Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
Im suggesting that if Pakistan wanted to take over Kargil peak, they should have used all means at their disposal, which includes air support...
Are you suggesting the Kargil peak was so important that we could afford an all out war with India at that time, specially when the war became more of a perception war than a real military war.....
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
LOL the Pak Army was so secret in its planning that it did not bother to take other cheifs into confidence on this misadventure.. so when Pak Army called the Air force ppl for supply missions the Air force personal said.. "we dont fly missions for jihadis" and for the grabbing part.. wat part of pakistan did India Grab to make pakistan beg for a ceasefire?
Airforce follows orders buddy... Its called chain of command..
The only fault was that they didnt call in full support, whihc would have been enough to hold the peak..
As for grabbing, I dont understand what you talking about... Indians have always been aggresive, constantly trying to undermine Pakistan... So I dont see anything wrong with returning the favor. Its a fact HOWEVER, that Pak did an excellent job in taking the peak right under the nose of the Indians. Tactically well done, but very bad follow up.
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
Are you suggesting the Kargil peak was so important that we could afford an all out war with India at that time, specially when the war became more of a perception war than a real military war.....
Its all speculation, but yes, taking Kargil would have been worth I think in the long term...
Are you suggesting that we cower bfore the Indians? They have spent fifty years trying undermine Pakistan and we have to accept their bullying?
They took Siachin, and we have had a low scale war for years, same thing with Kargil, but if Indians want to escalate the issue, then we shouldnt bow down.
And lets not forget that Indians have just as much to lose in the end with an all out war, particularly consdiering Nukes are involved.
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
Its all speculation, but yes, taking Kargil would have been worth I think in the long term... Are you suggesting that we cower bfore the Indians? They have spent fifty years trying undermine Pakistan and we have to accept their bullying? They took Siachin, and we have had a low scale war for years, same thing with Kargil, but if Indians want to escalate the issue, then we shouldnt bow down.
And lets not forget that Indians have just as much to lose in the end with an all out war, particularly consdiering Nukes are involved.
They always tried but were never successful until 10 years when their economy started to become strong. For 50 years they tried to undermine Pakistan and nobody took them seriously, and now when they try to undermine Pakistan the whole world listens.
It would not matter if we take some icy peak in the middle of nowhere. It's more important to have good relations with them, which is for our own benefit...
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
Its all speculation, but yes, taking Kargil would have been worth I think in the long term... Are you suggesting that we cower bfore the Indians? They have spent fifty years trying undermine Pakistan and we have to accept their bullying? They took Siachin, and we have had a low scale war for years, same thing with Kargil, but if Indians want to escalate the issue, then we shouldnt bow down.
And lets not forget that Indians have just as much to lose in the end with an all out war, particularly consdiering Nukes are involved.
Well AFAIK it was Gen Zia who did not intervene on Siachen saying that not even grass grows there so lets not get into a fight over that region..
All out war?? with an army not even ready for it.?? To be honest i know ppl from army who took a sigh of relief at the fact that indian army did not start an all out war.. just because our army's battle readiness was waaay out of line..
and besides why take Panga's when u know u will have to run to White house.
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
What a great military leader. The dumbass general had no exist strategy. Even his own army officers can attest to that and have done so in Musharraf's free Media.
says a 2 bit clerk. Jao, you will be called when a letter needs to be typed and paper needs to be pushed.
2 bit chutias saying a career general didnt have a exit strategy. hilarious....NOT.
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
India could have crossed the LOC and not only recapture remaining part of kashmir but also tiranga would have been on Islamabad. but war it triggered might have cost us about 10 years and for pakistan....they would have been in medieval period.
could have, would have, should have, yadi yada yada. the typical indian mantra, took them over a month to dislodge a few hundred men with all their military might and air power. consider Kargil as Pakistan's contribution towards you economy, making profit on coffins.
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
Well AFAIK it was Gen Zia who did not intervene on Siachen saying that not even grass grows there so lets not get into a fight over that region..
All out war?? with an army not even ready for it.?? To be honest i know ppl from army who took a sigh of relief at the fact that indian army did not start an all out war.. just because our army's battle readiness was waaay out of line.. and besides why take Panga's when u know u will have to run to White house.
Well, lets not make the same mistakes as Zia... Enough bowing to Indian pressure. Whether he likes it or not, we do have a fight there, and Indians have been brazen enough to take it and now even hold it as though its their right.
My belief is that if the Pak Army wasnt ready for the possibility of an all out war, then there was no point in Kargil.. If they truly wanted to take Kargil, they should have been ready for whatever the Indians have to throw at them.
But having blundered into the standoff, Pak should have kept the prssure on... You cant start a fight and then back off... So, since they had captured the peak, they should have stuck to it and made an effort to keeep it at all cost.
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
They always tried but were never successful until 10 years when their economy started to become strong. For 50 years they tried to undermine Pakistan and nobody took them seriously, and now when they try to undermine Pakistan the whole world listens.
It would not matter if we take some icy peak in the middle of nowhere. It's more important to have good relations with them, which is for our own benefit...
You cant clap with one hand my friend... If the Indians dont want relations to improve, which they have demonstrated consistantly over the past few years through this so called peace process, then why should we bend over backwards to try to befriend them?
And just a little 411, India has succesfuly undermined Pakistan for many years...
India refused Pakistan military equipment and financial entitlements at partition, undermined the Kashmir issue among other kingdoms etc...
Later they undermined relations between East and West Pakistn by prohibiting overland flights... And then the eventual break up of Pakistan...
The whole Siachin issue...
So India has been playing the adversary for many years, even prior to their decade of growth.
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
could have, would have, should have, yadi yada yada. the typical indian mantra, took them over a month to dislodge a few hundred men with all their military might and air power. consider Kargil as Pakistan's contribution towards you economy, making profit on coffins.
Not to mention the fact that India in every war except Bangladesh, struggled to gain ground against a country atleast 80-10 times smaller then it. The only other country it has ever fought a war against actually trounced it so bad that they still wonder what went wrong...
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
The only blunder as far as Kargil goes was that Pak Army didnt call in full air support... Humiliating the Indians by grabing it in the first place is worthless if its not held on to in the long term...
india could have also used the airforce but they never did as they didnt want to cross the border and it would have led to full fledged war.
The only solution to kashmir is you take what u have we take what we have. I bet no one will ever compromise more than that.
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
Err..no. if we don't show aggressiveness, you will donate territory to others and then will say when the kashmir issue is resolved the territory will be got back. Pakistan is the only country in this world which gives its territory to another country just because that country is capable of causing damage to india. If that is the attitude, what should india do??..
It is the very same country which supported khalistanis telling their religion is more closer to islam and armed them.
It is the very pakistan which carried infiltrations into kashmir and made india loose many people and also miilions of dollars in the process.
what should india do??..it has to show aggressiveness. good job that siachen is under indias control. (But don't want to spend any more money for siachen)
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
india could have also used the airforce but they never did as they didnt want to cross the border and it would have led to full fledged war.
The only solution to kashmir is you take what u have we take what we have. I bet no one will ever compromise more than that.
Well India did offer full support to their troops. Pakistan did not...
What Im saying is, if your going in too fight, then you better be ready to do whatever is neccesary to maintain the fight and win it... Which is not what the Pak Army did, and thus it was futile.
As for Kashmir, what you want is the status quo... If you think the staus quo is what we have fought over for fifty years, then you mistaken...
If thats all you have to offer, then obviously your intrest isnt in peace and we have nothing to talk about.
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
Err..no. if we don't show aggressiveness, you will donate territory to others and then will say when the kashmir issue is resolved the territory will be got back. Pakistan is the only country in this world which gives its territory to another country just because that country is capable of causing damage to india. If that is the attitude, what should india do??..
It is the very same country which supported khalistanis telling their religion is more closer to islam and armed them.
It is the very pakistan which carried infiltrations into kashmir and made india loose many people and also miilions of dollars in the process.
what should india do??..it has to show aggressiveness. good job that siachen is under indias control. (But don't want to spend any more money for siachen)
Im not going to debate history with you...
India started their race of brinkmenship, and we only followe din suit, and we have only done it to protect our national intrest. History of Pak Indian relations are filled with such aggresiveness by India...
Issues such as Siachin are an example of this and your statement, which vindicate everything I accuse India of proves this...
Kalistan! Again after Bangladesh, you should consder yourselves lucky thats all we did...
In the end, alls fair in love and war... Im personally dont buy Indian overtures for peace, when its back by stark refusal to understand and resolve the basic causes of all the probs.\
Again, alls fair in love and war.
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
Well India did offer full support to their troops. Pakistan did not... What Im saying is, if your going in too fight, then you better be ready to do whatever is neccesary to maintain the fight and win it... Which is not what the Pak Army did, and thus it was futile. As for Kashmir, what you want is the status quo... If you think the staus quo is what we have fought over for fifty years, then you mistaken... If thats all you have to offer, then obviously your intrest isnt in peace and we have nothing to talk about.
So if you think that india will give up kashmir than thats never going to happen. I bet we will never reach on any conculsion on this issue.
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
kar liya solve bhai logon nay kashmir and all other issues, ya history peet rahayho tum sab?
is tarah toh ho chuka na koi bhi issue solved?
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
Im not going to debate history with you... India started their race of brinkmenship, and we only followe din suit, and we have only done it to protect our national intrest. History of Pak Indian relations are filled with such aggresiveness by India...
Issues such as Siachin are an example of this and your statement, which vindicate everything I accuse India of proves this...
Kalistan! Again after Bangladesh, you should consder yourselves lucky thats all we did...
In the end, alls fair in love and war... Im personally dont buy Indian overtures for peace, when its back by stark refusal to understand and resolve the basic causes of all the probs.\
Again, alls fair in love and war.
if you justify khalistan with bangladesh, then some indians will justify it with partition. It will enter an infinite loop. and neither can india buy peace overtures of pakistan, considering its army and ISI in power over there.
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
^ Add balochistan / pashtunistan movements as well.
And Pakpatriot, I think it has more to do with the means than the will.. PAF was very willing to engage in 1965 but from what I hear from credible resources, we weren't that prepared in kargil. I believe half [or less?] of our mirage fleet was in france and F-7s [and Mirages] can't really engage BVR equipped MiG-29s or Mirages.
Mirages was the key for some IAF success over the mountains. I have also read of one incident where one of the MiG-29s locked on our F16s and our boys were out of range to get a lock on and also shake off the indian lock.
PS Indian mig21s and 27s didn't fare that great either as couple of them got shot down by manpads.
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
^even north east be added.
Re: Musharraf begged for Kargil ceasefire: Sharif
This is not new. Everybody knows how much scared mushi was when india declares she is running out of patience over kargil.
India could have crossed the LOC and not only recapture remaining part of kashmir but also tiranga would have been on Islamabad. but war it triggered might have cost us about 10 years and for pakistan....they would have been in medieval period.
Without putting any mirch-masaala. The scary part was more on Indian side, sighting a weaker opponent killing dozens of soldiers everyday, not knowing the actual intention or goal of the operation, confused on whether to launch a large scale war or keep getting hit in small battles, supply chain was also cut off and world wide humiliation.
The biggest problem for India was and will always be, that Pakistan is a weak side which cannot take a 60 day war, they simply run out of gas due to limited resources amid subsequent international boycott. This weakness is the biggest weapon in new world. Read up books from Tom Clancy to any other war/stretegic writers and you would find it common. The nations that lack in traditional weapons and ammunation, but has nukes is the most dangerous. India can engage China for six months in limited or somewhat open but traditional war, they will never think about using nukes. But with Pakistan its different.
An open war b/w the two rivals is very unlikely in today's world. It might not happen for next 50 years. Because both will never be wanted to lose the economical growth they are expecting/enjoying. That is why we see India wants to make good relationship with Pakistan and like to see a stronger Pakistan, economically. Because if Pakistan fails as state, and it ppl see chaos everywhere in the country, there is a chance that militants or millitary let out the anger on India (as it is normal to blame others or do filthy politics) and if someone triggered the nuke button in worse situation, it would definetely be an end for Pakistan, but India will go 50 years behind, a situation that is the biggest nightmare for the Indians at this moment.