Re: Mushrraf’s approval ratings is at 18%
Re: Mushrraf's approval ratings is at 18%
Why would I be worried? I am not President. :) [/qoute] Then why 20 paragraphs for clarifications?
[quote] Anyhow, can’t you see that most of the post I leave out. My reason to support Musharraf is that, I believe he is keeping corruption in check and result is that Pakistan economy is booming.
Please keep two issues separately, "check on corruption" and "economy boom". They do have some correlation but not entirely. Have you forgotten about Rs 54 billion write-offs for the (ex)cabinet? NRO? May 12?
Re: Mushrraf's approval ratings is at 18%
[quote="Sa1eem"]
Why would I be worried? I am not President. :)
Then why 20 paragraphs for clarifications?
Please keep two issues separately, "check on corruption" and "economy boom". They do have some correlation but not entirely. Have you forgotten about Rs 54 billion write-offs for the (ex)cabinet? NRO? May 12?
[/quote]
'Check on corruption' and 'economic boom' may have no relation to you, but to me they are not only just related, but very much related, especially for third world and particularly for Pakistan (I am not going into details why corruption and economic boom is related, especially for third world countries and particularly for Pakistan, but there is very valid reason for what I believe).
Once I told someone who do matters (backing what I told him with reasons), that not to worry about import, export, debts, or dollars, you just take out corruption or reduce that from Pakistan economy, and economic boom would follow. I think that my reasons were logical enough for him to accept my argument.
Re: Mushrraf's approval ratings is at 18%
pakistanis using political polling is like the proverbial bunder playing with nariyal. most pakistanis love to do khayali pulao pakana and any truth that gets in the way of preconcieved belief is simply ignored. for example, when i.r.i polls were favourable to musharraf, media simply ignored the polls. now however when polls are against musharraf, media gives disproportionate importance to these polls. and once our idiotic media develops a rudimentery understanding of how the polling process works, you will see all sorts of rigged polls which just reinforces a particular viewpoint. polling process in pak will always be controversial because people simply refuse to accept the truth if the truth is contrary to their viewpoint such as muslims cannot do terrorism because islam is a religion of peace.
as far as polling in the west goes, here is how the process works:
sample being polled closely mimics the trait of the larger population. for example, when conducting a national poll to gauge popularity of u.s. presidential candidates, people who will be called will be divided along income, race, male/female, regional lines etc in a manner that resembles national population. this process cannot be replicated in pak because a huge percentage of pak is poor and poor people have limited access to phones especially those living in rural areas. moreover, we dont have any evidence to see that even when urban areas are polled, any attempt is made to get a representative sample. i would say given the lack of documentation, even urban polls will be nothing more than wild guesses.
polls are approximation and therefore the results have margin of error built in them. better the poll, smaller the margin of error which among other things depends on size of sample. all polls conducted by reputable organisation in the west also report margin of error which gives a range which is how polls should be read. no poll i have ever seen from pak has ever included a margin of error without which polling is meaningless.
also for the sake of argument, lets assume that poll numbers are accurate. should musharraf be concerned then? no, because poll ratings tend to fluctuate. just because musharraf is unpopular now does not mean that he will be unpopular forever. just as his rating went down to 18% from 60%, it can go back to 60% from 18%. fall in popularity rating is not a reason to resign. also i would guess musharraf's ratings took hit because of cable tv which is only available in urban areas. i dont think there would have been much change in musharraf's popularity in rural areas.
another indication of unreliability of pakistani polls is that unlike in the west, different set of polls report widely different numbers which differ beyond the margin of error. for example there was one poll that gave ns around 50% favourable rating and bb around 30%. another poll during that period showed bb with around 30% and ns with 20% favourable rating. unless pakistanis are nuts, its not possible for results to fluctuate to this extent.
ultimately, what matters in pak is what goes on in the street and surveying the current scene, musharraf should be feeling pretty good right now.
Re: Mushrraf's approval ratings is at 18%
'Check on corruption' and 'economic boom' may have no relation to you, but to me they are not only just related, but very much related, especially for third world and particularly for Pakistan (I am not going into details why corruption and economic boom is related, especially for third world countries and particularly for Pakistan, but there is very valid reason for what I believe).
Do you think corruption is not there at all now? Corruption may not be as bad as in days of Mr 10%. All the corrupt elements that were there in past, which one has been eliminated? or which one has been introduced to counter those elements?
[quote]
Once I told someone who do matters (backing what I told him with reasons), that not to worry about import, export, debts, or dollars, you just take out corruption or reduce that from Pakistan economy, and economic boom would follow. I think that my reasons were logical enough for him to accept my argument.
[/quote]
There are many recipes for economic boom, one of them is: Provide political stability, provide incentives to investors/land/tax-break, make financial reforms (banking/loaning).... with resources that Pakistan has boom is easy.
Re: Mushrraf's approval ratings is at 18%
Do you think corruption is not there at all now? Corruption may not be as bad as in days of Mr 10%. All the corrupt elements that were there in past, which one has been eliminated? or which one has been introduced to counter those elements?
Brother, think. Did I write anywhere that there is no corruption in Pakistan? Anyhow, corruption is much less than before (pre-1999 period) and that is one of the main reason for whatever little economical boom we have seen in Pakistan. True that many of past corrupt elements are also there but they do not hold that much power to do corruption. Most of the power is in the hand of President and after him, as far as government power is concerned, most is in the hand of Prime Minister. Both are not corrupt. As for other, who are ministers or MNAs, they are doing little bit of corruption, but even they are monitored and cannot do excessive corruption.
Nevertheless, if there was zero corruption in Pakistan, economical boom would have been much more, as I believe Pakistan (as most third world countries) has potential to grow at the rate above 10 percent a year for foreseeable future.
There are many recipes for economic boom, one of them is: Provide political stability, provide incentives to investors/land/tax-break, make financial reforms (banking/loaning).... with resources that Pakistan has boom is easy.
Most you mentioned does not apply to third world countries, though some of them do apply to developed countries or highly developed countries. For instance:
Political stability: There was political stability in India more than Pakistan since 1947 (when there was Congress domination in all political field until Indira emergency and then challenge from BJP), but Pakistan was developing and progressing faster than India until Bhutto took over in 1971, but even then under Bhutto rule, Pakistan was developing reasonably well compared to India, until corrupt duo (NS and BB) took over.
Indian started developing fast when BJP ousted Congress from power. BJP in power did bring some political instability in India still achieved good economic growth, and the reason is their change to better policies, good committed governance coupled with more honesty and less corruption than Congress. Even today, India with more stable political system, per head (current dollars) is poorer than Pakistan, though in 1947 they were much richer than Pakistan.
So, political stability is not such a big criterion for development (even though it does contribute if other factors are favourable).
Provide incentives to investors/land/tax-break: That helps, but again if there is corruption, all these incentives could not help, as these incentive would become another way of making money for corrupts (if Prime Minster is corrupt than one can be sure that those incentive would go to people close to Prime Minister, resulting in blow to economy). Result would be that, with all the incentives, no one would invest in such corrupt countries.
Make financial reforms (banking/loaning): Financial reform helps, but again, if government is in the hand of corrupts, nothing would work, as corrupts would use these loan incentives to take loans drying all available loans, and get it forgiven (as they have done in Pakistan). Result would be banks and financial corporations going bust (Banker's equity in Pakistan is one example, other is NDFC. At one time NIT was also going bankrupt)
[Actually, the summary is that in corrupt countries, there would be no money to give incentives to anyone, and whatever incentive would come to the country as 'aid from foreign countries', would get looted and plundered by crooks in power]
.... with resources that Pakistan has boom is easy: What resources Pakistan have? Let us know if you know some secret natural resources :D
If you mean natural resources, than if you would take all known natural resources of Pakistan on one side and population on another, resources in Pakistan is pathetic. Per head known resource of Pakistan is lower than most third world countries. Most African countries have more per head resources than Pakistan (except few). All South American countries and most Southeast Asian countries have more resources than Pakistan. Even India has more resources per head than Pakistan. [Those who say that Pakistan has lot of resources, they think that all resources are for them and those 165 million people of Pakistan are dead meat].
The only resource that Pakistan really has is some brilliant and committed people who want to serve the country against all odds, and some hard working labour force. On top of that, there are around 7 million Pakistani workers abroad earning dollars, and many of them send some of their earned dollars back to Pakistan.
Else, Pakistan is full emotionally charged but mentally empty population who are also ethnic and religious biased, corrupt feudal, corrupt educated class who are mostly ignorant, corrupt bureaucracy, malnourished labour (most one can see wasting time, even at work) and retarded Mullahs.
Re: Mushrraf’s approval ratings is at 18%
Please enlighten me how they are monitored, thank you.
ahaan, so you agree there is corruption in the government 
Read my post, I said condition of Pakistan was fertile, we have businessmen, we have industries, we have engineers etc… that was not the situation for both India and Pakistan in 1947.
This is tied exactly how “corruption” is tied with growth.
Rest of your post is “behes baraaye behes”… “if this if that”.
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Re: Mushrraf's approval ratings is at 18%
Else, **Pakistan is full emotionally charged but mentally empty population **who are also ethnic and religious biased, corrupt feudal, corrupt educated class who are mostly ignorant, corrupt bureaucracy, malnourished labour (most one can see wasting time, even at work) and retarded Mullahs.
Nice to know how you think of your countrymen... BTW you are right to some extent, I have come across some such people on this very forum including you :p ...
Re: Mushrraf's approval ratings is at 18%
no discussion is complete without personal attacks eh?
Re: Mushrraf’s approval ratings is at 18%
Ok chalo have it your way. Today is Nov. 21 and this is from today.
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\11\21\story_21-11-2007_pg7_23
Musharraf’s popularity nosedives following media blackout
By Fasih Ahmed
LAHORE: Political pundit and talk show host Dr Shahid Masood appeared live from Dubai on Geo News last Saturday. This was no ordinary broadcast. Geo, which had been beaming worldwide from the Arab emirate since its inception in 2002, had been verbally informed that it was being shut down. “We are proud of this moment,” said Masood, visibly shaken as a clock counted down the minutes to the threatened shutdown. He blamed the Musharraf government for pressuring the “government of the friendly country that is hosting us” into evicting the news channel. “We are proud of this moment,” he said, voice cracking. “We did not buckle, we are going out fighting.” Then at 1am, Geo News went black.
Part of one of Pakistan’s oldest media empires, Geo TV Network was one of the most popular private news channels forced off cable on November 3, when President General Pervez Musharraf declared a state of emergency, sacked the judiciary and suspended the constitution. In his midnight address to the nation, Musharraf blamed the judiciary, growing militancy and the media for his action. “The media could not lend a helping hand to improve the situation but added insult to injury instead,” said Musharraf. “This is the same media to which I had given full freedom. I have said on various occasions that the media should not be negative, but on some channels the situation was not a bit better.”
While a number of private news channels were slowly allowed back on-air – including a channel owned by one of Musharraf’s new ministers and another owned by his son’s father-in-law – after agreeing to abide by the government’s stiff new regulations, Geo News and another private news channel ARY One World could only be seen via satellite, at least until last Saturday. Dubai Media City, a free media zone, reportedly shut them down for “interfering in the politics of another country.” Official sources told Newsweek that Musharraf had “personally requested” Dubai’s ruler “some weeks ago to keep these channels on a short leash”.
Pakistan’s nascent media is no stranger to such dogged treatment. Today in Karachi, some 150 journalists were arrested from a peaceful protest against the government’s attempts to tame the media. Press seizures and withholding of state advertising in independent newspapers have also been reported recently. Last March, Geo’s Islamabad office was ransacked by police within an hour of the channel having broadcast pictures of police and protesting lawyers clashing outside the Supreme Court. And last May, the office of Aaj TV in Karachi was targeted by plainclothes gunmen.
“Who are they to speak of a ‘Code of Conduct’ for the media?” said Najam Sethi, founding editor of The Friday Times at a hundreds-strong protest rally today in Lahore. “We have seen their ‘Code of Conduct.’ They say they’ll respect judgements of the Supreme Court and then they go and sack all the judges?” he said. Sethi was arrested on charges of sedition in 1999 by the then government of prime minister Nawaz Sharif. Back then it was Musharraf who pressed Sharif to release him. Like Sethi, others too are surprised and outraged by Musharraf’s seeming change of heart.
Khawar Naeem Hashmi, 53, spent five years in prison under the last military ruler General Zia-ul-Haq in the 1980s and was blacklisted by Prime Minister Sharif in the 1990s. “When Musharraf came to power, there was no free press, no independent media,” said Hashmi, now Bureau Chief at Geo’s Lahore office. “In the last few weeks he has undone one of the greatest successes attributed to him,” he told Newsweek. “Musharraf will have to restore media freedom in days, not weeks,” he said.
New regulations introduced by the Musharraf government disallow private news channels and newspapers, from “ridiculing” the “head of state, members of the armed force, or executive, legislative or judicial organs of the state,” failing which individuals representing the channels or newspapers could face up to three years in prison and Rs 10 million in fines. The government has also demanded the sacking of “hostile” journalists as a pre-requisite for allowing Geo and ARY One World back on air.
“We are still refusing their demand to fire key anchors and journalists,” said Mir Ibrahim Rahman, Geo’s CEO from Karachi. “Their message to the independent judiciary was loud and clear, now it’s our turn.” Rahman says his company is losing $500,000 each day and was not allowed to air the India-Pakistan cricket series for which it paid $15 million in broadcasting rights. “They’ve closed all our channels worldwide including our music, entertainment and sports channels which have nothing to do with news.”
Geo remains defiant and says it has no plans to concede to government demands. Its satellite frequency is running a loop of its logo adrift on stormy seas. Geo’s fighting spirit was on display outside the channel’s Davis Road office here on Saturday evening. Surrounded by dozens of supporters shouting anti-Musharraf slogans and singing along to Geo’s thumping post-emergency anthem, the channel’s staff solemnly stood behind their office desks that had been pulled out onto the roadside and lay covered with candles and flowers from political parties, civil rights groups and ordinary citizens. Passers-by flashed victory signs in solidarity.
Disappointment in the government’s actions against the free press is not limited to Pakistan alone. US Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte in Islamabad last week called on the Musharraf government to lift the embargo on independent media. “The recent police actions against protestors, suppression of the media, and the arrests of political and human rights leaders run directly counter to the reforms that have been undertaken in recent years,” he said. “Free, fair, and credible elections… require the active participation of political parties, civil society, and the media.”
While Geo is continuing to stream audio and video on the Internet, most Pakistanis do not have access to credible, independent local news channels. Those restored on-air following their acquiescence of the stringent new ‘Code of Conduct’ have replaced the anchors and commentators the government was keen to rid of. Viewers may feel little distinction now between state-owned PTV and these privately-owned news channels.
Geo, which staffs some 200 in Dubai alone, is planning to resume transmissions from Singapore, Hong Kong, Thailand or Afghanistan. In an email to Geo staffers, CEO Rahman admitted the difficulties being faced by the corporation. “There are other more serious threats which I cannot mention at this stage,” he said. “We do not give in to threats and intimidation,” he continued, exhorting colleagues to hold their heads high. “We’ve been fighting for tolerance without fear or favour, and the president was once all about tolerance,” he said. “More than anything else, I can’t believe the person Musharraf has become.” This is something many Pakistanis who once supported the president are beginning to wonder themselves.
Re: Mushrraf’s approval ratings is at 18%
No argument with govts incorrect approach with media recenlt, however reading the above statment the following thought came to mind.
although..and equivalent statement would be that CBS, NBC etc dont have to follow FCC regulations because white house sacked some us attorneys?
Re: Mushrraf's approval ratings is at 18%
“We are still refusing their demand to fire key anchors and journalists,” said Mir Ibrahim Rahman, Geo’s CEO from Karachi.
...... Rahman says his company is losing $500,000 each day ......
There is nothing called "absolutely free" media. TVs and newspapers are large corporations employing 100s if not 1000s of people.
And business is business. You never bite the hand that feeds you!
Is it too hard to understand?
Pakistan gives $millions to CEO and his company. In return they ought to show some restraint.
Unfortunately we have too many "revolutionaries" filled up in our intellectual class. May be that's the reason why we go from one instability to the next, from one crisis to the next.
And people keep on wondering why the heck this "Huge country" with 160 million people can't get its act together.
Here is the reason people! We have too many anarchists and revolutionaries and too few statesmen. The statesmen who are willing to compromise in the name of national stability and prosperity.
Peace.
Re: Mushrraf's approval ratings is at 18%
We have too many anarchists and revolutionaries and too few statesmen.
Peace.
I'm waiting for the day when you will post something w/o the words anarchists and revolutionaries.
BTW, if you were around when Jinnah was calling for "direct action" you would have called him anarchist, too. Among other famous anarchists/revolutionaries were Gandhi, MLK and Nelson Mandela.
Re: Mushrraf's approval ratings is at 18%
There is nothing called "absolutely free" media. TVs and newspapers are large corporations employing 100s if not 1000s of people.
And business is business. You never bite the hand that feeds you!
Is it too hard to understand?
Alas if Musharraf understood this. Thats exactly what he is doing, gagging the media, killing the judiciary, oppressing the public opinion and going to al sorts of gibberish with sole intent of prolonging his rule.
Re: Mushrraf’s approval ratings is at 18%
Yes I can see that here.
Re: Mushrraf's approval ratings is at 18%
I'm waiting for the day when you will post something w/o the words anarchists and revolutionaries. BTW, if you were around when Jinnah was calling for "direct action" you would have called him anarchist, too. Among other famous anarchists/revolutionaries were Gandhi, MLK and Nelson Mandela.
They didn't do anything against Musharraf so they can't be anarchists.
Re: Mushrraf's approval ratings is at 18%
I'm waiting for the day when you will post something w/o the words anarchists and revolutionaries..
Just calling spade! well! A spade.
......BTW, if you were around when Jinnah was calling for "direct action" you would have called him anarchist, too.
Among other famous anarchists/revolutionaries were Gandhi, MLK and Nelson Mandela.
Hmmm! I am glad you brought Jinnah as an example. In his political career of some 50 odd years, he never espoused revolution, or did anything against the law! Not even against the British law.
Jinnah's whole political struggle was always within the bounds of sober and calculated moves.
And yes! Hindus do accuse him of "direction action". Here is a quick factoid about your favorite attack on Jinnah.
- Direct Action was called throughout British India
- Only one city in the "w h o l e" B-India saw Muslim League goons kill non-Muslims and that was Kol-Katta (Calcutta).
- ML wasn't even strong in that city.
If Jinnah wanted anarchy, he had plenty of people in large Muslim dominated cities to burn and loot Hindus But he didn't!
And your Congress i.e. Aman ki Pujari murdered 10s of thousands of Muslims in UP (Garh Makteswar) and Bihar. And Congress's / Hindus murderous campaigns happened before and after Jinnah's direction action.
So yes when Hindus and Congre$hites look for excuses they do point out direction action day that is like comparing paisas of ML with lakhs of murders at the hands of Congress.
I wish Pakistani politikos follow Jinnah style struggle, and no one will accuse them of spreading anarchy.
Peace.
p.s. I'll let Congressites comment on Gandhi's role.
p.p.s. I have to study Mandella before making an opinion on his political tactics.
p.p.s. A good example of peaceful struggle is M. L. King.
Re: Mushrraf’s approval ratings is at 18%
I found him here 
j/k
Re: Mushrraf's approval ratings is at 18%
no discussion is complete without personal attacks eh?
national attacks is okay with you?
Re: Mushrraf's approval ratings is at 18%
national attacks is okay with you?
You think that to say ‘Pakistan is full of emotionally charged but mentally empty population’ is national attack? If you think that way than it is not your fault. You are also from Pakistan and seem to make conclusions without thinking, as many do in Pakistan :)
Yar, aap bhie thora kam samjhtay hou (I am saying that in friendly way, bura na manna) :). What I wrote, it only means that there are many people in Pakistan (‘Pakistan is full of these people’) who react because of their emotions without thinking (‘they are emotionally charged but mentally empty’), in other words, many in Pakistan are emotionally charged and do not think while emotionally charged. If you think that it is national attack, than I am sorry, I now realised that I replied to a person with very different understanding of phrases.