I don't want to defend MQM's terrorism but Nawaz wanted to rule by hook and crook too, don't forget his comrades rampaging/hooligan in SC.
most of those comrades ended up in PML[Q] soon after
Right, so did Benazir apologise after her (:D) worse governance. To me, Nawaz is still same crooked politician whose colors will be seen God forbid he comes to power again. In his 2nd era he was about to turn into full blown dictator, almost declared himself as “Ameerul Momineen” 
Re: MQM a by product of agencies: Nawaz
It does not matter, who created whom. Its about what caught on, and what did not. Mqm caught on and others did'nt, else we would have known their names.
Re: MQM a by product of agencies: Nawaz
Pakistan has a history littered with political frankensteins ..but even manufactured politicians and political parties can turn themselves into genuiane ones. It's a question of personal charisma and resources in the end...and you can distinguish the two as real parties can survive in opposition as there vote bank is solid even if they lack candidates, manufactured ones disintegrate in opposition as they have constituency led politicians who are backed up by the state.
Re: MQM a by product of agencies: Nawaz
MQM a by product of Agencies
Tell us something new .. will ya :D
Re: MQM a by product of agencies: Nawaz
MQM was "supported" (and not created) by the military regime.
Military regime supports a particular party (and punishes some) based on the need of the hour. However Muslim League has been the most favorite throughout the history of Pakistan.
This is the same in case of political parties too. They also support different groups at different times.
Re: MQM a by product of agencies: Nawaz
^ you know all :) really intelligent stuff.
Just in case if you don't know the history of MQM, Altaf didn't come from MARS. He has lived in Karachi among other people. I know a person who had been with him from Jamiat days till Azeem Tariq died in 1992. If you don't know about something, please don't try to impose fake ideas. Why, how and who created MQM is not a secret. Many of Altaf's colleauges and class mates and MQM co-founders (who left new born party during ethnic riots in late 80s) will let you know kacha chattha of Altaf and Zia and all the middle men that were used in MQM's launch. Go figure!
101% agreed.:) The only difference is that Nawaz and his party evolved as a genuine political party where as Altaf and his MQM is a terrorist party or a pressure group of Karachi and Hyderabad, wants to rule by hook or crook. Ziaul Haq created this party by making a NY taxi driver its leader and the his party continued to thrive in Mush's rule.
Correction MQM chief is ex Chicago cab driver & not NY one. I'm sure you don't want to be sued by NY taxi walas for insulting them... :D
As for NZ other other political parties, with an exception of ANP all the parties have been in bed with generals one time of other. It just proves that if we want genuine grass root level leadership to grow than we must keep military out of politics for all times to come.
"our parliament" is full of corrupt and useless politicians - they are not and have never been proved to be trusted with power.
i dont support the role of agencies but i certainly dont like to see power concentrated in the hands of politicans - some who only ever get in because they are powerful and feudal.
Saying Zia was the 'agencies' is pretty absurd because Zia and intelligence were two different things, both literally and figuratively.
Again, I hope you guys realize that our parliament should be the one making important decisions, not these intelligence agencies, who have gone a step further to make sure any powerful party is curtailed and challenged by rogue parties such as the MQM.
were nt the ANP linked with taking money from "agencies" at times?
the ANP have been far from clean handed in the last election - they were given a "helping" hand against other parties in some areas.
military can be kept out of politics - but why dont people in pakistan become true to the meaning of what a democracy is. we can blame the military, leaders everyone - but lets face it the whole deomcractic and political process is flawed right from the bottom to the top.
Correction MQM chief is ex Chicago cab driver & not NY one. I'm sure you don't want to be sued by NY taxi walas for insulting them... :D
As for NZ other other political parties, with an exception of ANP all the parties have been in bed with generals one time of other. It just proves that if we want genuine grass root level leadership to grow than we must keep military out of politics for all times come.
"our parliament" is full of corrupt and useless politicians - they are not and have never been proved to be trusted with power. i dont support the role of agencies but i certainly dont like to see power concentrated in the hands of politicans - some who only ever get in because they are powerful and feudal.
Our society is full of corrupts...that includes you me, and system of govt evolves overtime & not overnight. If institutions are not allowed to work how can you expect them perform?
military can be kept out of politics - but why dont people in pakistan become true to the meaning of what a democracy is. we can blame the military, leaders everyone - but lets face it the whole deomcractic and political process is flawed right from the bottom to the top.
ANP has been thorn in sides of generals for long time & I'm not aware of any money they've taken from agencies. If you have proof do share. Also if system is not allowed to work or correct itself overtime like in mature democracies it will remain flawed forever.
this is ..the chicken or the egg argument..which came first.....we point fingers at the army...yet we forget that our society from top to bottom is in no way democratic.....the poor man at the bottom has no ability to function democratically...poeople vote on tribal and family lines,
equality and justice have never been part of our culture in ALL parts of pakistan.....the storng have always dominated....what would be the PPP vote bank if the feudal serfs within sindh and lower punjab were allowed to vote as they wanted?
given the chance these corrupt politicians will plunge the system further into chaos not heal it. theyhave no ability to heal.
how can an institution work if theres no one decent in it? the democratic parties had enough time to make changes - yet they did nt. how much time do these people need to develop?
the army and intelligence agencies have never played a fair role in politics but then again have the politicians ever played a fair role in their own game?
life without the army and intelligence agencies will not be better - sharif, zardari, bhutto would stillbe corrupt. they were not forced by the army to plunder and destroy their "own" credibility. they and their cronies had the chance to be decent people. they had more than one chance to do things properly. they never delivered. such people can never develop. they just carry on looting - funny thing is they are not exactly starved for cash.
i dont know why people cant get over this constant army hating. why cant people get over the fact that pakistan has a large and powerful army? people find a lot of excuses to hate the army. hating the army is a fashion - i wonder what would be the situation if there was a small and weak army? the army in pakistan is far from angellic - i agree on 1 thig they shoul dnot start supporting their own stooges but let the process develop naturally. i dislike the fact that they have put forward candidates ie the very one who is complainign now Mr sharif, Mqm chief Altfa bhai, etc But some people feel very uncomfortable withthe fact that the army has power in pakistan.
i wonder what people will be saying a year or 2 down the line when the new government will have probably taken the country a step or 2 further back.
Our society is full of corrupts...that includes you me, and system of govt evolves overtime & not overnight. If institutions are not allowed to work how can you expect them perform?
they are an extremely big thorn in the general side - is that why they took part in the 2008 election? they could have easily pulled out because of principle. but that would be too much of a thorn in the general's sides.
if the anp had any real principle they would have stayed out of the election. funnily enough nawaz sharif is moaning about agencies yet even he wanted to take part in the election. theres no end to their hypocrisy is there?
Our society is full of corrupts...that includes you me, and system of govt evolves overtime & not overnight. If institutions are not allowed to work how can you expect them perform?
Did a quick google search and i came up with this -
Chowk: Politics: The ANP Challenge
this is a description given to the article “The ANP collaborated with ISI-engineered IJI of Nawaz Sharif in 1990 and then was part of the army-backed extreme right-wing anti-PPP foces of the 1990s. **…” **
There is no argument about this fact. Involvement of ISI the most powerful branch of army is responsible of maneuvering democracy in Pakistan by bribing, blackmail, extortion, use of force, etc. But also responsible for creating organizations like PNA, MQM, PPI, IJI, PML (Q) etc. But then ISI functions under dictators and mostly obay their orders in additon to few badmashis of their own.
Once upon a time Bhutto said "Pakistan ki asal taaqat awam hay" But when Zia dethroned him illegally, he said "Pakistan ki asal taaqat fauj hay", which is still the truth even today. :)
Re: MQM a by product of agencies: Nawaz
here are some details
ZAB - minister of a General who brought him to politics and got a launch pad for PPP
MQM - Gen Zia sponsored party to contour PP
Nawaz - Gen Zia political child, land slide victory by army rigid elections
Chaudaries - Supported by army and establishment through family links
you do the maths
its amazing to hear such things from political child of general himself.
they are an extremely big thorn in the general side - is that why they took part in the 2008 election? they could have easily pulled out because of principle. but that would be too much of a thorn in the general's sides.
if the anp had any real principle they would have stayed out of the election. funnily enough nawaz sharif is moaning about agencies yet even he wanted to take part in the election. theres no end to their hypocrisy is there?
Its funny how you guys criticize people for boycotting elections (imran), and then criticize people for NOT boycotting elections (Nawaz), just because both of them are on the opp side of the fence as far as their views are concerned about dictatorship. Anyways, Nawaz did the right thing, had he not participated things would have been very rosy for the dicatator and his rubber stamp yes men parliament.
here are some details
ZAB - minister of a General who brought him to politics and got a launch pad for PPP MQM - Gen Zia sponsored party to contour PP Nawaz - Gen Zia political child, land slide victory by army rigid elections Chaudaries - Supported by army and establishment through family links
you do the maths its amazing to hear such things from political child of general himself.
Add JI and JUI in the list. They are long time estabishment's darling parties. Always pull the strings at the right time.
BTW ZAB went against his masters, first Ayub that resulted in his exile from Military's good book. Second US after ripping off that resolution in UN secuirty counsil session, Islamic conf and Nuclear program that resulted in Kessinger threatening him and his family of worse consequences. The role of PNA and ZIA was the revenge of both Military and US. Both proved to be loyal to their masters in the following decade.
Amour,
Again PPP of ZAB and PML (N) of NS evolved as political parties. But MQM and Chaudhries have continued to be B team of dictators. MQM is not even a national political party but a pressure group and instrument of estabilishment to topple any elected government. They also wants to rule by hook or crook because in real democracy this ethinic party has no chance to rule over masses. They can only rule on the shoulders of dictators.