Speaking of Poverty in Pak and don’t even know what goes in India, you are a genius I’d say… :k:
That is why India has an army & our army has a country. No wonder every problem in Pakistan can be traced back to army rule.
Wow. Now that is a hyperbole if I ever saw one. Our Economic issues stem back to Bhutto and his nationalization policies, that crippled our growth, eliminated any concept of a capitalist system not dependent on government subsidies and lastly reinforced the feudal land lord system.
Socially our political governments have let the health sector, education sector and social sectors rot to a state of decay. Since 1988, these sectors have actually regressed. Yes they have gone backwards.
Political our system is in the hands of a criminal and his chimpanzee. The feudal land lords buy their votes. The people are still in bonded servitude and refuse to instil a concept of law and order in the country.
The issues that can be blamed on the military are:
1. Afghanistan
2. MQM
3. Armed elements in the country
Blame the US for the terrorist attacks and suicide bombings. Or rather the Indians.
As for the original post. It is not his Kargil. Kargil was a venture where the Pakistan military refused to recognize its own men and left them to rot. How is that like Mumbai? Mumbai is a terrorist attack which is blamed on Pakistan because of a letter written by one man who the Indians say he is Pakistan. A letter! Ha that is what passes for proof these days.
And what is wrong in feeling patriotic? What is so inherently wrong in supporting our men and women in the armed forces? Seriously I wonder half the time if you all are Pakistani or not. So it would be nice to know why feeling patriotic and supporting the men and women in the Pak armed forces is a negative thing?
LOL, yes Sindhis or Balochs didn’t exist during previous martial laws. Good joke. :k:
I do respect your patriotism…however I do not agree with your point of view stated in your post…
Bhutto’s nationalisation did a lot of damage to our economic conditions back in 70s…however I do not agree with your usual feudal bashing which represent your total ignorance of rural economy of Pakistan…which is mostly a result of propoganda against agriculture sector by a largely urban based ethnic party in Pakistan…agriculture was the worse profession in Pakistan in last 62 years as far as financial gains compared to investment made are concerned…I don’t think if you know the financial gains made by these so called land lord feudals you would like to be in agriculture business…
The main reason for our economic difficulties today are our isolation and country perception due to jihadi patronising of Pakistan army…even today people like Masood Azhar, Dawood Ibrahim, Hafiz Saeed, Fazlullah, Baitullah Mehsud and all sort of global terrorist are protected and patronised by our army in a double game they play and want to fool the world…
There were no independent political governments in our country’s history of 62 years…they were just puppets in the hands of army mafia…unable to do anything on their own without the consent and approvel of their army masters…
Even today Zardari is installed by same mafia by giving him NRO…and when he tried to end this isolation we are facing in the world today by normalising releations with India suddenly an incident in Mumbai occured…it is too much of a coincident to believe our army mafia’s version and looking at their past record…
The only people to blame for the situation we are in today are us and our army mafia bosses…do you really think if our army mafia bosses had a sincere resolve to end this jihadi business they could not do it…all these jihadi outfits are creations of our own army and still today the command centre of these jihdis is somewhere in the army head quarters of our own army establishment…
Please do not wonder too much if we are Pakistanis or not…we are as patriotic as you are…the only difference is we look at things from a different angle and prospective…we completely mis trust the army mafia and I don’t think I need to explain in detail the reasons for this mistrust…you are invited to study our 62 year old history and you will find millions of reasons for this mistrust…
I am just cautioning you to be fooled by these mafia like men in uniform once again…none of their actions are actually in the real interest of the country…
India not the real enemy; militancy is
India not the real enemy; militancy is
Islamabad diary
Friday, December 26, 2008
by Ayaz Amir
Militancy and extremism on the march. Three schools in Peshawar attacked with rockets. The Fazlullah-led Taliban in Swat ordering the closure of girls’ schools from January 15. Scores of schools already torched in Swat, one of the most beautiful places on earth. Swat’s prestigious Sangota Public School blown up on Oct 7. These events are far more important, of deeper impact, than the bluster and threats coming our way from India.
India will have to take leave of its senses to attack Pakistan, even to carry out a limited attack, what armchair idiots like to call a “precision strike”. Any Indian attack, precision or otherwise, will elicit a Pakistani response. Where that might lead to falls in the realm of the incalculable. It needs no Clausewitz to vouchsafe that it is easier to start wars; much harder, as the Americans from their Iraq and Afghanistan experience can testify, to end them.
India is piling up the pressure on Pakistan, exploiting the opportunity provided by the Mumbai attacks. We should take cognisance of the pressure and resist it. But there is no need to go into panic mode. India is not attacking us. Or, rather, it has no need to attack us because we are attacking ourselves from within. Militancy is on the march and the state (I can think of no better word) is in retreat, helpless before the militant onslaught, now confined not just to FATA and Swat but spreading, and indeed clueless about how to combat it.
We know how to meet any threat from India. This is travelled territory, a script we know by heart. But India is not the problem. We are being slowly devoured and destroyed from within and there is no agreed script about how this challenge, now turning into a grave threat, is to be met.
India says we are in denial about Mumbai. This is not true. Evidence of any smoking gun, clinching evidence rather than rhetorical flourishes, has yet to be shown to Pakistan. But this is beside the point. We, the Pakistani people and our state, are in denial about the tramp of what could easily pass for the 21st century equivalent of the Huns in the northwest and the north.
The problem before us has its roots in the past but it won’t do to make the past an alibi or excuse for twiddling our thumbs in the present.** Gen Zia all those years ago helped create this Frankenstein monster and Gen Musharraf through ill-judged cunning, and equally ill-judged military actions, allowed militancy and extremism to become the fast-growing viruses which they presently are. But berating Zia and Musharraf won’t do us any good. The monster is a monster, regardless of the laboratory or the geniuses who created him.**
What defies understanding, and the army has yet to come up with a convincing explanation, is why the army operation in Swat has come to a standstill, without being able to dent the power of the Fazlullah-led militants? It has been trying to clear Swat for over a year now but Fazlullah’s forces are stronger than ever. What is happening? There may be an American angle to the situation in FATA but there is none in Swat.
Turmoil in Swat makes nonsense of the concept of sovereignty. If we are not internally fully sovereign, of what worth our claims to external sovereignty? The threat in Swat, because it undermines the nation from within, is more serious than any notional threat from India. The army high command should be concentrating on this and senior generals would do the nation greater service by stationing themselves in Swat rather than lolling about in Rawalpindi. **Indeed, it would be no bad idea for the Rawalpindi Golf Club, where senior generals take their leisure, to close down while the troubles in FATA and Swat last. This is no time to play golf. **
Afghanistan and Iraq may be stupid wars but American and British leaders make it a point of visiting their troops in both countries. Musharraf never, not once, visited FATA. He never visited Swat. Gen Kayani has gone to both places but he needs to go there more. What about President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani? At the drop of a hat they set off on foreign tours. But they can’t bring themselves to visit troops in FATA and Swat. There can be no greater shame than this.
The world has changed and so has our regional environment. War with India—-or from India’s point of view, war with Pakistan——should no longer be a possibility or an option. The nature of the threat has changed. The armed forces therefore need to revamp and restyle both their thinking and their posture. F-16s and more inter sub-continental missiles will do us little good. How many atom bombs do we have? Fifty? That should be enough for any sane notion of defence against India. If 50 atom bombs are insufficient all the world’s arms will not give us a sense of security.
We need a leaner force, more attuned to covert operations and warfare in the rugged north and northwest. The eastern frontier must become a frontier of peace if we are to devote what energies we have to the threat from within. Which doesn’t mean we lower our guard, only that we give up on meaningless warmongering. It is time to bury the notion, so beloved of the Nazria-e-Pakistan school of thought, that India is our eternal enemy. It isn’t. India is not torching our schools. It is not proscribing female education. Someone else is.
To Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, whom I once heard lecturing at a Jamaat-ud-Daawa mosque in Chakwal, I would respectfully say that the time for the kind of ‘jihad’ as promoted in the 1980s and 1990s is over. What was possible then is no longer possible now. That kind of ‘jihad’ far from serving any useful purpose or advancing any Pakistani interests now endangers the country. A farewell to ‘jihad’, turning Kalashnikovs into ploughshares, that is what Pakistan needs.
When the Bolsheviks under Lenin seized power in Russia in 1917, the First World War still raging, large parts of western Russia were under German occupation. Most of the members of the Bolshevik central committee were for continuing the war. But Lenin insisted that saving the Revolution was more important. The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk concluded with Germany imposed humiliating terms on Russia, including the loss of the Ukraine, but Lenin accepted them in the hope that if the Revolution triumphed temporary setbacks would be of no account. Events proved him right. Germany lost the war and the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk came to nothing.
**Saving Pakistan from within must take priority over everything else. Notions of strategic depth and the like, of ‘jihad’ as an instrument of national policy, must finally be discarded. Folly sowed over 30 years of benighted effort has come to haunt us. High time we gave up on these ghosts from the past. **
The army is pitted against the Taliban in FATA but there are persistent accusations, never persuasively denied, that it turns a blind eye to the presence of Taliban elements in and around Quetta. How long can we sustain such dichotomies?
Should the ISI be brought under ISI control? Even if it is, that would still be but a half-step. What gives the ISI a distinct imprint is its umbilical link with the army. Army officers rotate to and from it, making the ISI an extension of the army. The time may have come to consider ways of turning the ISI into a professional spy organisation like the CIA and KGB, or even RAW for that matter. These organisations are not staffed by army officers.
Immediately after the Mumbai attacks our government’s stand could have been more coherent. But as consultations with various branches of government and other political leaders got underway, some of the earlier fumbling disappeared.
This is not a Churchillian government. I think we are all agreed on this score. Even so, with all the confusion on display, Pakistan’s response to combined American and Indian pressure in 2008 has been a whole lot more steady and sensible than Gen Musharraf’s response to American pressure in 2001. Which serves to underline the distinction that the most fumbling democracy is preferable to any kind of military dictatorship.
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Actually no. You see the problem with Pakistan’s agriculture sector is not that it can’t produce high yield crops that are worth billions of dollars. It does that already.
ITC - International Trade Statistics by Country and Product - Pakistan - Exports 2001-2005
If you look at that data table you will see our agriculture sector exports have increased over those 5 years. The difference is that there is no trickle down effect. This is why I consider Nehru a brilliant leader. He destroyed the hold the Feudal landlords had on the agriculture sector in India. We on the other hand made them politicians. Our agriculture sector produces on average 2 billion dollars worth of exports. Yet the real value income of our farmers has not increased since 1960 in real terms. SDPI has an interesting article on it. If you care to read up on it.
I am of course excluding cotton and cotton based products from that 2 billion dollars. In Pakistan the profit in the agriculture sector is high. Disproportionately high compared to other countries while the tax rate is extremely low compared to countries in our bracket. Now on to terrorism. I again disagree. Our economic woes are not linked to terrorism at all. They are linked to:
- A lack of education and independence in the rural areas due to feudalism
- An ageing and decrepit infrastructure system. Hell our rail system dates back to colonial times and has not been upgraded.
- In ability of government to implement necessary land reform to promote the necessary social aspects like education for all in areas like interior Sindh, Balochistan, FATA and southern Punjab.
[quoteThere were no independent political governments in our country’s history of 62 years…they were just puppets in the hands of army mafia…unable to do anything on their own without the consent and approvel of their army masters…
Even today Zardari is installed by same mafia by giving him NRO…and when he tried to end this isolation we are facing in the world today by normalising releations with India suddenly an incident in Mumbai occured…it is too much of a coincident to believe our army mafia’s version and lokking at their past record…[/quote]
Wow. I have no idea how to respond to that. If you believe that, I got a bridge I want to sell to you and Firzene.
Sorry. But the fact that the political parties have taken kick backs and stolen money that belongs to the people of Pakistan is by far the largest single group we are to blame. If you are not going to blame those who instil a society that is corrupt and based on absolute power with nothing but contempt for law and order, you really need to take off those rose tinted glasses.
If you are patriotic then tell me what’s wrong in supporting our men and women in the army? I have millions of reasons to mistrust the army. Yes. I have billions of reasons to consider the Bhutto family as the single biggest insult to the Pakistani people and those who have given their lives during partition and afterwards.
As for Ayaz Amir. Never did like the man. Considering his political past and linkages with nearly every corrupt SOB in politics.
Wow. Now that is a hyperbole if I ever saw one. Our Economic issues stem back to Bhutto and his nationalization policies, that crippled our growth, eliminated any concept of a capitalist system not dependent on government subsidies and lastly reinforced the feudal land lord system.
Socially our political governments have let the health sector, education sector and social sectors rot to a state of decay. Since 1988, these sectors have actually regressed. Yes they have gone backwards.
Political our system is in the hands of a criminal and his chimpanzee. The feudal land lords buy their votes. The people are still in bonded servitude and refuse to instil a concept of law and order in the country.
The issues that can be blamed on the military are: 1. Afghanistan 2. MQM 3. Armed elements in the country
Blame the US for the terrorist attacks and suicide bombings. Or rather the Indians.
As for the original post. It is not his Kargil. Kargil was a venture where the Pakistan military refused to recognize its own men and left them to rot. How is that like Mumbai? Mumbai is a terrorist attack which is blamed on Pakistan because of a letter written by one man who the Indians say he is Pakistan. A letter! Ha that is what passes for proof these days.
And what is wrong in feeling patriotic? What is so inherently wrong in supporting our men and women in the armed forces? Seriously I wonder half the time if you all are Pakistani or not. So it would be nice to know why feeling patriotic and supporting the men and women in the Pak armed forces is a negative thing?
Political and economic problems are fixable, but social engineering & brain washing of entire generation by jihadi generals & introduction of violent political Islam is what is going to destroy Pakistan. These people now are cancer in literal sense in our society, they cannot be reason with & everyday they're taking Pakistan closer to point of no return.
As for patriotism, there is nothing patriotic about supporting criminals. Pakistani generals broke up the country & they'll will do it again. They never allowed any institution to work & that is reason why country is in mess.
Political and economic problems are fixable, but social engineering & brain washing of entire generation by jihadi generals & introduction of violent political Islam is what is going to destroy Pakistan. These people now are cancer in literal sense in our society, they cannot be reason with & everyday they're taking Pakistan closer to point of no return.
As for patriotism, there is nothing patriotic about supporting criminals. Pakistani generals broke up the country & they'll will do it again. They never allowed any institution to work & that is reason why country is in mess.
What brainwashing when you had 12 years of democratic rule where the politicans looted the country and destroyed any concept of law and order in the country? There I disagree. Human nature requires weakness. You see a person who has a job, who has a car, who has a family he can take care off has no need to go and blow himself up. His material possessions are his weakness. However a man who has no job, sees people dying all around him and feels nothing but frustration is a man who will blow himself up. That is directly related to political and economic stability in the and the ability to receive an education.
I see now the solider in the frozen mountains bordering Indian Occupied Kashmir doing his duty for the sake of a country he loves is a criminal. Let me guess. The guys on the Indian side are heroes right?
Bhutto broke up the country by refusing to accept the elections which he lost. Secondly if you don't support criminals I certainly hope you don't support the Bhutto Clan.
If you are patriotic then tell me what's wrong in supporting our men and women in the army? I have millions of reasons to mistrust the army. Yes. I have billions of reasons to consider the Bhutto family as the single biggest insult to the Pakistani people and those who have given their lives during partition and afterwards.
As for Ayaz Amir. Never did like the man. Considering his political past and linkages with nearly every corrupt SOB in politics.
You have million reasons to mistrust the army...and rightly so...and yet you insist on supporting them blindly and call it patriotism...
I think you and I live on different planets as far as our perceptions are concerned....you don't believe at all that jihadism is any problem or has done any damage to the economic uplift of our country while I believe it is the main problem....and we can continue to disagree with each other on this point....without questioning each other's patriotism....
[quote]
Now on to terrorism. I again disagree. Our economic woes are not linked to terrorism at all.
[/quote]
Political and economic problems are fixable, but social engineering & brain washing of entire generation by jihadi generals & introduction of violent political Islam is what is going to destroy Pakistan. These people now are cancer in literal sense in our society, they cannot be reason with & everyday they're taking Pakistan closer to point of no return.
As for patriotism, there is nothing patriotic about supporting criminals. Pakistani generals broke up the country & they'll will do it again. They never allowed any institution to work & that is reason why country is in mess.
You explained it much better than I could do in precise words...I hope CM bhai can see the point...
You see a person who has a job, who has a car, who has a family he can take care off has no need to go and blow himself up. His material possessions are his weakness. However a man who has no job, sees people dying all around him and feels nothing but frustration is a man who will blow himself up. That is directly related to political and economic stability in the and the ability to receive an education.
How are you going to explain the people who did 9/11...I don't think these people were homeless or dying because of hunger....unless you beleive in conspiracy theories that 9/11 was done by some zionist...
I think you should come out of your state of self denial....
Re: Mumbai incident is Zardari's Kargil...
Altaf Bhai should become the ruler of Pakistan.
Re: Mumbai incident is Zardari's Kargil...
Indoctrination of love of army is hard to deprogram for many of us.
Indoctrination of love of army is hard to deprogram for many of us.
Tell that to families of the soldiers that have fallen for our Fatherland. Pakistan is a garrison state for a reason:
- Opposition from Afghanistan as early as 1947.
- India: 3 Wars, countless skirmishes, Kashmir stolen from us
- Cold War involvement: Playing the big boys game when Russia invaded Afghanistan.
- Religious Militancy: Fueled by the continuing alliance with the US in the 'War on Terror.'
So when we review these threats, what credible counterbalancing force do we have? It's not the monkeyboy politicians, ignorant masses on the streets, and certainly not many of the enlightened members of gupistan, who, without formal training in politics, military or and another background useful for the defense of Pakistan are here to spew hatred against an institution that is the first and only guarantor of the existance and survivial of the Pakistani state.
If you want to say that the Pakistani military has a state, then sure I'll agree with you. Unfortunately you chose to be ignorant of the history of Pakistan and her neighborrhod.
CM has the best and most spot on analysis. I don't know his background but it is based on a solid geopolitical understanding of the region, not some arm chair quarterbacking.
CM has the best and most spot on analysis. I don't know his background but it is based on a solid geopolitical understanding of the region, not some arm chair quarterbacking.
Agree with you and thats because he works for UN.
Agree with you and thats because he works for UN.
Makes perfect sense! CM, I did some consulting work for a think tank you might know. Good to see intelligent folks here.
Re: Mumbai incident is Zardari's Kargil...
80% of the problems, pakistani army has created for itself, i.e. afghan jihad, east pakistan civil war, kargil misadventure, creation of taliban, funding of other random jihadi groups. No one put a gun to the generals head to go down this path of violence.
80% of the problems, pakistani army has created for itself, i.e. afghan jihad, east pakistan civil war, kargil misadventure, creation of taliban, funding of other random jihadi groups. No one put a gun to the generals head to go down this path of violence.
So the civilian political establishment is not at fault at all?
- BB placed the Taliban in the position of power in Afghanistan.
- E. Pakistan was a political defeat when Sheik Mujeeb should have been the PM of united Pakistan. ZAB in his hunger for power preferred to see E. Pakistan go its own way.
- the jihadi groups received and continue to receive support and cover from Islamist political parties.
I am not saying that the military is not responsible for some of the wrongs in Pakistan, espicially since it governed thecountry for half of the time since independence. That 80% figure is incorrect because the military accomplished many of its policies in connivance with the political establishment.
80% of the problems, pakistani army has created for itself, i.e. afghan jihad, east pakistan civil war, kargil misadventure, creation of taliban, funding of other random jihadi groups. No one put a gun to the generals head to go down this path of violence.
No WD bhaijaan...we will never look at our misdeeds...for us India/America/politicians who were out of country for last ten years are responsible for all this mess...please check CM's comment...
[quote]
Now on to terrorism. I again disagree. Our economic woes are not linked to terrorism *at all. *
[/quote]
80% of the problems, pakistani army has created for itself, i.e. afghan jihad, east pakistan civil war, kargil misadventure, creation of taliban, funding of other random jihadi groups. No one put a gun to the generals head to go down this path of violence.
This gave the Pakistani military an excuse and legitimacy to be in power.