Most Persecuted Religions in History

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

I was talking about before the Islamic invasion. There is another thread here where we discussed the inquisition and brutality of Portuguese in Goa. Please read up on our glorious past, I promise U that it is not an ancient day "India-shining" hyperbole.
All looters came to India for its wealth and it continued till the British denuded us. Our ancient contributions to science and mathematics and our universities are well known and thrived due to royal patronage. The rulers who ruled later did not seem to be interested in promoting scientific thought. If there are any major scientific and mathematical contributions from the mughal empire or the khilji dynasty please point me in the right direction.

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

I have heard of both of them.:slight_smile: Islam spread mostly in a different way in the south like trade and not through barbaric invasions. So the religious and political dynamics is completely different. There used to be more tolerance here but now-a-days it seems to be deteriorating here too.:bummer:

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

The conquests of Muslims were in response to barbarism of Muslims or weak nations not the other way round. You are trying to re-write history …

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

what about atheism ? I think the atheists were the most persecuted group in History. Even now atheism is a crime in some countries

According to this, Christians are the most persecuted currently
Most Persecuted Religions In The World - Business Insider

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

I am talking about South India in the post u quoted. Where am I re-writing history there ?

There is a large Muslim community in South India, particularly in the Malabar Coast, which can trace its roots to the ancient maritime trade between Kerala and Omanis and other Arabs. The Muslims in Kerala of Arab descent are called Jonaka Mappila.
South India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sufis played a part too.

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

So the length of rule by Jews, Christians, Greeks etc in India was almost as long as Muslim rule? From my casual read on Greek invasion from the “trusted” source of wikipedia it doesn’t appear to be so, at least in this case. That could possibly explain why conversions to Islam were more extensive than any other religion.

BTW, here is a link to some discussion on “Islamic Invasion of India” topic of wiki. Talk:Islamic invasion of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (its messy to read, but the gist being that the content of the topic aren’t entirely unbiased…I understand you didn’t cite this page).

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

I am not sure the other invaders before came and killed people in the name of religion. That is the bone of contention. Religion bigotry was not a part of other invasions before. When gandara was part of the pre-Islamic persian empire, it was left alone except for economic taxation purposes. The people were not forced to adapt diff religions nor were the conquered people’s religion ridiculed.
I am talking about the invasions of Ghaznavi, Ghori, the atrocities of Khiljis at nalanda , Timur the lame’s invasion of India where he seperated the people on the basis of religion and killed the hindus but spared the muslims, Aurangazeb’s intolerance, Tipu Sultan’s intolerance in Kerala, Sikander Butshikan of Kashmir. All these were guilty of persecution of Hindus because of their religion and forced conversions. So persecution of Hindus is a historical fact.
Having said that, there were also kings who were tolerant and who realized early on that a stable empire was only possible by keeping all the subjects happy . Notable examples are Akbar and Zain-ul-Abidin. Bin Quasim was notably tolerant in his dealing of the local population of Sindh.
Sufis played a big role in spread of Islam but it is wrong to say that there was no forced conversion at all.

on the other hand, I have heard that Maharaja Ranjit Singh was not very tolerant of muslims. Do you have links of hindu, buddhist and sikh kings who persecuted muslims in their kingdom causing them to flee or hide their religious identity ?

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

Most of these conversions were due to the preaching a of Sufis and the rigid caste system in Hinduism, I gave you a table in another thread showing how the numbers of Muslims went up from 47 % to 53 % (between 1881 and 1941), and Hinduism dropped from 44 % to 29 % in the Punjab of British India. Was persecution going on during those times too? The issue is not simplistic, and the mass conversions that took place in this region was not due to invasions but people took them to get rid of caste system.

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

muslims increased by 6% but hindus dropped by 15%. There is a slight anomaly. I am not a math person but can a 15% drop in hindus justify a 6% increase of muslims ? Maybe many hindus migrated ?

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

That mean not all of the blievers who left hinduiesm came to Islam they choose another religion that shows the freedom of religion .
I know its hard for u to understand

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

Interesting query :k:

The period (1881-1941) also saw conversion of lower castes into Christianity under many missionaries. This is period, when most of the churches were built in Indo-Pak.

Though Christianity in Indo-Pak contain all Income-groups today, but again majority the christian is low-income group people

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

Just a little query. Do atheists themselves consider atheism a religion?

On the other hand, do they ever remained as an organized (separately recognizable group) like other religion of the world to be persecuted?

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

Some converted to Sikhs. The Sikhs jumped from around 7 to 14 percent, and Christians increased from less than 1 % to 1.5 %. The question remains why did they convert into any religion they could find, were they feeling persecuted by the caste system in Hinduism? The areas wher we will see many Muslims converts are those areas where Sufis lived and preached.


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Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

Do you see the same trend in the rest of India or only Punjab for the same period ? If caste system was the main criteria for conversion, then how come there are so many backward castes today ? Brahmins form a miniscule % of hindus. The lower castes had 1000 years to convert out but there are so many still. I know that many dalits do not like Christianity or Islam but prefer buddhism to escape the caste system. I personally know 2 cases where they chose buddhism over Christianity and Islam did not figure in the piture at all.

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

Atheism is not something new. It has existed side by side with religions. Epicurus, the ancient greek philosopher's question is asked by atheists even today...
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Not sure how they figure in Abrahamic religions but Atheism is accepted within some religious and spiritual belief systems including Hinduism. They prescribe to a different philosophy altogether and their beliefs are considered another type of philosophy. Take the charvakas of ancient India for example. Hinduism holds atheism to be a valid but difficult to follow philosophy. Some sects /forms of Buddhism do not prescribe a belief in God too. So for a part of the world atheists can be included under the umbrella of religions IMO.
According to one estimate, atheists make up about 2.3% of the world's population, while a further 11.9% are nonreligious. That is a substantial % of humanity.

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

Interesting. Abrahamic religions don't accommodate atheistic views. It seems, when it comes to concept of God, they try to be specific and avoid creating religion within religion.

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

I havent got any figures from the rest of India, I was just responding to the allegations usually made that Islam was spread through force. If you try to delve into the matter, it seems as if most of the people especially in Punjab and others were not very happy with the caste system and hence when they got the opportunity they left Hinduism. Btw why is Sikhism also a Punjab phenomena? More than persecution the people living in the fringes, it seems were always a little bit fed up with the caste system and that you can also see in some texts from Mahabharata. I dont know the reason for this, but the biggest reason for conversions in the areas where the sufis preached was the caste system.

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

Jews in Nazi germany were not persecuted because of their religion, but because of their ethnicity. That's why even atheist Jews or non practicing Jews were persecuted. Not only them, but also half Jews (people who have a Jewish father) were persecuted as well. Ever heard of half Muslims or half Christians?

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

I dont think caste system in Hinduism was the main factor for converting to Islam. It may be one of the many but certainly not the main cause. If so why is there a caste system in Indian Islam? The objective was to escape it not carry it over to a new religion. Other than ruler sponsored forced conversions, sufism played a major role. People were more open to the sufi teachings. I have read a few and in most cases it seemed to resonate with a lot of my spiritual beliefs. Will this motivate me to convert ? No. I have realised that I can find spiritual peace in my own religion and do not need to go looking else where. But many Hindus in the olden days may have felt the similarities in philosophies which made it easier to identify with sufi Islam. Sufis were also doing social work along with missionary work and that might have helped. I have read that sufis were not particularly popular with the muslim clergy though the Mughals patronized them. Take Nund Rishi of Kashmir for example. The clergy forced the ruler to imprison him because they wanted a radical implementation and people preferred the sufism of Nund Rishi. Would Islam have had the acceptance of the people if it were not for sufis ?
With Christianity, there were other factors as well not just caste system. India and Its Missions, an official Catholic publication, issued by its American Capuchin Mission Monks (1923), discusses the "Spiritual Advantages of Famine and Cholera" under that very heading. It quotes the report of the Archdiocese of Pondicherry to his superiors in Europe: "The famine has wrought miracles. The catechumenates are filling, baptismal water flows in streams, and starving little tots fly in masses to heaven."
Mahatma Gandhi who studied Christian proselytizing closely says that it is the "deadliest poison that ever sapped the foundation of truth," that it is "arrogant", that it embodies a double falsehood: he sees "no spiritual hunger" in nominal converts and "no spiritual merit" in professional missionaries. He said that a missionary is "like any vendor of goods", and that if he had "power to legislate", he "should certainly stop all proselytizing."

Hinduism had its own reforms and bakthi movement that fought against the social prejudices and caste system. But there was not actual missionary work and proselytizing in Hinduism. Islam and Christianity was more like a one way ticket. You could check in but not check out. The last time some "hindu missionary" like swami shraddhanand started the shuddi movement in 1900s where he tried to bring back to hinduism, the converted muslims and Christians, he was opposed by the establishment. He was met with a lot of success which was what prompted a muslim fanatic named Abdul Rashid, who entered his home by posing as a visitor and assassinated him.

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

People

The enigma of the ruled converting en masse to the religion of the rulers is best depicted by the following joke: in the last days of British rule, after a demonstration in Lahore, a desi garbage handling lady, Laveezan, asked her friend Mary what the demonstration was all about. Mary replied, “They are demanding freedom from us.”

Like Laveezan and Mary, Punjabi Muslims identify themselves with the Islamic rulers of India: being followers of the same religion as the ruling community, they consider themselves a part of it. However, the economic status of lower-caste converts to Islam remained the same throughout the nine centuries of Muslim rule in India. The same holds true for the British period: converts to Christianity didn’t find themselves any better for it.
**
Conversions to Islam in India have been the subject of furious debate. Hindu fundamentalists assert that the conversions were obtained by force, while many Muslims argue that they were voluntary; that lower-caste Hindus were attracted to Islam by the Sufis of Punjab. The truth probably lies somewhere in between these two extreme views. The controversy however makes the examination of the dynamics which made Muslims a majority in Punjab no less important.

The origins of Muslim Punjab can be traced back to the tenth century. From medieval times to 1947, the bulk of Punjabi Muslims comprised peasants, artisans, workers, and feudal lords. There was no sizable middle class engaged in trade or white collar professions. The status of Muslim converts was not much better than the status of other lower castes in Punjab. Therefore, it is important to see what the caste and class of the converted was before they embraced Islam.

Like the rest of India, the caste system was very stringent in the Punjab. The segregation of the four castes i.e. Brahman, Kashatriya, Vaisyaand Sudra was a big factor in the lives of the common folk. Below the Sudars were two categories of people belonging to some crafts and ‘menial’ professions. The first category was called Antyaja and included shoemakers, jugglers, basket and shield makers, sailors, fishermen, hunters of wild animals and birds, and weavers. These eight professions were recognized as guilds. Below the Sudars were the Handis, that included sub-groups like Doma, Chandala and Badhatau, who were not included in any caste or guild. They performed menial tasks in villages, and were considered equal to the rank of illegitimate children. It was assumed that they were cursed, because the union of a Sudra father and Brahmin mother was the biggest crime in a society organised around the caste system. From the demographic composition of Punjabi Muslims, it is easy to infer that the majority converted from Sudra, Antyaja and Handi castes.** Most of the Muslim artisans and workers ordinarily belonged to the Antyaja and Handi groups who were below the four castes in social order and respectability. It is believed that a majority of the Muslim peasantry probably belonged to the Sudra, or in some cases, the Vaisya classes. In such a milieu, the caste system played a significant role in the conversion of the Hindu underclass to Islam. These oppressed castes gained hope for social mobility and cooperation with each other, in addition to not having to pay Jaziya and other taxes imposed on non-Muslims by the Muslim ruling classes.

To appreciate the caste-based conversion phenomenon, let’s look closely at some of the massive restrictions that the caste system imposed on the lower classes. All people below the Sudra caste were not allowed to live in the vicinity of the city. Sudras were supposed to be content by living on the outskirts: they could not enter the city after day time, during the day Sudras could not deliver goods and services. People from different castes were not even allowed to takeagni (fire) together, let alone share meals. In some places, the caste-system was so rigid that something as slight as the shadow of a Sudra mingling with the shadow of a Brahman was cause enough for a Brahman to return home immediately, and bathe. Consequently, in segregated areas, the Sudra and non-caste people would have to walk close to walls! Thus it makes perfect sense for such marginalised groups to have embraced Islam, which, in principle, recognises equality among all human beings.

The powerful Muslim feudal lords were largely immigrants from Northern andCentral Asia. In some cases, they assimilated in the converted Kashatriya Rajput clans and some ruling Jatt families, the communities that constitutedPunjab’s ruling elite prior to Muslim rule. The presence of so many feudal Syed families, from Jhang to Multan (Gilanis, Qureshis, Makhdums etc.) shows the continuation of the foreign elites’ domination. As a matter of fact, the situation in non-colonised jatka Punjab was worse because the indigenous people or aborigines such as Khoja and Mussali among others, were enslaved either by the foreign elite or the newly formed upper castes. The natives lived like serfs, or bound labour till quite recently, perhaps some still live in abysmal conditions even today. These wretched of the earth did not even receive marginal benefits that the urban lower and non-caste groups and peasantry from the non-feudal belt would have received by converting.

The duration of Muslim rule in Punjab also boosted the number of converts: Punjab and Sindh came under Muslim rule long before the rest of India. The length of their rule correlates with the extent of conversion to Islam. People are inclined towards the rulers’ religion and culture, even if they were indifferent to religious considerations. For example, when Maharaja Ranjit Singh took the reins of the Punjab there were only 70,000 Sikhs in the entire province ofPunjab. But when he died, after ruling for forty years, the Sikh population had multiplied manifold. But Ranjit Singh had always been indifferent to religion. Had Sikh rule lasted another two hundred years, who knows what the religious preferences of the Punjab might have been?

Not all, but some progressive Sufi orders provided an alternative ideology for lay men and women. Like earlier progressive ideological movements (such as Buddhism), Sufism had a profound effect on the Punjab. Two major Sufi schools, Chishtia and Suharwardia prospered in the Punjab more than anywhere elsethe Suharwardias had only one main centre in Multan, but the Chishtias had a significant presence throughout North India. While the Chishtia were anti-establishment, the Suharwardia were closely associated with theDelhi court: Sultan Altumash appointed Bahauddin Zakaria Multani – the founder of the Suharwardia order in Multan – as Sheikh-al-Islam (or leader of the faith).

There were fundamental differences between the two orders. The Suharwardia were more separatist, shunning non-Muslims and indigenous culture, whereas the Chishtia were open to people of all religions and embraced and enhanced the people’s culture. Suharwardis lived like royalty while Chishtis believed in not even ‘hoarding’ food for the next day. Nizamuddin Auliya of Delhi is reported to have remarked that the day when there was salt in boiled dailas (a wild berry ofPunjab) at Baba Farid’s dargah, it would seem like an Eid feast.

More importantly, the leadership of the Suharwardia was hereditary, while Chishti heads nominated their heir on merit: for the Suharwardia order, the leadership remained in Bahauddin Zakaria Multani’s own family. No Chishtia leader was related to another. Khawaja Nasiruddin Mahmood Chiragh Delhi, the fifth head of the Chishtis, did not nominate anyone, since in his view no one was competent “to bear the burden of the people.” The main Chishtia school closed at that point, though regional Khalifas continued the movement, or simply their businesses, in many cases. Later on, the Chishtia tradition was carried on by another order, the Qadiria, which produced great poets like Waris Shah and Bulleh Shah. In short, there were conservative pro-establishment Sufis like Suharwardis, who were successful in effecting conversions to Islam in the elite Hindu classes, while the progressive Sufis of the Chishtia and Qadiria orders had an impact on the masses. In post-Partition Pakistan, the Qureshi descendants of the Suharwardia Bahauddin Zakaria have been prominent rulers eg Makhdum Sajjad Hussain Qureshi, Sadiq Hussain Qureshi and now Makhdum Shah Mahmud Qureshi.

The Chishtis incorporated the Indian cultural dimension into Islam, making it more compatible with the indigenous population. They also stood in opposition to formal religion, priestly establishments and the ruling classes. In the process of this ideological struggle, the Chishtis adopted and enhanced indigenous languages and culture. The embracing of mass languages and dialects by the Chishtis in contrast to formal Sanskrit, Persian and Arabic reflected a deep commitment to the downtrodden. Most Chishti leaders, like Baba Farid Ganj-e-Shakar, were renowned scholars in Persian and Arabic, and they could have lived in comfort, but chose the people’s way of life. It can be inferred that Sufis like the Chishtis endeared themselves to the Punjabi masses and contributed towards the conversion of lower castes to Islam, or at least provided the converted Muslims with an alternative ideology that could sustain them spiritually and culturally.

In conclusion, most of the converted Punjabi Muslims belonged to lower and non-caste groups of a stratified Hindu society. The long duration of Muslim rule, the tradition of embracing new ideologies; and Sufi teachings were the main factors behind large scale conversions to Islam in the Punjab.

[RIGHT][RIGHT]Dr Manzur Ejaz taught at the Punjab University, Lahore, for many years and now lives in Virginia[/RIGHT]
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