Re: Mughal caste
All these freaks ranting about zaats and other insane stuff on this board need to go back to stone age. It's all in such bad taste.
Re: Mughal caste
How is it in bad taste?...That's just daft...it's actually called geneology- a subject where one tries to find out about their ancestoral heritage...From an Islamic point of view, it is agreed that yes, castes are utterly wrong...but what is not wrong is discussing about the whole system and how it came into existence. No one in this thread has prejudiced any other caste, and therefore the thread is fully valid as much as any other!
Mr Stalker might wanna go and stalk another thread!
Re: Mughal caste
^ It's actually called "jahaalat". Folks in Pak need to get out of it before its too late.
Re: Mughal caste
What doese mughal mean ? please explain in clear words
Re: Mughal caste
HANG ON A MINUTE...
Let's just clear a few things up here...
*I never posted this thread to better my status amongst people from other "castes" and nor have I used my "mughali" roots to any advantage...That's where the jahaalat lies...when, people look down on others because of their castes! *
I merely posted to find out about the history of Mughals, and where they fit in, in the wider history of Indo-Pak. Secondly i'm not even in Pakistan! Your argument is seriously flawed, you are asking people not to understand and look into something which is disliked in Islam...surely people need to understand the ins and outs of something before they can comprehend why it is favoured/disliked...
Knowledge without action is insanity, **
**Action without knowledge is vanity! (Imam Ghazali)
Re: Mughal caste
are you refering to how people tend to look for weddin proposals from a certain group...or from their clan? like how if ur rajput u should marry a rajput..? i think post people are past that and dont look at that much anymore. i hope not
Re: Mughal caste
I don't think discussing/knowing your caste is exactly jahiliyat, but when u look down on someone for being a lower caste, or not marrying someone or something, then yeah its haram and wrong..
Tera dulhan, naa u'd be surprised ppl can still be stuck on teh stupidest crap
Re: Mughal caste
Agree with Kazi. But I see your point Stalker.
I think people generally from the Indo-Pak subcontinent look at their history, some use it (and succesfully live upto reputations) some abuse it (and do the prejudice things you are implying).
Ultimately, this is dying down. Jahliya is coming to an end on this front, tribes are intermarrying from others on a daily basis in shehers (cities) back home and here in the UK.
But to know your own history, learn of your ancestry is not prejudice. It's a realisation. Dominant khandaan's tend to have strong reputed people from them. Cultivating this is not a harmful or a jaahil thing in my opinion. As long as (as Kazi stated) you dont look down on anyone.
Re: Mughal caste
unfortnaltly there are still people with the mentality that like should marry like, even in the uk,
Kazi is correct insaying having an understanding of something so you can understand the rights and wrongs of it are very important.
dont use what your past is,
a name, any name infact is just used to distinguish one person from another.
it does not mean that having a certain name makes you more important than eeryone else.
Re: Mughal caste
I think people generally from the Indo-Pak subcontinent look at their history, some use it (and succesfully live upto reputations) ....
The fact that you associate a "reputation" with a zaat IS just one of the reasons it is jahaalat.
Re: Mughal caste
Strange. One adopts the reputation automatically when one mentions the name of the father? Then why did many propminent Muslim Sahabis, Ahl e Bait all mention their basic names as e.g. Ali Ibn Talib? Muhammad Ibn Abdullah?
Every tribe has a distinction, these were created by Allah SWT (as confirmed in the Quran) yes? Then what exactly IS this distinction? Is it;
a) Physical? Nope, we all have arms and legs, some are strong and weak physically even within the same clan.
b) Uglyness and Beauty? Nope. But there was one tribe that came to the Holy Prophet Pbuh to request help in making their Ahl more attractive (Saffron was recommended through this Hadith I believe) so to a point possibly.
c) Nature? Some tribes are very dominant and warlike, some are very easy going and prefer peace to war.
Then it is obvious that certain tribes have certain characteristics, which become more pronounced and they are noted for it. Distinctions are made. This, reputations are therefore also made.
What if the reputation of the tribe is for good honest conduct? Is following that Jahaliyah too?
I dont think so somehow dude....
Re: Mughal caste
Even the British have castes - they call them class.
Middle class, royal class, lower class !!
The Royal class does'nt want to marry into the ' working class' do they?
Re: Mughal caste
It is stupid asking people not to give up their tribal/ethnic identities all of a sudden. Groups/communities arise in response to the challenges of nature both animate and un-animate. And they are means of survival in a world characterized by both competition and cooperation. Apart from material purposes, communal/group affiliations also fulfill socio-psychological needs of humans.
Group is a mean for the individual to ensure survival and achieve self-actualization.
Economic conditions shape social organization and conditions.
In a physical environment with limited resources, people would get tribally organized (because there is usually no effective state and only tribal affiliation can ensure protection, survival, and share in resources).
In an environment where there is abundance of land, pastures, and water, class and castes would arise. Over time, there would arise a class of warriors, administrators, and rulers-there would arise another class of preachers and clergy i.e. religious class-, and there would arise a third class of working people. Classes are usually permanent and transition from one class to another is not possible.
In a technocenteric society, classes, tribes, extended families, etc. disintegrate and personal liberty gets stronger. But this becomes possible only due to urbanization, industralization, and the emergence of an effective state (modernization). Such society is politically organized.
Anyhow this is a complex issue.
By the way insisting that a Muslim should marry a Muslim is also "Jahalat". Rather, I will say basing social organization/relations on religion is far greater "jahalat" for what is religion-----just a blind belief about nature of things ( usually, the group thinks it is God's choosen people and therefore superior than others).
Re: Mughal caste
Mughal is the Persian word for Mongol. Other derivates include Mogul, Moghul…
The significance of the Mongols is that they were the ones who estabilished the largest empire in the history of mankind (to date). It stretched from the (Chinese) Pacific Ocean to Hungary (Europe). Mongols, at that time, had the best nomad cavalry (i.e: horses & horsemen), which allowed them to conquer vast amounts of land. The main Khan (leader) of the Mongols was Genghis Khan (Chengez Khan in Persian).
Now, the Mongol Khans conquered so many lands, that I won’t be able to list them all.
When the Mongols reached the Persian influenced areas & settled there, the derivate names started to form *
Timurlane (Taimurlane/tehmoorlane) was the the first Muslim Mughal Khan. He was a direct descendant of Genghis Khan.
A direct descendant of Timurlane, was Babur. Babur was a Turco-Persian Muslim (also a Mughal), who founded the first Mughal Dynasty of India.
And, that is how the significance of Mughals came to the Indian sub-continent.
Somebody already mentioned a few common Mughal names, such as Mirza, Beg (Bek in Central Asia), and Chughtai (Chagatai in Central Asia).
Lohaar was a caste of **Blacksmiths **or steel/metal workers. From what I know, it is quite common amongst Indian Sikhs from the Punjab region.
The word Lohaar is derived from the word Lohaa, which means steel.
Mughal means Mongol.
The word is Persian.*
Re: Mughal caste
Sorry, read the above as "....asking people to give up...".
Re: Mughal caste
Bro, I wouldnt go so far as to asking people to conform to their faith as 'Jahaliyat'.
In fact it would help assimilation into the tribe, thats without a doubt. Thats how many converted to any faith, ever. It's joining a union of sorts.
Faith/belief/religion are all a way of life. Democracy is a way of life, and so is atheism.
However, what I would say, is that the 'essence of religious principles' should be adhered to, i.e. tolerance, respect for other groups, open and fair dealing and alliances, fairness in marital and business pursuits etc. Now blind faith in THESE areas would do the world a lot of good, without a doubt.
Re: Mughal caste
Mughal is the Arabized transliteration of the Persian word for Mongol; the Persian word is in fact Mughul.
What i dont understand it why is Mughal constantly being refered to as a Zaat or a caste? I think there should be distinctions made between Comme/ Nation, Ethnicity, Social Group, Social Status and Caste. There is but a small but slight difference between these different terms, which needs to be addressed.