Most Persecuted Religions in History

[Contrarian]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

Interesting debate. Until now I had thought only us Muslims love to blame everyone else except ourselves for our present day downtrodden situation, but its really heartening to know (based solely on the posts here) that Indians are at too. Them tyrant Muslims, through their forcible conversions, brought a screeching halth to what can only be imagined as heaven on earth. :k:

[The_Player]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@hareem01

ROTFL

Who wrote this Chach nama?

The Chach Nama was written by Kàzí Ismáíl . Kází Ismàíl was appointed the first Kází of Alór by Muhammad Kásim after the conquest of the place .

[The_Player]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@muqawwee123

You got my point

Not sure what your point was but there were very few exceptions like Akbar who were not into conversion.

[The_Player]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@muqawwee123

We still have many people who ideolise him. They call him hero of Sindh. Recently a minister from Khaiber Paktoonkhah expressed such views

ttp://www.thememriblog.org/urdupash…l/en/26599.htm

Interestingly enough, part of the reason Raja Dahir lost to Bin Qasim is that he was an unpopular Hindu king among his mostly Budhist subjects.

[psyah]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@calypsodc

Do you have sure proof that Raja Dahir owned the pirate vessels ? There are conflicting reports. It was a tribe of Sythians (Meds) who lived in Sindh who were pirates. Immediate causes of the conquest of the Sindh was the plunder of the gifts of Ceylon’s ruler to Hijjaj and attack on ships of Arabs that were carrying the orphans and widows of Muslim soldiers who died in Jihaad against Africa. These Arab were imprisoned later on by the Governor of Deebal . A letter written by the a prisoner asked Hajjab Bin Yousaf for help. When Hijjaj asked Dahir for release of prisoners and compensation, the later refused on the ground that he had no control over those. If he had no control, could he be blamed ? Deebal has a history of conflict with the arabs even before Dahir. There was an Arab raid at Deebal and Thana in 636 for looting purposes.
Even if the war was because of how muslim women were treated, were the captured hindu women treated any better ? What happened to Raja Dahir’s daughters? What was their fate. So is it OK to fight for a women’s honour if you cannot apply that principle to all women ?
Just because Osama was living in Pakistan is the US justified in attacking Pakistan? If it is yes in the previous case that it is a yes in the current context as well.

Peace calypsodc

The public arena has enough evidence to cast doubt on these negative opinions. As always it is necessary to go to the most authentic sources.

[calypsodc]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@Contrarian

Interesting debate. Until now I had thought only us Muslims love to blame everyone else except ourselves for our present day downtrodden situation, but its really heartening to know (based solely on the posts here) that Indians are at too. Them tyrant Muslims, through their forcible conversions, brought a screeching halth to what can only be imagined as heaven on earth. :k:

In a historic sense, u blame where the blame lies. Muslim invaders for being intolerant, hindu rulers for being weak and not defending their borders etc. Certain historical happenings have an effect even today. We should not shy away from what really happened and the consequences just because it makes some people uncomfortable. But we have to be ready to accept a different POV if presented with facts. We can only learn from the mistakes of history and move on. Can we blame the present day situation of the subcontinent on history ? No we need to learn to better ourselves. The present quagmire the countries are caught it is all us because of rising corruption, intolerance and laziness. Wait it looks like history seems to be repeating itself all over again…

[calypsodc]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@psyah

Peace calypsodc

The public arena has enough evidence to cast doubt on these negative opinions. As always it is necessary to go to the most authentic sources.

Please provide links from non-biased sources.

[psyah]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@calypsodc

Yes there are influences from centuries of living side by side. But did the muslims completely integrate ? I don’t think so. Even when the Greeks and pre-Islamic persians conquered part of the subcontinent, there were influences to certain extent. But the kings promoted local cultures and religions and did not impose a foreign language or culture on the defeated people. So the people were possibly more open to their conqueror’s influence. Unfortunately muslims did not do that. They set themselves apart . It was the first time the subcontinent faced an invasion in the name of religion as the dominant factor. The kings used persian and arabic as court languages instead of the native languages. Except for a few rulers, administration esp high posts were reserved based on religion. Even Tipu sultan who is considered a hero by many tried to impose persian as a court and administrative language on the reluctant kannada speaking subjects. In this way they set themselves apart always reminding the locals that they were not completely one of the natives.
Qawwali originated in Persia but it fused with Indian musical traditions later and evolved to its present form.

You would complain both ways … Integrate then you would say the Hindus were forcefully converted and no integration and you complain of the Hindus being set apart. The proof is that despite Persian being made the state language other languages were allowed to thrive … This is why there are Sanskrit based languages still around in India today.

[The_Player]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@psyah

The proof is that despite Persian being made the state language other languages were allowed to thrive … This is why there are Sanskrit based languages still around in India today.

Once again, Muslim rule did not spread all over modern India. The region around Himalayas (Himachal, Uttaranchal), deep south (Travancore state) and parts of Rajasthan (Mewar) never came under Muslim rule.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@The_Player

Not sure what your point was but there were very few exceptions like Akbar who were not into conversion.

Who before Akbar in Mughal dynasty opt for conversion? Babar who died short after conquest of India? Unlucky Humayon, who wandered all his life in Sindh and Persia and could get throne in last years of his life. Even after Akbar, Jahangir and Shahjahan were not inclined to conversion. Aurangzeb is considered bigot, but did he really got people converted, nothing can be said with absolute authority. People after Aurangzeb to Bahadur Shah Zafar were busy in saving their little state. This shows that whole Mughal dynasty was not inclined to conversion over a period of almost more than 300 years.

[calypsodc]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@muqawwee123

Who before Akbar in Mughal dynasty opt for conversion? Babar who died short after conquest of India? Unlucky Humayon, who wandered all his life in Sindh and Persia and could get throne in last years of his life. Even after Akbar, Jahangir and Shahjahan were not inclined to conversion. Aurangzeb is considered bigot, but did he really got people converted, nothing can be said with absolute authority. People after Aurangzeb to Bahadur Shah Zafar were busy in saving their little state. This shows that whole Mughal dynasty was not inclined to conversion over a period of almost more than 300 years.

What about the Khilji dynasty as documented by Ibn Batuta?

[The_Player]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@muqawwee123

Who before Akbar in Mughal dynasty opt for conversion? Babar who died short after conquest of India? Unlucky Humayon, who wandered all his life in Sindh and Persia and could get throne in last years of his life. Even after Akbar, Jahangir and Shahjahan were not inclined to conversion. Aurangzeb is considered bigot, but did he really got people converted, nothing can be said with absolute authority. People after Aurangzeb to Bahadur Shah Zafar were busy in saving their little state. This shows that whole Mughal dynasty was not inclined to conversion over a period of almost more than 300 years.

Not just Mughal dynasty but Ghaznavids, Muhammad Ghori, Mamluks, Khiljis and Timur. Some opted for conversion and others just executed Hindus and other non-Muslims.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@calypsodc

What about the Khilji dynasty?

Details please. Some how, our texts don’t cover their aristocracies

[Contrarian]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@calypsodc

In a historic sense, u blame where the blame lies. Muslim invaders for being intolerant, hindu rulers for being weak and not defending their borders etc. Certain historical happenings have an effect even today. We should not shy away from what really happened and the consequences just because it makes some people uncomfortable. But we have to be ready to accept a different POV if presented with facts. We can only learn from the mistakes of history and move on. Can we blame the present day situation of the subcontinent on history ? No we need to learn to better ourselves. The present quagmire the countries are caught it is all us because of rising corruption, intolerance and laziness. Wait it looks like history seems to be repeating itself all over again…

I have absolutely no qualms looking at a different POV that isn’t painting Muslims invaders in a very flattering light, but the way you’re coming across it appears as if everything was hunky dory until Muslims appeared and Hindu rulers’ only fault was being weak. How can you so sure that your opinion and your sources may not have some inkling of bias in them? I am not saying that Muslim invaders didn’t commit any atrocity, but things under their rule can’t be as bad as their naysayers are claiming nor were they as exemplary as their cheerleaders would have us believe.

[The_Player]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@muqawwee123

Details please. Some how, our texts don’t cover their aristocracies

Khilji dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Propagation of IslamAccording to Ibn Batuta, the Khiljis encouraged conversion to Islam by making it customary to have the convert presented to the sultan (who would place a robe on him and reward him with gold bracelets).[SUP][18]](Khalji dynasty - Wikipedia)[/SUP] During Ikhtiyar Uddin Bakhtiyar Khilji’s control of Bengal, Muslim missionaries in India achieved their greatest success in the number of converts to Islam.[SUP][19]](Khalji dynasty - Wikipedia)[/SUP]

[muqawwee123]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@The_Player

Not just Mughal dynasty but Ghaznavids, Muhammad Ghori, Mamluks, Khiljis, Tughlaqs, Lodhis and Timur. Some opted for conversion and others just executed Hindus and other non-Muslims.

Most of these dynasties didn’t spare Muslims of India too. Why did you forget to mention Nadir Shah and Abdali, who were invited by people like Shah Waliullah against Maratha and they didn’t looted all without any discrimination of faiths. Most of the time, these wars and invasions were for loot and not for conversion. Even Ghaznavi who is reported as ‘But-Shikan’ idol-destroyer was more interested in the wealth of Somnath. He couldn’t see the Budhas of bamiyan on his way to India.

[ninja_hattori]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@The_Player

Khilji dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Propagation of Islam

According to Ibn Batuta, the Khiljis encouraged conversion to Islam by making it customary to have the convert presented to the sultan (who would place a robe on him and reward him with gold bracelets).[SUP][18]](Khalji dynasty - Wikipedia)[/SUP] During Ikhtiyar Uddin Bakhtiyar Khilji’s control of Bengal, Muslim missionaries in India achieved their greatest success in the number of converts to Islam.[SUP][19]](Khalji dynasty - Wikipedia)[/SUP]

are we talking about conversion or forced conversion…

[The_Player]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@muqawwee123

Details please. Some how, our texts don’t cover their aristocracies

This might be interesting too…

Persecution of Hindus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[muqawwee123]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@The_Player

Khilji dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Propagation of Islam

According to Ibn Batuta, the Khiljis encouraged conversion to Islam by making it customary to have the convert presented to the sultan (who would place a robe on him and reward him with gold bracelets).[SUP][18]](Khalji dynasty - Wikipedia)[/SUP] During Ikhtiyar Uddin Bakhtiyar Khilji’s control of Bengal, Muslim missionaries in India achieved their greatest success in the number of converts to Islam.[SUP][19]](Khalji dynasty - Wikipedia)[/SUP]

So there were motivated conversions besides forceful conversion. What are your views about the idea that many people converted to Islam in India due to social problems like caste system?

[The_Player]

Re: Most Persecuted Religions in History

@muqawwee123

Most of these dynasties didn’t spare Muslims of India too. Why did you forget to mention Nadir Shah and Abdali, who were invited by people like Shah Waliullah against Maratha and they didn’t looted all without any discrimination of faiths. Most of the time, these wars and invasions were for loot and not for conversion. Even Ghaznavi who is reported as ‘But-Shikan’ idol-destroyer was more interested in the wealth of Somnath. He couldn’t see the Budhas of bamiyan on his way to India.

I agree, but since the topic has veered to persecution of Hindus and others by Muslim rulers I wanted to stick to the topic. I dont deny that Muslims in India might have suffered against Muslim invaders from Central Asia but not as much as non-Muslims did.