Re: Musharraf’s farmhouse almost ready
^ Aalsi, you are forgetting great Shahbaz Sharif doesnt need third time bar.
Also, would Musharraf do any kheti-baari in this farmhouse Aalsi bhai?
Secondly when these "ex-leaders" were doing bad things, many in the "current-leadership" including bureaucrats and generals were their helpers. So the evidence of any wrong doings evaporates in the thin air.
And court system is utterly dependent on "paper trail" or evidence. In the absence of evidence, courts have to let them go. The usual result is that the top guys go home and the nation is left with so much bitterness.
Depends on how you look at it. Zardari can be brought to justice to show how he accumulated the wealth, Nawaz Sharif should've been made to pay off the loans he got forgiven (sell his properties to pay off the bad loans). It depends no how you pursue the case. If all you want is jail your opponent and use 100 200 year old justice system to show "paper proof" then yeah what you said would happen.
Thus it is not to let anyone go "scott free", but rather to reduce the bitterness and intolerance in the nation, the top leadership should be allowed to live off their last years in peace.
Looking at the results of the recent past "Nabbing" and prosecutions, it will be reasonable to say that we should not have made the case against Zardari, or Nawaz Sharif either.
All that corruption hoopla went to waste when the nation elected / selected them in an open election. So for ordinary people it didn't matter if AZ or NS did anything wrong. We the educated elite should learn from these "ordinary people" and quit arguing about innocence or corruption of the top leadership.
Until "bitterness" is addressed by the whole (governance) system Pakistan will continue its downward spiral. If we can't do that then there is no point in having justice system at all, this is where mafias/dakus/criminals take rise and provide this as their "justification".
Depends on how you look at it. Zardari can be brought to justice to show how he accumulated the wealth, Nawaz Sharif should've been made to pay off the loans he got forgiven (sell his properties to pay off the bad loans).
Which loans are you talking about? Are you mixing Nawaz Sharif with Chaudhry Shujaat?
Which loans are you talking about? Are you mixing Nawaz Sharif with Chaudhry Shujaat?
Nope, Nawaz took loans and then defaulted and showed his factory (sugar?) as sick (non-productive), this is just one example. Choudhary is a different story.
Depends on how you look at it. Zardari can be brought to justice to show how he accumulated the wealth, Nawaz Sharif should've been made to pay off the loans he got forgiven ....
Look we are arguing for the sake of arguments.
Forget about punishing the top leadership like Zardari, Nawaz, Altaf, Chodhri etc. Try to prosecute their underlings.
Just tell me, can you go in Karachi to catch an ordinary Bhatta Khor from MQM? Heck no. Then how can you ever think of prosecuting the top dogs?
Same thing is true for Jiyalas. You can't even catch a low ranking jiyala and prosecute him in the courts. Then how can you bring Zardari to justice.
I am just saying we need to live in the real world and not some jannat where milk and honey flow in the big fat pipes, 72 hoors take care of every guy, ghilman keep all the ulema happy.
mushy retirement must be paying off for him after this "deal".
Hope all the crooks get prosecuted someday.
khatarra, come on, stop sensationalizing things. Musharraf wants to use his position as an ex-ally to the US to make some fast cash in these universities. Are you suggesting someone like Fazl Elahi or Ishaq Khan made billions of dollars?
Don't understand where the sensationalization accusation came from. We are saying the same thing, he is making some fast cash. The point is - if he had made billions like the leaders before him he would not need to get paid for lectures. Ch Fazl Elahi or Ishaq Khan did not have the power to make the billions whereas Ayub, Bhutto, Zia, BB & NS did and their descendents do not have to lift a finger to make ends meet. On a lighter note imagine NS delivering a lecture !!
Mushrraf made a deal with Zardari & that is why he is keeping his keeping house built on illegal land. And, as long as PPP & Zardar are around he will be fine (one crook supporting another), but if PMLN comes back & take power at federal level Mushrraf will run out on next flight out. :D
What, there is no honor among thieves then?
By delivering paid lectures after his retirement, he must be the only pakistani head of state (after Sikander Mirza) who would be working to earn money. That must say something about his integrity, as he could also have accummulated billions of dollars like NS & BB/AAZ and therefore not have to do anything for spare cash.
Incidently Sikander Mirza used to work in a hotel in London after his stint as president, imagine that in this day and age of mega corruption.
Quoted for truth, friendo.
Don't understand where the sensationalization accusation came from.
Its coming from the fact that he was the president of a country in the limelight of international/global terrorism, which is the only thing he would be required to talk about in his so called lectures. They aren't interested in his personal life, or his service in the army.
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We are saying the same thing, he is making some fast cash. The point is - if he had made billions like the leaders before him he would not need to get paid for lectures.
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Every greedy pig wants more money, and that's what hes going to do. Wait till the Govt that made deals with him, NRO, indemnification goes away and his chargesheet will be up. I wont be surprised if he joins the MQM to come back into politics.
Also, I hope you know Benazir gave many lectures at prestigious universities in the US, on third world economics, and she was paid a lot more than Mush can dream of. Most of these went into charity. This does not make her a saint, neither does this prove Mush was honest.
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Ch Fazl Elahi or Ishaq Khan did not have the power to make the billions
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So your statement was incorrect. P.s. Ishaq Khan had almost the same power as Mush, but the man despite being a knucklehead was honest unlike Mushy.
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whereas Ayub, Bhutto, Zia, BB & NS did and their descendents do not have to lift a finger to make ends meet.
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Most of the above were land lords or industrialists, and have plenty of other sources of income. An Army general buying property worth millions is another matter. Most of his ayaashi (mujraz, learjets, protocols, record tours etc) during his time in power was unprecedented. If he stole less than Zardari, he certainly blew more while in power, keeping in mind he was in power for 8 whole years.
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On a lighter note imagine NS delivering a lecture !!
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Its not like Musharraf with his PMA diploma and thick accent would make a steller lecturer. He's already made a fool out of himself in the western media by making absurd claims like Mukhtar Mai and other women get raped for foreign visas and his other mushisms.
Haahahahha too much man, too much. I can imagine him struggling, turning red, giving up and then continuing on in punjabi instead.
Look we are arguing for the sake of arguments.
Forget about punishing the top leadership like Zardari, Nawaz, Altaf, Chodhri etc. Try to prosecute their underlings.
Just tell me, can you go in Karachi to catch an ordinary Bhatta Khor from MQM? Heck no. Then how can you ever think of prosecuting the top dogs?
Same thing is true for Jiyalas. You can't even catch a low ranking jiyala and prosecute him in the courts. Then how can you bring Zardari to justice.
I am just saying we need to live in the real world and not some jannat where milk and honey flow in the big fat pipes, 72 hoors take care of every guy, ghilman keep all the ulema happy.
Since we can't prosecute jiyalas or bhatta khors then why have police/judiciary in first place? Just to punish non-political people?
All valid points :k:
Especially re the lectures which some naive and gullible people somehow believe absolves Mush from running one of the most, if not the most corrupt, govts in the history of Pakistan
Looks like someone is still jealous that the days of Unprecedented Economic Growth, as seen under the great leadership of former President, the Great Pervez Musharaf, greatest Pakistani leader since Quaid-e-Azam are gone for a long time.
Oh, god give it up. You sounds like broken record. FYI, when Quaid was around Pakistan was much worse off thn its now.
Since we can't prosecute jiyalas or bhatta khors then why have police/judiciary in first place? Just to punish non-political people?
Nopsee! Make sure you have adequate proof before you shout corruption. And if Zardari or NS were dragged through NAB and nothing came out of it, then we should forgive and forget.
Similarly if you want to prosecute an MQM bhatta khor, then you better not accuse him until there is clear evidence of wrong doing.
Childish, and unfounded allegations based on "sunni sunnai" (heresy) is not good for the society. It creates needless hatred and intolerance.
Its coming from the fact that he was the president of a country in the limelight of international/global terrorism, which is the only thing he would be required to talk about in his so called lectures. They aren't interested in his personal life, or his service in the army.
Every greedy pig wants more money, and that's what hes going to do. Wait till the Govt that made deals with him, NRO, indemnification goes away and his chargesheet will be up. I wont be surprised if he joins the MQM to come back into politics.
Also, I hope you know Benazir gave many lectures at prestigious universities in the US, on third world economics, and she was paid a lot more than Mush can dream of. Most of these went into charity. This does not make her a saint, neither does this prove Mush was honest.
So your statement was incorrect. P.s. Ishaq Khan had almost the same power as Mush, but the man despite being a knucklehead was honest unlike Mushy.
Most of the above were land lords or industrialists, and have plenty of other sources of income. An Army general buying property worth millions is another matter. Most of his ayaashi (mujraz, learjets, protocols, record tours etc) during his time in power was unprecedented. If he stole less than Zardari, he certainly blew more while in power, keeping in mind he was in power for 8 whole years.
Its not like Musharraf with his PMA diploma and thick accent would make a steller lecturer. He's already made a fool out of himself in the western media by making absurd claims like Mukhtar Mai and other women get raped for foreign visas and his other mushisms.
You need to look up "sensationalising" in the dictionary.
Obviously Mush is gonna deliver lectures on war on terror. It is the same as e.g. Imran Khan doing commentary or writing articles on cricket - a respectable way to make money by talking about what you are famous for. Point is he needs the money which implies he has not got a bottomless pit of money like BB who did not take the money but gave it to charity.
GIK was not powerful - the power was with the army chief and then with the PM. However after retirement, neither GIK or Ch Fazl Elahi did any job, so my earlier statement is still correct that Mush is the first ex-leader to earn a living after Sikander Mirza.
Only Bhutto was a mega rich landlord from the list. All others were just average Joes before becoming PM/President inc NS who was worth only a small fraction of what he ended up with after his "mulk bachao" campaigns!
We will see how his lectures go, at least he has offers on the table.
Nopsee! Make sure you have adequate proof before you shout corruption. And if Zardari or NS were dragged through NAB and nothing came out of it, then we should forgive and forget.
Similarly if you want to prosecute an MQM bhatta khor, then you better not accuse him until there is clear evidence of wrong doing.
Childish, and unfounded allegations based on "sunni sunnai" (heresy) is not good for the society. It creates needless hatred and intolerance.
What I said earlier were not "sunee sunai", Zardari has millions of $$ abroad, Nawaz Sharif has many loans "forgiven" these are not something "suni sunai" but something which can be actually recovered but then so far all govts have used these charges to their own political needs and not sincerely followedup.
You need to look up "sensationalising" in the dictionary.
Obviously Mush is gonna deliver lectures on war on terror. It is the same as e.g. Imran Khan doing commentary or writing articles on cricket - a respectable way to make money by talking about what you are famous for. Point is he needs the money which implies he has not got a bottomless pit of money like BB who did not take the money but gave it to charity.
Point is, everyone needs more money. I am sure hes amassed enough to live on without these 'lectures', with enough to pay for the lifetime of cigars and booze he enjoys. He already illegally acquired a huge farmhouse (along with a lifetime pension from the army/pres post with benefits). Anything else is bonus.
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- GIK was not powerful - the power was with the army chief and then with the PM. However after retirement, neither GIK or Ch Fazl Elahi did any job, so my earlier statement is still correct that Mush is the first ex-leader to earn a living after Sikander Mirza.
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Not powerful, oh maybe not, consider he sent the Govt packing 2 times. There are plenty of ex-leaders who earned a living. Mush is a bad example, he hasnt even delivered a lecture yet.
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- Only Bhutto was a mega rich landlord from the list. All others were just average Joes before becoming PM/President inc NS who was worth only a small fraction of what he ended up with after his "mulk bachao" campaigns!
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That mulq bacahyo campaign came in 1998 or 1999, which by the way was his last year in office. He was a bigshot much before that, so your facts are wrong again.
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- We will see how his lectures go, at least he has offers on the table. [/quote]
Yes, lets hope he doesnt make those thick headed statements like he used to. Do you remember the ones about indians and their english, keeping in mind his thick accent.
What I said earlier were not "sunee sunai", Zardari has millions of $$ abroad, Nawaz Sharif has many loans "forgiven" these are not something "suni sunai" but something which can be actually recovered but then so far all govts have used these charges to their own political needs and not sincerely followedup.
Buri baat zardari and nawaz shouldn't be victimized!
Why hasn't realdeal / spock gotten on your case by now? :p