no regrets… I would do it again happily if it helps the people of Pakistan.”
Observers say the affair highlights a growing climate of extremism in Pakistan.
In February a female provincial minister was shot dead by a man who, police said, did not think women should be in politics.
The clerics who denounced the tourism minister have set up their own vigilante anti-vice squads in the capital.
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
Had she resigned I would have felt all civility in Pakistan had gone. Islamists make my blood boil.
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
PP1,
Shaukat Aziz not accepting resignation is mere drama to placate world media. Nilofer said yesterday that she was in tears because not one of her colleagues would publicly support her. If Musharraf and Aziz are for roshan khiyali, then why don't they come out publicly and say that she should not resign?
Face it man, this government is part of the extremist circles. They just do things barely to cover PR purposes. When it comes to action, its all hot air.
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
How many Pakistanis support these brothers? What's the feeling, would passive support for these talibanflavors turn to active violence if things got nasty?
The incident has gained international attention so pressure is on, 'wag the dog' or not.
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
PP1,
Shaukat Aziz not accepting resignation is mere drama to placate world media. Nilofer said yesterday that she was in tears because not one of her colleagues would publicly support her. If Musharraf and Aziz are for roshan khiyali, then why don't they come out publicly and say that she should not resign?
how more public can the support be if the PM refuses to accept her resignation because of the pressure sheis under by the extremist psychos.
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
How many Pakistanis support these brothers? What's the feeling, would passive support for these talibanflavors turn to active violence if things got nasty?
The incident has gained international attention so pressure is on, 'wag the dog' or not.
utd, there are probably some die hard supporters, then thre are manu supporters who just talk, and anyone who messes with govt is their new hero, and then there are those who support them but would not if they had to live under such a system, so they know they can talk crap but its not going to do much.
I would say majority of Pakistanis do not support these clowns. and those that do absed on the breakdown I showed, only some are troubling, rest are just full of yip yap.
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
WE are heading for a 2nd civil war.
Re: Mushy is a coward. Pakistan falls at altar of radicalism.
I still admit there is no any leader in Pakistan other than Mush who has enough bALLS to completely crack down on these kind of timely social unrest fuelled by religious "enlightenment".
Look, I can relate the situation, very much, what happens in some parts of India.
We have Bahadur Junta who go frenzy within a week if media and certain opportunist leaders manage to conduct--successful psy-ops because they see an opportunity exists.
Desi media must learn slowly that these part of the world are still not like France where we can control a social unrest by issuing orders.
Most important, we are so sensitive when anything touches to "religion" or religiously "enlightened" lots.
Lunaticism is a curse of our time, but handful of people who mostly live in west and condemning Musharraf day and night, should know that you can't get rid of it from western perspective. Solution should be home grown which suits the "aam Junta".
PS: Suggestin1: Although I hate 'ISI', but If I am incharge I will use rogue elements in intelligence agencies to get rid of loony lunatics--fatal accidents, bomb blasts can be used for eleminating evil as well :D
Maybe Musharaf has the capability to take care of this problem, what he seems to lack is the capacity. Still, he needs to choose his words carefuly, which he doesnt do very well, particularly when he gets cornered or frustrated.
The ISI will have to hit this from many angles not just one...
Hit the training camps, take out their leader, tap phone lines of suspected terrorists, take care off Mullahs who espouse any antistate policies, attack their financial base, make allies and try to drive a wedge between groups, and at the same time invest huge amounts social development and etc.
Also need to take care of the Afghan situation, but thats up to the Americans.
Its requires a lot of resolve and sincerity, which I doubt the govt has... The relgious fundos have been used in Pak for the govt own motives and there are probably many sympathizers within the govt and Army.. So its a difficult situation...