[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
You argument is almost as bad as my "having a child" analogy! Any successful economy is based, on the end of the day, on a "buy-low sell-high principle". The bank buying the house and selling it you at a higher price is morally no different from a car dealership buying a car from a manufacturer and selling it on to you via hire-purchase for a higher price.
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That was not an analogy, That was merely a question I was asking. I am not the moral police of the world to decide what is moral and what is immoral. So according to you it's okay for a Dealer to sell a car for 14000 which he bought in 10000.
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And would you say that it is represents a higher quality of morals when a conventional bank lends you £100,000 and demands back £140,000 when you include interest? By what logic is that more moral than a bank buying a house for £100,000 and selling it to you for £140,000?
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That's exactly my point is - the Islamic Bank has reached the 140K figure by calculating the Mortgage Rate and is basically doing the same which is collecting the monthly instalment from you only the formula is little different, in the first case your principal is 100K and Compound Interest rate is X% whereas in the second case Principal is 140K and CI is 0%. But If you look at the way the Bank reached at 140K, it is same 100K + X% CI.
And yes in my view It is perfectly okay for a Bank to charge you Interest on the Loan they give to you.
No, it means you can't use money as a commodity. Investments are allowed. Be it shariah-compliant stocks, land, islamic bonds (zero coupon senior debt), etc.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
In Islam, one is immoral, and one is not. By modern-day Western standards, neither is an immoral act.
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It is really very hypocritical of you to declare West and western culture as Immoral at every given opportunity while living in a western country and enjoying the fruits of same West and Western Culture.
Are you telling me that in the East everything you do is moral and perfect ? Eastern Countries are the most corrupt nations in the world, perhaps that is also one of many moral acts of East.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
No, it means you can't use money as a commodity. Investments are allowed. Be it shariah-compliant stocks, land, islamic bonds (zero coupon senior debt), etc.
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But it is still making more money on your existing money.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Asif_k: *
It is really very hypocritical of you to declare West and western culture as Immoral at every given opportunity while living in a western country and enjoying the fruits of same West and Western Culture.
Are you telling me that in the East everything you do is moral and perfect ? Eastern Countries are the most corrupt nations in the world, perhaps that is also one of many moral acts of East.
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I don't see the hypocracy. Yes, I live in and have been raised in a Western environment, and I am the first to admit that I am far far more westernised than I am Eastern. I know that I will never ever fit in anywhere but in the west.
I am much more closely tied to western culture than I am to Pakistani culture. I'm practically a kaala angrez. However, just as Islamists in Pakistan criticise many aspects of Pakistani culture that they see as wrong, I, as an English Islamist, criticise many aspect of English and Western culture which I perceive as wrong. I don't indulge in those aspects of the local culture that I perceive as wrong.
And I agree. Behind the hypocracy of their societies, many, if not most Eastern countries, are morally bankrupt and corrupt.
Hence the need for Islamic reformation of society in both east and west to combat this immorality in the world :)
And the first step to combat this immorality is to point out those aspects of one's local culture that are immoral.
MS - You are contradicting yourself, first you said that in western culture it is not immoral to have sex before marriage and now you claim yourself to be a western ? That means either you ,a Westerner, are also a part of such immoral act or you have made a very generalised statement. Pre-marital sex is not a western thing either. It has been there in the east for ages.
Secondly, what may be Moral for you can lool like pure stupidity to others like Islamic views on Banking and investment. Having four wives may be very moral and Islamic for you, but for me it is a disgusting thing.
**Originally posted by Asif_k: *
MS - You are contradicting yourself, first you said that in western culture it is not immoral to have sex before marriage and now you claim yourself to be a western ?*
I don't see a contradiction here. He said "far more westerneized", not "fully westernized". Do you see a difference?
...Pre-marital sex is not a western thing either. It has been there in the east for ages.
True, but most of so-called East still considers it immoral, however "west" has stopped calling/considering it immoral. "west" I believe still considers "out-of-wedlock" sex as "immoral", why?
You said that you are not moral police of the world, its understandable as you don't hold a Holy book as your full reference, you hold a "dynamic/moving/chaging reference" as your ground.
Bank buy house and renting is good trick I think. Ok.
why intrest is banded by muslim? very big intrest bad I agree but why even 4% or 5% or like that also banded? only old custom I think...not good now days
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
I don't see a contradiction here. He said "far more westerneized", not "fully westernized". Do you see a difference?
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CL - Who decides who is a 'Fully Westernized' person ? You ?? Give me a Break.
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True, but most of so-called East still considers it immoral, however "west" has stopped calling/considering it immoral.
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It's the hypocrisy of the so called 'East' they do it despite considering it IMMORAL. Your view of West is very limited ans skewed.
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You said that you are not moral police of the world, its understandable as you don't hold a Holy book as your full reference, you hold a "dynamic/moving/chaging reference" as your ground.
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So just because you have a Holy book in your Hand, you become the Moral Police of the world ?? Whoever doesn't agree with you becomes Immoral ? Have you done everything in your life according to the Book ? Or do you do everything according to the book ?? If not, then just Shut up.
you cannot charge interest, there must be risk involved i.e. no fixed rates. please don't talk about things you have no knowledge of. go worship tendulkar and ask him for a home loan.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Asif_k: *
So that means one can not do any kind of investment ?? After all Investment is making more money on your existing money. no ??
[/QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Asif_k: *
CL - Who decides who is a ‘Fully Westernized’ person ? You ?? Give me a Break.
Sure, you can get a break. If one agrees to all “western” values, then he is fully westernized, isn’t he?
It’s the hypocrisy of the so called ‘East’ they do it despite considering it IMMORAL. Your view of West is very limited ans skewed.
I don’t think “East” is very moral either, but the values it “considers” as “moral” are “moral”.
**So just because you have a Holy book in your Hand, you become the Moral Police of the world ?? Whoever doesn’t agree with you becomes Immoral ? Have you done everything in your life according to the Book ? Or do you do everything according to the book ?? If not, then just Shut up. **
I don’t want to be a moral police too, but my point is that it becomes very easy to analyse/make opinion when you have a something as a “reference point”.
“Whoever doesn’t agree with you becomes Immoral ?”
No, whoever doesn’t agree with “Book” becomes immoral,
In order to make opinion/judge about “black/white” you don’t necessarily have to be a black/white but be able to “distinguish”, compare each other. Similarly, in order to check if something is “moral” or “immoral” I would check the “reference” and not check myself, now you can shut up
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
Sure, you can get a break. If one agrees to all "western" values, then he is fully westernized, isn't he?
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So it's possible to live in West and remain Moral, right ?? It is also possible that for some Westerners 'Pre-Marital Sex' is immoral, No ?
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I don't want to be a moral police too, but my point is that it becomes very easy to analyse/make opinion when you have a something as a "reference point".
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And you do everything according to the 'Reference point' ? You still didn't answer my question - Have you done everything in your life according to the book ??
Once again what may be immoral for you can look like pure stupidity to others and you should do what you want and let others do what they want. If you think you can pay 140K for a 100K house, go ahead pay for it. Dont preach it to others that it is a moral thing to do and whoever doesn't buy the house that way is doing an immoral thing. I dont need to look into any holy book to find out the morality of such things.
Do Islamic Banks have FIXED DEPOSITS ?? Ever wondered how it works ?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by funguy: *
Mad Scientist, so in other words, the Islamic Interest - free bank is ONLY changing the name of interest to rent. What's the difference if you will end up paying 140,000 anyway?. Call it rent ot interest it is profit that the bank is making on you. Doesn't make sense to me.
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No difference except different word R used to get around sharia'h.
**Originally posted by Asif_k: *
So it's possible to live in West and remain Moral, right ?? It is also possible that for some Westerners 'Pre-Marital Sex' is immoral, No ?*
Its possible that many Westerners consider 'pre-marital sex' as immoral, its the society as a whole/majority which has accepted this as something "normal" or "acceptable" thats why considered as "Western" value. Though it could be happening more in Eastern countries than "Western".
*And you do everything according to the 'Reference point' ? You still didn't answer my question - Have you done everything in your life according to the book ?? *
Your question does not need any answer, I'll still answer it. I follow as much as I can. I am sinful, but that does not take my ability to distinguish good from bad (halal from haram) especially when all the Rules for comparison are written for reference.
Once again what may be immoral for you can look like pure stupidity to others and you should do what you want and let others do what they want. If you think you can pay 140K for a 100K house, go ahead pay for it. Dont preach it to others that it is a moral thing to do and whoever doesn't buy the house that way is doing an immoral thing. I dont need to look into any holy book to find out the morality of such things.
Not buying houses via "conventional" financing is something for "Muslims" so intent is to address those audience who are "interested" in following. If you don't wanna follow it nobody is coming around to kick you.
*Do Islamic Banks have FIXED DEPOSITS ?? Ever wondered how it works ? *
Yes, many banks have "Fixed Deposits" naming some bank as "Islamic" does not automatically qualify it as Islamic Bank following Shariah. Even many "Profit & Loss" accounts in Pakistan banks are interet bearing accounts, they simply renamed the accounts. Thats why whenever I buy a bank's service I make sure that they are not cheating on me.
CL - Australia, New Zealand, Japan, China, Singapore, Thailand etc are in East and take a look at their societies and you will notice that for them there is nothing immoral with pre-marital sex.
If you yourself do lot of immoral things and do not follow the book then what gives you a right to declare others' act as immoral. Let god be the judge and let him decide what is immoral and moral. Let him decide If I have committed a sin.
**Originally posted by Asif_k: *
CL - Australia, New Zealand, Japan, China, Singapore, Thailand etc are in East and take a look at their societies and you will notice that for them there is nothing immoral with pre-marital sex.*
I agree, we can give up use of "East" or "West" and discuss as whats "moral" and "immoral" as in Pakistan at least , West = Europe+America.
*If you yourself do lot of immoral things and do not follow the book then what gives you a right to declare others' act as immoral. Let god be the judge and let him decide what is immoral and moral. Let him decide If I have committed a sin. *
Don't tell me all the judges in all the courts of the world are perfect human being. I'm better because I'm not sending anyone to jail/punishment :p
The very same God you are talking about has given a book which tells us what is "good" and what is "bad" which is our guide (whether we use it or not its there). Everyone has all the rights to call spade a spade.
It is ridiculous to compare yourself and your morality talk with a Legal/Judicial System. Nowhere in the world Judges in the Court room punish you for doing immoral things. They punish you for the Crime you commit (based on the evidence) or the law you may violate. There is no punishment by the judges for doing moral/immoral things.
The same god has also given me a mind and power to interpret thing (written in the holy book) logically so that I dont have to blindly follow the interpretation of every Mullah. You have a right to call a spade and spade but you do not have the right to declare everyone Immoral just because they interpret the Holy book Logically. Try excercising your right of preaching your morality Talk in Public, you will be deported
*Originally posted by Asif_k: *
It is ridiculous to compare yourself and your morality talk with a Legal/Judicial System. Nowhere in the world Judges in the Court room punish you for doing immoral things. They punish you for the Crime you commit (based on the evidence) or the law you may violate. There is no punishment by the judges for doing moral/immoral things.
Now tell me if those judges who punish for crimes never committed any crime.
**The same god has also given me a mind and power to interpret thing (written in the holy book) logically so that I dont have to blindly follow the interpretation of every Mullah. You have a right to call a spade and spade but you do not have the right to declare everyone Immoral just because they interpret the Holy book Logically. Try excercising your right of preaching your morality Talk in Public, you will be deported **
I only call “immoral” what God called “immoral”, if you think you can twist and interpret it differently then go ahead I don’t need a mullah either, but I do read what they have to say and follow if it makes sense. I see some insecurity in you (talk about deportation). Have you never heard people talking on radio about gay/lesbian issues? similarly many have discussed from “moral/immoral” perspective, have you ever heard if they were deported. talkin about “deportation”
