Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
People change. Maybe she does not subscribe to your way of thinking anymore.
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
she was just one example.. it’s just not about her ..it’s about different people from different walks of life who just completely do alot of bad deeds without regret. What is their ‘excuse’ for it : poverty, parents’ neglect, peer pressure or their inward morality itself is at fault 
like David Cameron’s speech in the Parliament a day or two before in which he mentioned that these riots cannot be directly attributed to poverty or lack of justice but rather the lack of values in the society ..and I am inclined to agree with that.
Am sure a lot of the rioters out of them esp the ones who probably had no clue who Mark Duggan was just got into the whole mess because for them it meant freebies from their favourite stores and looting…pretending to help a bleeding kid and stealing things from his bag … poverty, parents’ neglect, peer pressure or the lack of conscience on its own
too much philosophy for Life1 I wonder ? 
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
^yes…bring some evil in-laws sob story…
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
^lol am PRETTY sure i posted in the right forum :halo:
if i needed a religious debate i would have opened it in the Religion section
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
It's not just opportunity...it's the upbringing and definitely the person themselves. If parents won't instill the ability to make the right decisions independently of the 4 walls of their house- what exactly are they expecting? So many desi girls I know went to college and did those messed up things you mentioned, because their parents never trusted them to make the right decision from day 1. These kids never learned the consequences of bad decisions, or how to correct their own mistakes.
They really only knew that they wanted to get avoid being yelled at etc, while living at home.
When I went to college, I was the first girl in my family allowed to stay overnight for tournaments etc. Granted, my older sister accompanied me for a long time, but when my parents saw that I wasn't interested in drinking, partying etc, they let go a little. My oldest sister had a lot to do with that. I was thankful for the experience, because it taught me that opportunity wasn't the only thing standing in my way to making that bad decision. There were plenty of times when I could have gotten drunk, and no one would have known. I chose not to, and my friends respected me even more for it.
You need the chance to make the wrong decision and right decision, for yourself. That poor girl, very apparently, never got the chance to actually grow up.
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
Can negative influences in terms of friends, the general people around have such a profound impact on someone? Does parents' 'tarbyat' have no role at all once someone isnt under their supervision or are on their own?
I ask this coz I am quite upset by someone I know during my middle and high school who was a regular nice girl with very decent and moderately religious parents. I had never seen her inappropriately dressed up or saying anything outrageous. And now after like almost 10 years - we meet on facebook again ! and she has just completely transformed ... wears the skimpiest clothes ever, apparently lives with her gora boyfriend and openly talks of the relationship, the living together part, drinking, partying without any regret and no strings attached.
So why do people change?! Is morality just lack of opportunity or immorality is just extreme vulnerability ?
If you had lived alone and MashaAllah kept yourself on the right path ..how did you manage to protect yourself in moderation and not go overboard on either way - in terms of our cultural as well as religious values !
Can peer pressure take over so easily ?
Well i live alone and have been living alone for quiet a long time. But Alhamdulli'lah i have never indulged myself into drinking, girls or even partying. My main focus is to be stable and get educated. And i guess Alhamdulli'lah what holded me back from not committing into wrongful act is because my fear of Allah and know that i will die one day and will be answerable for my deeds.
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
^I sort of differ with the 'upbringing' idea. I know many people who were brought up in well educated, good families but still turned out to be a mess. There are like SO many factors at play when someone does smtng haram or evil. And these factors dont even have to be external - they can be psychological, personal etc. If they had to do with upbringing, you would expect these people to be doing haram all their life but many many people change and become good people after some of the destructive factors in their lives settle down.
Those who have their family's support are the fortunate ones. Not everyone has that support and many people learn after they have made the mistakes. So, I am not sure if I can actually label someone who I see is doing smtng haram as 'lacking morals' or 'opportunistic'.
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
Hulahoop Queen brought up very good points indeed. And even i have noticed that those who are "educated" with good families turned out to be mess. That is why, i always said that, if you ever want to know someone. You need to know two things:
-Her/His character.
-Friends he/she hangs out with.
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
Its a human nature some people change with the passage of time. Good becomes bad and bad becomes good.
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
Great thread. The example is just an example and by no means a judgement.I think people change for the negative because somewhere inside of them they were not satisfied with the values that were being taught to them...perhaps there was a lack of understanding as to why some acts are considered immoral, the consequences of the acts...and so once such people are independent, they find it easy to cross over because their conscience is ok...they probablynfind comfort in what most people are doing rather than a select few...dunno...
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
People go from bad to worse sometimes cause they lived under a very protected environment once they come out of that protection they have freedom they are not able to digest the freedom. Same logic goes with our country we as a nation were not able to digest the freedom and since than country is going down the drain.
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
^I sort of differ with the 'upbringing' idea. I know many people who were brought up in well educated, good families but still turned out to be a mess. There are like SO many factors at play when someone does smtng haram or evil. And these factors dont even have to be external - they can be psychological, personal etc. If they had to do with upbringing, you would expect these people to be doing haram all their life but many many people change and become good people after some of the destructive factors in their lives settle down.
Those who have their family's support are the fortunate ones. Not everyone has that support and many people learn after they have made the mistakes. So, I am not sure if I can actually label someone who I see is doing smtng haram as 'lacking morals' or 'opportunistic'.
exactly ! See that's how I put it. Our morality is actually surrounded by two circles of factors/pressures etc.
The outer circle would mainly include our parents, family (the sort we are raised into, our parents' trust and the way they brought us up..like without the strict 'mahol' and explaining patiently and each time WHY some things are bad but not just the plain sentence *'i forbid you to do so..or that it is completely wrong'. *The outer circle also includes friends and the company we have...as well as circumstances around us.
the inner circle would be something that is completely out of our parents etc's hands and at times ours too ..and that would be our conscience, inner intentions, the satanic thoughts and *'waswase' *that come haunt every average person 'that do this ..nobody is looking at you...you can easily get away from it' .
So yes upbringing does have a role but the inner circle factors can drive a person to either way when the time comes.
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
To have a discussion on morals you need to first define what are morals and values?
Just because someone do not subscribe to your religious commandments, does not make them immoral. They just have different set of morals.
People who are claiming to live a moral life with out the supervision of parents are doing so because of their religious affiliation. They have a believe that drinking, premarital sex and wearing skirts is a MAJOR sin and they do not want to bear the consequence in afterlife.
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
I am a born and practicing Muslim alhamdolilah but my non Muslim friends ask me:
- Why I don't drink? I remind them about their hangovers, foolish decisions last friday night.
- Why I prefer conservative Muslim women? I remind them about their cheating girlfriends.
- Why I don't look at scantily clad women? I remind them about how they would feel about their female relatives being leered at.
- Why I don't eat pork? I ask them have they seen a pig in their natural habitat? I remind them that "eating like a pig" or "pigging out" have specific connotations.
My close friends are all non Muslim (Christian, Agnostic, Jewish, Mormon etc) and they understand where I am coming from. Islam has made certain things halal, others haram not just on whim, but rather to protect us from harms way. There IS a clear moral code, its NOT relative -- if you are Muslim, Christian or Jew in name only, don't try to make excuses over your moral failures, either stop it or stop calling yourself of X faith.
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
^I don't see why someone should not call themselves a Muslim. Just because I am sinning DOES NOT take me out of the folds of Islam (other than Shirk). Correct me if I am wrong? I mean if I am sinning, that does not mean I am denying the oneness of Allah swt.
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
^
There is a difference between the theological definition of Muslim and Muslim within the social construct. So you are a Muslim if you say the shahadah, however if your not practicing (in fact living a non Muslim lifestyle) then don't front as in "get wasted on a thursday night and show up jumah and lecture others."
We are all sinners and sin everyday, however there is a difference between those who repent/try to avoid the sins and those who are living that lifestyle and do not change their ways.
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
^lecture..ofcourse not. But if I get drunk on Thurs and show up to Jummah prayer, noone can stop me from doing that either.
Plus, how do you know they wont ever change their ways?
PLUS, there MUST be SMTNG within them that still makes them come to jummah even after getting drunk on a thurs night.
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
Can negative influences in terms of friends, the general people around have such a profound impact on someone? Does parents' 'tarbyat' have no role at all once someone isnt under their supervision or are on their own?
I ask this coz I am quite upset by someone I know during my middle and high school who was a regular nice girl with very decent and moderately religious parents. I had never seen her inappropriately dressed up or saying anything outrageous. And now after like almost 10 years - we meet on facebook again ! and she has just completely transformed ... wears the skimpiest clothes ever, apparently lives with her gora boyfriend and openly talks of the relationship, the living together part, drinking, partying without any regret and no strings attached.
So why do people change?! Is morality just lack of opportunity or immorality is just extreme vulnerability ?
If you had lived alone and MashaAllah kept yourself on the right path ..how did you manage to protect yourself in moderation and not go overboard on either way - in terms of our cultural as well as religious values !
Can peer pressure take over so easily ?
Well a person is known by his friends and company he/she keeps. Having said that, there could be many factors which have made this person this way. In the end, all we could do is to pray for ourselves and them.
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
^lecture..ofcourse not. But if I get drunk on Thurs and show up to Jummah prayer, noone can stop me from doing that either.
Plus, how do you know they wont ever change their ways?
PLUS, there MUST be SMTNG within them that still makes them come to jummah even after getting drunk on a thurs night.
I think its pure hypocrisy. I'd respect someone who may have been born Muslim and does haram things but does not bring religion into the mix. Being Muslim is both belief and practice.
If they change their ways then of course they would be welcome to Mosque or where ever.
Re: Morality = lack of opportunity only ??
I think its pure hypocrisy. I'd respect someone who may have been born Muslim and does haram things but does not bring religion into the mix. Being Muslim is both belief and practice.
If they change their ways then of course they would be welcome to Mosque or where ever.
I partially agree. However Allah says that He would forgive all sins except 'Shirk'. (and that too if someone repents and sincerely makes an effort to stay away from it, Allah SWT would forgive him too.
Even the best of Muslims have some weak moments at one time or the other. Thus we have been given Surah Falak and Surah Naas to pray from Satan's shar and waswasay.
IMO I would respect a person for the act he/she is doing currently which is good. I wouldn't be concerned about their past. But if they keep going back and repeating the same thing I woud lose respect for that person eventually. Infact anyone would.